Most important of all, enjoy the music. :-)
You said that, enjoy what you have, one day you might not be able to.
Happy spinning.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
I can add some insight regarding using the TMD bearing versus the standard bearing in a Transrotor Apollon turntable. It is not a Fat Bob S, but it is using the same TMD bearing. The Brinkmann Bardo costs nearly twice as much as the Fat Bob S in Germany. I do not have much information regarding the Brinkmann except that it is also a fine turntable and have seen and heard it at various audio shows in Germany.
I use three 180mm short drive belts. In addition, my Apollon has been modded to every factory upgrade possible. 80mm platter, 3M Konstant 3 motor controller, and the TMD bearing. Prior to the TMD bearing upgrade, my turntable would free wheel for a while before it would stop and the start up from a stop was easier. When I added the TMD bearing; the force of the magnets are powerful on the TMD bearing assembly which now cause the platter start and stops to be more forceful as the inertia of either start or stop must overcome the magnetic field during initial start up and when you stop. When I mean forceful, the initial spin requires a good amount of torque to spin the platter from a stop. I do notice as my belts get older, I need to help the platter along, well with almost a 30 lb platter with record clamp, maybe it ought to be for every start, regardless of age of the belts, that is a lot of strain for any belt, even three.
The main differences I notice, and this is spoken from layman's terms as I do not claim to be any expert in such technology, is that the speed of the platter is a lot more stable, without speed drift that seemed to creep in every so often with the non-magnetic platter, as measured by my strobe disk. I think in part this is more of an indication of the electrical fluctuations than anything and to a degree to the non TMD platter versus the TMD platter. With the TMD, the effect of the electrical fluctuations have less of an effect on the platter causing the speed to remain more stable. I wish that the Transrotor had some type of speed controller that shows the speed in actual time and corrects the speed as needed. The upgraded speed controller is excellent and provides quartz controlled power to three motors, and I can adjust the speed as necessary after I measure it using the strobe disk or the Sutherland Timeline.
Okay, what does this boil down to? It means, that when I bought the TMD option, I thought of the physics, from a novice point of view and related that to many years as an audio geek, and decided that TMD was worth the upgrade, because the drifting speed in turntables I had before were present in other belt driven turntables I have owned; Panasonic, Pioneer, and the only non belt driven turntable I owned, the Denon DP62L, which was always speed stable. I never second guessed my decision, and despite looking at some other costlier options, I am pretty sure I will be content for the rest of my life with the TMD option, especially on the TR Apollon. The Fat Bob S has received some excellent reviews here in Germany and other parts of the world.
I hope this gives you a personal perspective concerning the TMD bearing and what it did to help me enjoy listening to music even more, in which case, I never can get enough.
Good luck with your decision, you will be happy either no matter what decision you make, it is for yourself after all.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
Hi Melbguy,
You are quite welcome. I think you made a wise choice for yourself based on many factors. I have never ever considered the TR TMD or belt drive system a hindrance to the sound and quality of the music. It is just astounding; take for example, the leading edge of a drum that cracks from nowhere astonishes me every time. This is a result of music emanating out of the black background so to speak, with explosive and revealing dynamic power. It is this leading edge of the drum thwack or snare that really fascinates among other things. Mids and highs are fantastic and voices are startling realistic with the same sense of emotion and subtle clarity of the breathings, lips parting and all of the voice particulars that appears as if the musician is in the room, which makes for a great listening session. The voices, when they appear out of the black sometimes can make you look around and or jump as you truly think that someone is in the room with you. It never ceases to amaze me how clear and delineated all of these minor details add up to make the greater sum of the music that much better. The Dave Brubeck Time Out song with the drum and cymbal solo really exonerates the attributes from which the source material is played on. Again, the initial attack of the drum is very powerful and in other songs from other groups where the drum has an initial attack such as Aerosmith, Pablo Cruise and ELO, the bass notes and mid bass are incredulous. I am certain that the sum of my system has a lot do with the my experience, however, the source made all of the difference in me being able to tell you about the minor details I am describing, based on the before and after experience with the TMD and 80MM platter. The TR rests on a 290lb Clearaudio Mont Blanc turntable stand and I have never experienced feedback, wow and flutter or otherwise when I subject my system to the full throttle of two 140 watts mono amps and two 15 subs (subs for rock and loud parties).
Regarding the mods and prices compared to the Brinkmann, the TR can add up to cost as much or more as a Brinkmann, I stated the base price in Germany of the TR not including the bigger platter, extra motors, added arm base, tone-arm, and cartridge. Adding all of these mods will add a lot to the price of the TR. Geez, I feel like I am modding my corvette. Also, modding the Bardo will bring up the price as well.
Have fun with your new turntable and keep us informed on how you mod it.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
Melbguy1,
Hi. How are you enjoying the Transrotor?
In the case of vibrations, wow and flutter, and distortion with the Fat B and the Apollon, the motors are outboard and isolated separately from the platter assembly, negating any direct vibrational affects. Plus, each motor assembly is I believe internally damped with some interesting advanced technology to mitigate any noises or vibrations that might emanate from the motor assembly. Having three motors, I can state that I do not hear, feel vibrations, nor have I had any issues, whatsoever. The measured performance of using the TMD combined with the Transrotor motors, based on the classic Pabst technology, is so miniscule, that traditional Wow and Flutter measurements are hard to measure.
