@verdantaudio thanks for the pointer. Rhapsody is a cool place to visit
Best speakers out there for Midrange and Highs
Hello Everyone!
I would like some advise about what are some of the better speakers out there for a 2 channel system - with use of subwoofers.
I currently use a pair of significantly large - full range speakers (Revel Salon2), that go down below 20hz. Even though my speakers go down so low, I still desired more air movement / sound pressure in the room - to make the sound as palatable as possible.
I found that combining the Salon2 with an external active crossover (JL Audio CR-1) and 2 Subs (JL Audio F113s) sounds excellent. Soundstage is close to like being at a concert, and surprisingly to me, was that imaging has not been lost. Furthermore, adjusting the phases on the subwoofers basically made the speakers and subs act like a singularity and helped the system sound even more exciting. I cross over at 90hz with a 24Db decay.
However, can’t help thinking about the obvious - that I am waisting all that available bass capability on the Salon2s. So I was wondering what speakers out there could be even more appropriate for my configuration. These speakers need not go down so low - Down to 55HZ would be more than enough. On the other hand, Salon2s also have a very strong midrange and highs, so I would like the new speaker to be either:
1) Better in the mids and highs (whether same price as the Salon2 or possibly more expensive), or
2) As good in the mids and highs as the Salon2s but less expense
Very much appreciate your recommendations.
Thank you in advance!
I would like some advise about what are some of the better speakers out there for a 2 channel system - with use of subwoofers.
I currently use a pair of significantly large - full range speakers (Revel Salon2), that go down below 20hz. Even though my speakers go down so low, I still desired more air movement / sound pressure in the room - to make the sound as palatable as possible.
I found that combining the Salon2 with an external active crossover (JL Audio CR-1) and 2 Subs (JL Audio F113s) sounds excellent. Soundstage is close to like being at a concert, and surprisingly to me, was that imaging has not been lost. Furthermore, adjusting the phases on the subwoofers basically made the speakers and subs act like a singularity and helped the system sound even more exciting. I cross over at 90hz with a 24Db decay.
However, can’t help thinking about the obvious - that I am waisting all that available bass capability on the Salon2s. So I was wondering what speakers out there could be even more appropriate for my configuration. These speakers need not go down so low - Down to 55HZ would be more than enough. On the other hand, Salon2s also have a very strong midrange and highs, so I would like the new speaker to be either:
1) Better in the mids and highs (whether same price as the Salon2 or possibly more expensive), or
2) As good in the mids and highs as the Salon2s but less expense
Very much appreciate your recommendations.
Thank you in advance!
Showing 19 responses by jmarshak
Thank you for your recommendations. I have been thinking abut TAD CR1 and always had Raidho on the radar. The Wilson-Benesh and Kaiser Chiara both look awfully interesting but would need to hear them! I am very well acquainted with practically all Focals up to 20k and have owned the Diablos. Excellent speakers. I must say, I was really impressed with the Revel’s mids range, especially once the speakers were relieved from heavy bass duties. The amps probably have a lot to do with that :) Thank you for letting me know about your own brand. @verdantaudio I will give it some thought. |
Hi @soix , Thanks! Definitely happy to try more sophisticated room corrections although I have spent some time on that already. I’ll read about the DSpeaker… was not aware of this product. Thank you for pointer. Again, I am enjoying the set up right now, but you are correct that there is always more one can do. Regarding the cross over frequency : In the past, I used to think exactly as you describe...If the Salons2 have so much to offer at the bottom, why would anyone cross over any higher than 40-50 hz? - and so, I’ve tested at 100 down to 30hz at 10 Hz increments :). Between 100, 90, 80 - started liking sound more..I can confirm is that the ’relief’ on the Salons below 90hz had a much greater positive effect on the overall sound than any minor directionality (which I could not really recognize) which could hear from the subs. Music sounds more engaging, better dynamics, just has more fidelity. I believe many have found the same to be true. My subs are actually positioned on the inside of the speakers. Further, at lower frequencies crossover, I felt less room sound pressure - not sure if this effect is caused because the subs have less leeway of operation. Again, surely the main amps have alot to do with choosing the optimal cross over frequency...I am using tube amps right now. The combination works nice. Just want to see if I can use the ’unused bass’ money to finance better mids/highs ’if possible’ |
