broken dreams - new cartridge help please!

Hello Rick, just buy yourself a new cartridge (or lightly used one), do not bother with re-tippers, buy exactly what cartridge designed is made. Do you know the effective mass of your tonearm to select a cartridge ? 

 

@big_greg 

Yes, the story about VdH cartridge refurbidhed by VdH himself is a good example of my theory, because the SoundSmith or even less qualified retippers (there are a bunch of them around) in this case is the worst scenario for this High-End cartridge. VdH is using exclussive materials for his High-End cartridges. He's expensive, but you know why. 

Trying completely different cartridge is also good idea, because there are many cartridges of any kind that we never tried yet. 

Can you expand on why you would suggest someone should buy a used cartridge over a retipped cartridge?

@big_greg

J.Carr explained it on this forum much better than me. But i will try again.

Just because you, me or anyone else have no idea about canculations made by the original cartridge designed for a certain high-end model - this is the reason why certain type of cantilever and stylus has been used (most of them are exclussively made for one particular brand and not available to anyone else, never ).

You can "upgrade" only cheap/average cartridges when you change one cantilever to another, or one stylus type to another. But your retipper can’t upgrade a state of the art high-end cartridge made by well knowd cartridge designers, just becase your retipped has no clue about many aspect of the original design, material and more important a calculation to match them together.

The right way to "retip" or "refurbish" a high-end cartridge is to send it to the original manufacturer and original designer who can work on it.

If you work on it with somebody else then you have no idea what you will get and it’s no longer an original cartridge. Maybe you will like it, maybe not, but this is not the original cartridge (cantilever, stylus mass, lengh, thickness can be way different compared to the original).

It’s funny when people are so concerned about cartridge alignment and micron difference between the protractors, vta or sra, but can accept a third-party cantilever or stylus instead of the original (sometimes unique) stylus/cantilever combo on their MC cartridges.

I don’t care what a honest retipper will tell me, i know that he does not have an access to the original materials available only to the original manufacturer. Also i’ve seen a pictures of retipped cartridges under microscope and compared them to the originals. The originals are way more accurate (or completely different).

And if we’re talking about just re-tip (on existing cantilever) then you will see the enormous amount of glue added by the retipper.

This is why i think it’s better to buy another cartridge NEW or LIGHTLY USED if the cost of the retip/refurbish by the original manufacturer is too much for a user.

So many great MC or MM cartridges available on the market for under $1k (new or used), this is why i think an OP could simply try another cartridge made by well known designer.

I understand that it is not the original, but I am hoping it will sound better than any cartridge I could get for under $500.

Why do you think so ? Last year i’ve bought on ebay Dynavector 23RS MR with Ruby cantilever NOS and Dynavector KARAT 17DS MR with Diamond cantilever for about $500 each. Diamond is the most expensive and exotic cantilever. Both carts are fully original, both with MicroReach tips. Both are LOMC made in the 80’s.

The quality can be superb even for a relatively low price, you never know how cheap you can buy unused vintage cartridge online.

Instead you paid $500 just for the cantilever/stylus and repair fee. Of cource it’s up to you, but the price for repair job and materials is equal to the price of the new cartridge. I have no idea why people think that $500 for repair with third-party parts (not the original) is cheap in this case?

@uberwaltz

Not everyone has the love or trust for vintage carts as you do.

I have a few and pretty happy and comfortable with buying more and learning but it is not for all types.

Of course, but destroying ultra High-End cartridges (voiced by world’s best cartridge designers) with third-party vendors is not for everyone too. It’s like leaving your Porsche at Ford Car Service to replace the most important part in the engine with "something else" to say "ohh, that was cheaper and much better than the original". It could be a project, experiment or whatever, but definitely not the right way to treat ultra high-end cartridges. This is a compromise, nothing else.

@johnto

If you’re getting a $2400 cartridge fixed for under $500 its $2000 cheaper than buying a new one.

If you’re sending your High-End cartridge to a third-party vendor you have no idea what you will get. You digits means nothing. If you can’t send a cartridge for rebuild to the original manufacturer (read a cartridge designer) why you’re buyin such expensive cartridge? Just to send it to third-party vendor ? I just don’t understand the logic, really. You want a US vendor to fix a Japanese cartridge from a well known designer ? If the original designer is available this is the best way to fix a cartridge if you really like the cartridge.

My rebuilts have sounded good or better than new.

I often read such comments on the forums, seems like a third-party service is always better than original cartridges voiced and tuned by legendary cartridge designers?

You’re free to believe in this BS, but you can ask any cartridge designer (if you can) why it’s not true, luckily we have Jonathan Carr on our forum and he explained why it’s not a good idea.

Your cartridge can be better than the original only if you’re upgrading an entry level cartridge with some better and more expensive parts such as cantilever and stylus tip.

It’s funny to see our Mexican posts when he’s contradict with himself.
Once he told us that only Ortofon can do the job to refurbish Ortofon cartridges, because they are so special and have an access to their own exclussively made materials, now he said that for another cartridge brands it does not matter. What a BS! This is typical double standards!

If anyone would like to re-cantilever VdH cartridge not by Mr.VdH himself, but at VAS or at Kim then it’s a downgrade for sure. Much lower price, but a downgrade in quality. This rule is the same for all ultra high-end cartridges from well known designers.

You want to believe that all the cartridges must be send to SoundSmith or whatever retipper for an "upgrade" ?? Mystically 99% of the owners yelling "my cartridge is better than the original", but only a few can actually compare an original cartridge and another refurbished sample not by faulty memories, but in real time. We often see a refurbished cartridges for sale for some reason.