In fact, the combination of TMD and outboard motors used caused quite a stir in a German magazine a few years ago due to the extremely low measured distortion; comparably lower than some direct drive models.
The combination of the TMD and the isolated outboard motors add to the overall benefit of creating an extremely quiet and stunning musical presentation.
I am also happy to state that I do not have any problems many people report regarding vibrations, sensitivity, or influences from the external environment, just pure musical bliss.
Enjoy!
Ciao,
Audioquest4life
|
@Lewm,
"(Did I read somewhere that some Transrotor aficionados prefer to pass up on the TMD option? If so, that's telling.)"
Not from me:)-. I cannot substantiate that statement. I went from a non TMD bearing assembly and then upgraded incrementally until I had no more upgrades to make. I started with the 80mm platter (teller auf Deutsche) and the TMD bearing assembly. My initial impressions of that first upgrade to the TMD and larger teller; increased transient response, better attack, and more bass.
I am very happy with these upgrades and thus cannot relate to any negatives about this type of setup. I love to listen to music, what you and others all do, and at the end of the day, equate such mods, as basics for men in particular, as my wife has stated, the same as modding ones Harley Davidson or Corvette.
On another note. I just love what you did with your DP80. I have a DP62L that needs some serious work, I want to bring it back into service for our living room system. I do not know where to start. It spins, but the front Denon light is inop and the arm is bent ( a result of a very Psychotic ex-wife). I only have one arm, the bent S arm, and only one weight. I hope to revive it someday, I need to find someone who can do some repairs. Do you have any tips? Thanks.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life
|
Lemn,
Thank you for the information. I will take you up on your offer. I will send you a private e-mail soon.
Ciao,
Nick |
Hi Lewm,
I used Google Chrome and translated to English to find the differences between TMD and FMD
This link covers FMD
http://www.audio.de/testbericht/der-grosse-transrotor-rondino-fuer-11000-euro-1093443.html
This link covers TMD:
http://www.hifi-regler.de/shop/transrotor/transrotor_tmd_lager_60_mm.php?SID=32b425f2710b79c916d273ffc6305f2f
I used the Google Chrome translate. I can speak, read and write auf Deutsche. The FMD appears to still be a belt drive type system, but with another magnetic bearing for the driving belt, versus the magnetic bearing for the platter itself.
I guess you could say this would be like modding your Harley with every chrome accessory possible.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
Hi Lewm,
"Maybe I can get to hear Audioquest's TMD some day." You have an open invitation. I am still settling in and optimizing my system for the much smaller room I am in compared to the expansive room I had in my house in Germany. I think I will be "show" ready soundwise in about another month or so. As you know, it is a massive undertaking to move a system and optimize for a room and conditions. Now add a transatlantic move and things are more complicated. It appears my Krell SACD is now acting up, sigh.
I believe seeing a fully hot rodded Transrotor Apollon, minus FMD, would be of interest to you.
Do you have a handle in Audioasylum? I would like to send you a private e-mail to chat offline.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
Hi Hiho,
For some of the reasons you listed above, and in some other threads, I chose not to max out my Transrotor Apollon to the FMD. I feel I get more than I need for superior musical performance with all of the "mods" I have chosen.
In regards to the TMD, below the bearing assembly is a ceramic / steel spindle, that has a viscous pool of oil that runs up the spindle and is used to lubricate the spindle when the patter turns, thus physically isolating the bearing from the spindle. I upgraded from the standard bearing assembly to the TMD and noticed a better image specificity, clarity, deeper and more accurate bass, and increased speed stability.
I am very happy with the route I have chosen. From my perspective, I have never had any issues others complain about with other drive technologies. I guess I am not nitpicky and I am also content. Call me lucky, because others spend way more time trying to figure it out.
I prefer not to deride, discredit, or participate in lengthy debates about the implementation of other drive technologies, in the end, it is all about the music, and what makes "ME" happy. I cannot afford to waste my time on trivial matters, when I have so much music to listen to. I do appreciate your technical insight of the implementation of various drive methodologies concerning turntable.
Here is something I am pndering. I wonder how powerful the motors and magnets must be in order to be able to overcome the moment of intertia to start a 16.5kilogram/80mm platter from a start?
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
I found some further information of TMD. One of the technical guru's in Germany has a website dedicated to hi-fi tuning. He gives kudo's to the TMD and describes its operation pretty well, but then he advocates modding the motors with his Dr. Fuss Netzteil (Powersupply) to make the Fat Bob S better.
http://www.frank-landmesser.de/hoer_analog_tmd.html
I used Google Translate to read it. He makes his comparison to the stock Fat Bob S power supply, Konstant M1 and not the Konstant M3, the model I own. The specs are:
Transrotor KM-3 Three Motor Controller features:
Output voltage: 2 x 18 V AC two phase
Output current (max): 3 x 0.35 amps
Speed correction range: +/- 5%
Max voltage draw: 50 VA
Enclosure: 6 mm aluminum
Front plate: 8 mm aluminum
Dimensions: 7" w x 12" d x 2-3/4" h
I was able to convert the power supply for use with 120.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life |
Hey Melbguy1,
What happened? Sorry you are leaving. I know this site has many "hardhats" and the site itself is evolving into something many may not like anymore.
I have learned to get out of posts when they take a dive for the worst and get off track, sadly, too many time.
I am sure you will find helpful information in other forums or just the web. Good luck!
Audioquest4life |