Hmm.. and non harsh smack in the face?... I like that that in my music :) Basically, yes, I heard the Willson in many different reincarnations for as long as I can remember. I love all of their speakers. But I guess to summarize my objective... it's to get look for fanatically large bookshelves like the TAD CR1s … but the TADs are really,really expensive... so hopefully cheaper. |
Wow, lots of opinions indeed! Thanks everyone! I’ve comprised a list from all the above (Apologies if I might missed anything in the thread). Perhaps the summarized list may help others reading the thread: TAD Ref Vivid Kaya S12 - tried Vimbeg Amea KEF Reference 1 - tried Kaiser Chiara Raidho - Focal Diablo - tried and are go to speakers Wilson - tried, not small enough :) Marten Duke 2 Blackthorn 1 Bowers & Wilkins 800 D2+ - not small enouth :) Sound Lab Majestic 545, 645 Goldenear Triton 5’s Martin Logans 15A’s - tried Vandersteen Harbeth Compact7-Es 40th anniversary Quad 2912, 57 Magneplanars. Tidal speaker - cant afford any of them:) Wilson Benesch Discovery 2 - Interesting Plenty of food-for-thought here going into the new year! Some of speaker types on the list I never considered before - not sure why. Again, thanks everyone for sharing. Happy Holidays and happy listening! |
Hi @audiozenology - I tried having the revels set up as part of the bass array first, it was the cheaper option. After that, when I set the system into my current configuration, the sound was more 'together', and my heart beat lower. My audiophilic friends all agreed (for the first time). Hence the thread cause I know I am giving up bass potential. Believe me I would have loved to be wrong. I also spoke to a couple of amp manufacturers who agreed with the configuration. Happy to discuss further if you would like, please feel free to pm me. |
Excellent, thank you @audiorusty. Very interesting and coincidental! btw, I suggested a friend of mine get 2 SB4000 into his system...he did absolutely loves them. Wondering if you are still running the same configuration in your system? And that straddle setup over the subs was exactly what I was thinking about to save on floor space. Probably looks nice too. |
HI @newtoncr, Very interesting. Thanks for the reassurance (and picking up on the ’singularity’ reference:) ) I can only imagine how your system must sound ! - No doubt, the word ’upgrade’ must take on a new dimension for you :) Certainly, if you can use Subs with Blades (there was also a reminder that Subs are sometimes even used with Alexandrias!), I can stomach using Subs with Salan2 (even cross over at 90hz :) ). Again, I really like the midrange and highs on the Salon2. They are wonderful, I was just not sure If I’ve ’over built’ with the bass. But i must say, I am a bit calmer about it based on some of the responses in this thread... Still, all the Electrostatics-phile comments got me thinking :) |
@bassdude I got the Harbeth on the list! thanks @mountainsong Piega coax 711, got it. Thanks :) @soix - This DSpeaker its a DAC. What do I do with my pride and joy DAC and Preamp? I am not sure how much more my already treated room needs correcting I am wondering the pros and cons of investing time and money into this thing 'temporarily'. |
@p59teitel - Yes, that’s correct about the room and your point about larger amps has occurred to me before. (Those amps you mention are beautiful looking by the way) - perhaps in time :). I’ve tried Pass labs X250.8 and even the X350.5. Both were wonderful amps, and both would take a bit of time to get going, but once warmed up (after about 2.5 hours) each handled the Salons2 very nicely. I think the BATs (mostly because they are tubes) grab the Salon2 earlier and do a great job on their own. But what the 2 x 3,000 Watt F113 can do with bass, it’s hard to beat. First of all, the Salons and the Amps do an even better job on the highs/mids once the bass duty is removed from the equation. Also, one really needs to hear how well the Subs and Salons2 are integrated in the system. Though, Id be open to see otherwise, I really don’t regret the set up as is now. Really, I just wanted to see if I can spend less for, or get more Midrange/High by possibly eliminating [what I thought was] redundant bass on the Salons2 since I use subwoofers. And lots of speakers were recommended on this thread :) - But it's also Interesting that some people on the thread mentioned having similar Large Speaker/Sub [with active crossovers] set ups, and really like them. Aside - Interesting who has looked into/heard the Paradigm Personas- specifically the 9H with the 4 built-in subwoofers. I heard them. Sounded very good. |
@ @french_fries - Thank you, its a good point! Though I’ve never heard the Andra 2 or 3, I assume with the 2x12" drivers on them, they produce as much bass pressure as needed on their own. So I believe (among other reasons), that these specific speakers are made to eliminate the need for external subs. I mean hey - not just one 12" woofer but 2 on each speaker! Not sure if any of the woofers are actively driven by internal amplification? BTW..There are other speakers out there that don’t need external subs and they are huge, like the Focus Stalla, or the Evolution Acoustics MM2/MM3. I also mentioned earlier about the Paradigm Personas 9H - excellent sounding (I heard it) and much smaller then the others but these have internally active subwoofers...also very high efficiency. I know, originally, this thread was not about bass, but bass is an integral part of the speaker. And at some point, it comes down to cost. None of the above excellent options are very cheap :) In the right conditions I agree that the Salon2 don’t need external subs either and some people on the thread have made a case for that. I calculated that that the equivalent area of all the Salon2 ’bass’ drivers is approximately 13.5" in diameter...that’s no joke either!. So, to digress, I did purchased the DSpeaker room analyzer which arrives today- thanks to @soix. We’ll see how it goes :). |