It also make me laugh when audiophiles claiming they are able to hear a tiny the difference in VTA or VTF or micron difference in cartridge alignment, or even a f*****g fuse (omg), but not able to hear an entirely different cantilever/stylus mounted by some third-party vendor on a bench at his garage on some ultra high-end cartridge from world famous cartridge designer who used exclussive parts for his cart, voiced and tuned accordingly after a years of try and errors.

Read an old J.Carr’s comment and learn a bit:

Changing only the stylus will alter the sound less than if the cantilever material is changed. When a cartridge is designed, the designer will consider the moving mass (sum of the stylus, cantilever and coils), the resonant character of the cantilever, and the (sonic) propagation velocity of the cantilever (affected by the cantilever’s mass and rigidity), then choose the suspension and dampers accordingly. If you change the cantilever material, you are effectively throwing the original designer’s calculations away.

There is much more (far more than what I have written above) to rebuilding a cartridge than affixing a new stylus or altering the cantilever. In over 30 years of involvement in the phono cartridge industry, I have not seen one retipper who has presented the entire story, who has effectively said "Here are the all of the considerations. Here are the cons as well as the pros. Make a wise choice that is best for you".

To retip a cartridge that was originally equipped with a stylus made by one manufacturer with one made by a different manufacturer is like rebuilding a Porsche engine with Jaguar pistons and crankshaft - the components used for rebuilding may be of high quality, but the design philosophy is rather different from the original.

@vasaudio

I understand the point you are trying to make about retipping not being original but if I can get it 95% of the way there

With all my respect, i think it depends of the exact cartridge model.

I’ve owned refurbished cartridges, i wish to believe they are very close to the original, but when i compared them to the original they are not even close. Comparison is the key, we must have two samples to compare A/B in our systems. I did that, not even close (it wasn’t your job, but another popular retipper).

Just think of it like destroying a car engine. Even if you get a replacement engine from the manufacturer and when to the dealership to install it, it will not be the same as original because it won’t fit exactly like original ...

Yes, this is the reason why most of the manufacturers of ultra high-end do not bother with refurbishing or re-tip, they are simply offering a brand new cartridge for 60% of the retail (under their exchange programm via official distributors).

I am not the one who’s ready to pay 60% of retail when it comes to $3-5k cartridge, but for many serious audiophiles it is not a problem at all. My point is that when someone jump to a premium category he must stay there, it will cost a lot, but this is a premium segment (it’s always like that). For "normal" people we have tons of amazing cartridges to choose for $300-1500 (NOS, still sealed, lightly used or even brand new from honest sellers, from grey market sellers etc).

It’s not necessary trying to be super cool buying a Porsche if you can’t even pay for service. This is my point.

@rykk999

It’s a metaphor, nothing personal. You can ignore my statement (i don’t own a car and i don’t design cartridges), but read what a Lyra Cartridge designer (Jonathan Carr) posted long time ago, he is one of the most knowledgeable person on this forum when it comes to MC cartridges. I hope you know his own brand Lyra?

Boron cantilevers are all different, LineContact type diamonds are also different. This is what makes one cartridge different from another, but more important how all these parts work together and here we come to a calculation and some sort of secrets that only original cartridge designer understand.

I decided not to bother with my $4-5k LOMC cartridge when i realized no one can do what Nakatsuka-San is doing. Downgrading an ultra-high ends is not what i need. Instead, i just bought another cartridge and start my own reasearch by trying many different cartridges, they are all much lower cost (under $1.5). You know what? I am much more happy with a result. Same about refurbished or re-tipped vintage MM, the originals are superior, in fact most of them superior even compared to some very expensive MC (but this is another story).

I will repead that i often see re-tipped and refurbished cartridges on sale after people raving about them claiming they are better than the original.

Practically an MM and MI cartridges are so much better, even everyone’s favorite re-tipped always claiming the MI are much better than any MC (watch his lecture here). If Peter retipped many thousands cartridges and still pretty sure than MI is better then maybe all you need is his MI with replaceable stylus ?

I am sure others can offer suggestions as well.  All of the MM’s that I have used with the EAR have been vintage MM’s and not that easy to find: AT ATML170-OCC

AT-ML170 OCC is amazing MM cartridge, no doubt.  
The AT-ML180 OCC or OFC is even better. 

More affordable and not so rare is AT-ML150 OCC with Beryllium cantilever and MicroLine stylus ! Highly recommended if the budget is not high. 

Rare Sony XL-50 (MM) is my new discovery (Boron Pipe cantilever).

I can add in the top list (they are very expensive): Grace F-14 or LEVEL II with Beryllium, Ruby, Sapphire or Boron cantilevers, those carts have the best profiles (MicroRidge). Amazing cartridges, expecially LC-OFC versions. 

You can always try F-9 with some nice styli if the budget for Grace is not high. 

Definitely the Victor cartridges: X-1II or X-1IIe 

I think I would like to try a good MM with the EAR 834P - I am open to trying something vintage, but not coming up with availability on the ones mentioned above.

@rykk999
If you want something serious under $700, not just a waste of time and money on average modern MM, then look for vintage Audio-Technica AT-ML150 OCC, Stanton SC-100 WOS or 980, Pickering XSV-3000 or higher number models. Maybe Grace F-9, Victor X-1IIe, Sony XL-50.

Those cartridges are definitely superior to almost everything in MM field you can find today. The reason is the best motors, the coil wiring like AT's OCC, the cantilever (often Boron and Beryllium), the stylus tip (often MicroLine, Stereohedron). And the price for them all is something like $400-700.

it depends on the arm, but AT, Victor, Sony are mid compliance and fine almost for any tonearm. The Stanton, Pickering, Grace are high compliance and better on lightweight arms.

Hope it will help