Blind Shoot-out in San Diego -- 5 CD Players


On Saturday, February 24, a few members of the San Diego, Los Angeles and Palm Springs audio communities conducted a blind shoot-out at the home of one of the members of the San Diego Music and Audio Guild. The five CD Players selected for evaluation were: 1) a Resolution Audio Opus 21 (modified by Great Northern Sound), 2) the dcs standalone player, 3) a Meridian 808 Signature, 4) a EMM Labs Signature configuration (CDSD/DCC2 combo), and 5) an APL NWO 2.5T (the 2.5T is a 2.5 featuring a redesigned tube output stage and other improvements).

The ground rules for the shoot-out specified that two randomly draw players would be compared head-to-head, and the winner would then be compared against the next randomly drawn player, until only one unit survived (the so-called King-of-the-Hill method). One of our most knowledgeable members would set up each of the two competing pairs behind a curtain, adjust for volume, etc. and would not participate in the voting. Alex Peychev was the only manufacturer present, and he agreed to express no opinion until the completion of the formal process, and he also did not participate in the voting. The five of us who did the voting did so by an immediate and simultaneous show of hands after each pairing after each selection. Two pieces of well-recorded classical music on Red Book CDs were chosen because they offered a range of instrumental and vocal sonic charactistics. And since each participant voted for each piece separately, there was a total of 10 votes up for grabs at each head-to-head audition. Finally, although we all took informal notes, there was no attempt at detailed analysis recorded -- just the raw vote tally.

And now for the results:

In pairing number 1, the dcs won handily over the modified Opus 21, 9 votes to 1.

In pairing number 2, the dcs again came out on top, this time against the Meridian 808, 9 votes to 1.

In pairing number 3, the Meitner Signature was preferred over the dcs, by a closer but consistent margin (we repeated some of the head-to-head tests at the requests of the participants). The vote was 6 to 4.

Finally, in pairing number 5, the APL 2.5T bested the Meitner, 7 votes to 3.

In the interest of configuration consistance, all these auditions involved the use of a power regenerator supplying power to each of the players and involved going through a pre-amp.

This concluded the blind portion of the shoot-out. All expressed the view that the comparisons had been fairly conducted, and that even though one of the comparisons was close, the rankings overall represented a true consensus of the group's feelings.

Thereafter, without the use blind listening, we tried certain variations at the request of various of the particiapans. These involved the Meitner and the APL units exclusively, and may be summarized as follows:

First, when the APL 2.5T was removed from the power regenerator and plugged into the wall, its performance improved significantly. (Alex attributed this to the fact that the 2.5T features a linear power supply). When the Meitner unit(which utilizes a switching power supply) was plugged into the wall, its sonics deteriorated, and so it was restored to the power regenerator.

Second, when we auditioned a limited number of SACDs, the performance on both units was even better, but the improvement on the APL was unanimously felt to be dramatic.
The group concluded we had just experienced "an SACD blowout".

The above concludes the agreed-to results on the blind shoot-out. What follows is an overview of my own personal assessment of the qualitative differences I observed in the top three performers.

First of all the dcs and the Meitner are both clearly state of the art players. That the dcs scored as well as it did in its standalone implementation is in my opinion very significant. And for those of us who have auditioned prior implementations of the Meitner in previous shoot-outs, this unit is truly at the top of its game, and although it was close, had the edge on the dcs. Both the dcs and the Meitner showed all the traits one would expect on a Class A player -- excellent tonality, imaging, soundstaging, bass extension, transparency, resolution, delineation, etc.

But from my point of view, the APL 2.5T had all of the above, plus two deminsions that I feel make it truly unique. First of all, the life-like quality of the tonality across the spectrum was spot-on on all forms of instruments and voice. An second, and more difficult to describe, I had the uncany feeling that I was in the presence of real music -- lots or "air", spatial cues, etc. that simply add up to a sense of realism that I have never experienced before. When I closed my eyes, I truly felt that I was in the room with live music. What can I say.

Obviously, I invite others of the participants to express their views on-line.