Hi @hombre - Thanks. Sound like you are really enjoying you system. I like this explanation, paints a very vivid picture: The LRS is more like an open picture window.... Also when you say: This system seems to sound better everyday but I’m not sure whether it’s the system or my brain that’s breaking in Funny but true.. sounds like everyday, you appreciate your sound reproduction more and more...I think that’s what this hobby is all about! It also reminds me of the ’low fatigue’ factor. If you feel the way you describe when listening, your system must be ’low fatigue’ to you ... and that’s great. Because to me, it does not matter how good the sound is if you can’t listen for long stretch of time. I can sit in front of my 6000Watts, actively listening, then wondering off, then actively listening again for hours, rarely leaving because I am tired, but mostly because of stuff to do. I think that makes all the difference between looking forward to listening to your system and selling it :) Hi @wspohn - yes, so to me its not just dialing/ adjusting the volume. It is completely possible on the Salons2 if one needs to and I tried that. Instead, I read and confirmed that it's when you relieve the main speaker from the super high current bass burden, that the rest of the frequency sound reproductions begin to shine even more. I experienced this immediately when integrating the Salons with the Subs via Active crossover. There were other sonic improvements that I mentioned before. Salon2s have an amazing midst and highs capability, even better than their smaller sibling models. And even though the Salon2s are also great for bass reproduction, the JLs are maid for bass, they are hard to compete with [for the money] when it comes to bass. The active JL cross over provides much better integration than the ’uncomplete’ crossovers and frequency attenuators on the subs . So the benefits of adding the JL subs are 1) the Subs are best at what they are built for, helping to pressurize the room with ease, etc. 2) the Salon2s now carry less burden to reproduce the mids with ease and sound much better at what they do. Clarity and dynamics improved also. Again, very important to me was that imaging was not lost at all (perhaps because I use the same SR Active XLR interconnect cables everywhere). 3) The active crossover literally makes the two Sub/Speaker pair sound like a ’Singularity’. And yes, the downsides are many 1) More equipment, more floor space (Although I co-share the JLs with my separate HT system- they are great for multi system usage) 2) more interconnects and power cord investments.. more expensive. 3) If you dont get the integration exactly right, the system will surely sound worse. But it works good. Finally, thanks all who suggested the different Electrostats - One day I hope to try them. Happy Holidays to All! |
Yes, with time, I’ve come to appreciate a sort of priority order of what’s most important in the system to what’s least important. To me its: #1) Room dimensions and treatment, ambiance, Scotch :), lighting, etc.. #2) The listener’s ’Mood’, who else is in the room and what else is going on there. #3) The Speakers #4) The Electronics #5) Sonic cables (interconnects, speaker cables) #6) Power conditioners(could be very important in poor/unstable power areas) and power cables, tweaks People may also place different importance/priority on the above at different times in their lives (and depending on the deal at hand :) ) Best Regards! |
@acolcer That’s quite a set up you got! Thanks for your kind offer to hear it. I just may take you up on it :) Best Regards. @aigenga when you say: Although I can’t give a reason, I too have been thinking of a change very much in line with the OP.To me it’s about a sense of efficiency. I am interested to see if I can be more efficient with funds, floor space, power handling, quality, etc. Or can I perhaps get an even better sound for the money. My priority, like for many on this site is: First do no harm to the sound, and then see if I can improve it - knowing that we are well into the diminishing returns range financially with our gear. So it’s hard to be efficient and gain sonic benefits. You have quite a project planned for next year. Good luck and enjoy :) And it would be interesting to hear about your findings! |
Thanks. Again, the system sounds great for -bass, mids and highs! I just wanted to see if possible to gain efficiency. Totally agree that any gained efficiency may not even be worth it, after taking into account transaction costs and headach :) Interesting, did you say that you feel lack of slam? do you mean because of the room? |