Pete

petewatt

Showing 14 responses by mrtennis

what predictive value is the result of a listening session ? the sample size is very small and one cannot be confident of agreeing with the majority.
the problem with such a test, is that the results cannot be extrapolated onto one's own stereo system, i.e., one would best listen to the same digital hardware in the context of one's own system--true for any component, to make a meaningful judgment.
hi pubul57:

i have a question for you:

suppose you hear of a comparison between 5 similar components, e.g., cd players, and the number of listeners exceeds 100. suppose one of the players is favored by more than half of the listeners. do you think you would favor that cd player over another chosen at random within the same price range ?

in other words, what is the value of the results of a "shoot out" consisting of 5 cd players when there exist over 1000 digital soiurces (must include dacs and transports)?

it would seem to me the results are a microcosm of what is possible.

i would propose a different experimental design, impractical as it is, which would require more listening and a greater period of time to accomplish the results.

here it is:

select over 100 cd players or dacs/transports, listening to 5 at a time. from the first 5 select the "favorite.

from the remaining candidates, slecet another five and pick a favorite. at the end, there will be 20 favorites.

narrow down the twenty to five and report on those 5 out of one hundred.

my point is that 5 is too small a sample size to be very useful. there are many other digital "players" which could have been selected..

however, i will agree, the exercise is not useful, although the idea could be implemented to include more candidates, even if it requires months to complete the listening.

perhaps , there are some serious audiophiles who could perform a valuable service by comparing a large number of , say tube and solid state amplifiers, capable of producing a reasonable spl, in a given stereo system.

let's not try to get crazy here as there are many variables, but the idea of experienced listeners comparing equipment is of value if implemented using a larger sample size than 5. there may be some short cuts to reduce total listening time. it takes some clever people to design such an experiment.
hi fplanner2010;

i believe that you are realistic in your statement that there is no "best" in the absolute sense, but rather what is best for the individual.

perhaps you could suggest a reason that the quest for the "best" is the subject of so many threads.

other threads concern the topic is one component better than another.

why does this happen so often.

our hobby is one where personal preference is the primary reason choices are made as to individual components and stereo systems. thus what is better does not assist a potential purchaser because the ultimate decision is so personal.

why take a poll to determine what CD player to purchase at a price point, when one should audition players when possible, or, if not possible, realize the risk that is entailed when following the dictates of others, is unkown but real ?
hi fplanner2010;

i believe that you are realistic in your statement that there is no "best" in the absolute sense, but rather what is best for the individual.

perhaps you could suggest a reason that the quest for the "best" is the subject of so many threads.

other threads concern the topic is one component better than another.

why does this happen so often.

our hobby is one where personal preference is the primary reason choices are made as to individual components and stereo systems. thus what is better does not assist a potential purchaser because the ultimate decision is so personal.

why take a poll to determine what CD player to purchase at a price point, when one should audition players when possible, or, if not possible, realize the risk that is entailed when following the dictates of others, is unknown but real ?
hi sabai:

there are two issues i have with your point of view.

first, regardless of the number of recommendations, there is a risk that an individual with unique tastes and romm and stereo system won't like the recommended component.

secondly, whatever component is recommended, it is highly probable that another component, not recommended may be equally worthy of consideration.
i think a good strategy for purchasing decisions where home audition is not possible is the following:

scan the want ads and note what components move fast. note the difference between the asking price and the retail price.

these two data points can help you make a decision, figuring that if you buy a component based upon the above, you will not be stuck with the piece and you might not lose to much.

also, as i have said in the past, many manufacturers are straight forward when asked about their designs.

now you have three factors to consider.

again, not ideal but at least its a plan.

if you want to include recommendations, that would be your choice, of course.
the problem with any comparison, is the number of entries.

it is not useful to report on the preferred component when only 5 are represented and the number of listeners is small.

these tests are just entertainment.

a wise person would not base a purchasing decision on a shoot out of the type indicated in this thread.

it's like comparing 5 books , when the universe is thousands, or comparing , say 5 italian restaurants when there are (in the us), thousands +.

in addition, as has been mentioned already, the experimental design is also suspect.

would anyone select a surgeon based on the paradigm described in this thread ?
the so-called dozens of great cd players are considered "great" because of consensus, i presume, which in and of itself does not imply greatness.

if the "great" cd [layers of the world are great for some other reason, it's a mystery to me.

the minority isn't always an indication of poor quality when comparisons are undertaken.

when mostly subjective criteria are used to determine "greatness", the very nature of the process is highly stochastic.

its all a matter of preference--italian restaurants and cd players. it's not determined by a vote. it's based upon subjectively-based criteria.
lets talk pizza. i don't like pizza with any sp[ice.

i make pizza myself. i use a dough i buy in a pizza place--whole wheat or the usual white-flour-based dough, freshly cut tomatoes and fresh chees. that's it.

so, here again, consensus means nothing, what is popular and favored by people based upon flavor is realyy a matter of taste.

when making pizza, egg plant parm, or chicken parm, no breading and no spices.

one new years several years ago i prepared three pizzas for a new year's eve dinner. one of the attendees thought it was the best pie she ever tasted.

that was her opinion.

my point, greatness applied to subjective phenomenon is in the eye, ear, or taste buds of a person.

as to the experiemental design that is another point.

shoot outs are irrelevant, audition in one's own system is relevant.

there is always some unknown component which may be of more interest than those which are known and compared.

there are many small companies which fabricate interesting products which are known to very few people.
why have a shoot out in the first place ?

what useful purpose does it serve ?

popularity does not signify importance when a purchasing decision is concerned ?

it is totally superfluous and as a result over 200 posts have ensued.

sometimes it is a good idea to censor one's thoughts.

this hobby requires much trial and error and learning occurs from one's own experience, more so than from the opinions of others.

if you live far from an audio store or a friend's stereo system and all you have to read is magazines which accept adds, i don't believe you reduce your risk of satisfaction from a purchase.

so to audiophiles are governed by unconscious motivation to prefer one product or another.

so, use your wits and accept the risks when assembling a stereo system or buying a component.
no one has answered my question:

why have a shootout ? what is to be gained ?

the results are so specific to the experiment that they cannot be extrapolated to another stereo system and should not be used as a basis for purchasing.

in addition, there probably are numerous experimental design errors which would render the conclusins unreliable and perhaps invalid.

leave these type of situations to those who are educated and trained to do them properly.
i would not be influenced to buy a product based upon a shoot out--audio or otherwise.

my ears, brain, preferences, etc. are unique.

this is true for every human being.

while it may be fun to do it, there is no substitute for listening.

shoot outs are not valid, period, with such a small sample size,. certain variables must be controlled and the experimental design and analysis must be very rigorous and conform to the methodology of statistical analysis. otherwise, the information so obtained is anecdotal, at best.

regarding resolution of one's stereo syetm. there is some basis for asserting that differences between components may not be detected if the stereo system is not sufficiently resolving. however, there may be interactions between the electrical characteristics and preamp, which may be noticed even in a so-called mid fi system.
hi pubul57:

it's not that suggestions are useless, it's just that the risk of following the advice does not lessen the risk that a purchase based upon those suggestions will necessarily be reduced.

one is taking a chance since there is no substitute for auditioning a component in one's system before buying.

suggestions based upon the experience of others are opinions which are probably true and probably false. the probabilities are unknown and are we better off making use of suggestions and buying a component than compiling a list of components , given certain constraints, and buying one of them ?

there is no way to predict in advance that randomness or the experience od others will lead to a more favorable outcome for a buyer.

i will admit that it is fun to exchange ideas on all varities of topics is interesting and a satisfactory use of time,.

still, the effectiveness of reviews, opinions from others, listening at dealers has not been evaluated.

i would be curious to test the outcomes of purchases based upon diifferent criteria, although i realize the impracticality of such a project.

it is what it is. one is free to pursue whatever is in his/her interest.

to each his own.