Best room treatment
I took advantage of GIK's free room analysis about 6 months ago and have continued to be impressed with the results. I took a few months before I decided on a specific acoustic company to research and educate my self on room acoustics in general. I used all free on line resources, especially via Google and You Tube. I found out there's a wide variety in the quality of advice being offered for free on the internet, ranging from poor quality and virtually worthless to surprisingly high quality and valuable. But don't worry, you'll quickly and easily be able to determine which sources are knowledgeable, experienced, trustworthy and worth investing time in learning from and which are not, it's fairly obvious within a few minutes of reading or listening. I found this video, interviewing Anthony Grimani, to be especially useful and a good place to begin your edification: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAyF5ksbkk&t=40s This guy has produced other videos that I found interesting and useful. I suggest you take notes no matter which expert sources you decide to trust and learn from. Good luck, Tim |
Hello ronboco, You’re getting some excellent advice from some very knowledgeable experienced audio guys and I agree with most of it. But I’m concerned that you might be getting a bit overwhelmed in the process, kind of like taking the advanced level courses before you’ve taken the basic level prerequisite classes. Looking retrospectively on my 45+ year audio hobby journey, I know that reading and education were equally as important as listening, selectively purchasing component parts, experiencing and experimenting while building progressively better a/v systems over the years step by step. There’s a lot to learn in this hobby and I think we progress only at a pace that our natures are comfortable with. My main concern is that being fed well intentioned audio advice at a fire hose intensity level may not be the most constructive way to assist you. I think your own statement, that " I definitely need some more knowledge before taking out my wallet, may be the best approach to take at least for a while. But I realize you’re probably also anxious to get started and make some immediate system improvements while you’re gaining knowledge and developing an overall plan. I think this is possible and a good idea. For example, after you read the referenced Geddes material you could then begin your system improvement attempts by applying his proposed solution to what he considers one of the most difficult aspects of attaining good quality home audio, which is getting the bass sounding right in the room, through the utilization of multiple subs. I agree with brownsfan that learning and utilizing REW would be very beneficial in general and that the $3K Audio Kinesis Swarm 4-sub complete kit distributed bass array system is a very effective and simple complete package solution for attaining high quality bass throughout your entire room, no matter its quirky dimensions. However, I believe you’ll get very similarly good results utilizing the ’sub crawl’ method (google it) and you’ll begin to gain the benefits of multiple subs, even with just 2 properly positioned and configured subs, although the good bass performance will be restricted to a single designated listening seat and not equally good throughout the entire room. I use an AK Swarm type 4-sub system in my room, here’s a link to an Absolute Sound review that contains a very accurate description of what to expect. Unfortunately, 2 subs are not capable of providing this level of bass performance. https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ Best wishes and keep learning, Tim |
Hello ronboco, When I first installed the AK Debra 4-sub distributed bass array(DBA) system in my 23’x16’ living/listening/home theater room, the only acoustic room treatments in my room were wall to wall carpeting and some padded leather furniture. The AK Debra is almost identical to the Swarm except the subs are slightly narrower and not as square. I also used no room correction software or hardware. The Debra system, however, still performed amazingly well. In fact it worked so well that later, when I was working with GIK to finally add some room treatments to optimize my room acoustically (that was long overdue), I was very concerned that any changes to my room might negatively effect my system’s newly achieved near state of the art bass performance. I didn’t want to jinx anything. But after adding GIK’s recommended stacked bass traps in all 4 corners of my room along with over twenty additional 2’x4’ absorption and diffusion acoustic panels strategically distributed on all 4 walls, the bass still subjectively sounded exceptionally good to me, I did notice a dramatic improvement in midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance in my room with the addition of the room treatments but not any discernible negative effects to the bass performance. I did no before and after room frequency response measurements of my room. But I suspect, if I had, they would show significant improvements in bass response after the addition of the swarm DBA, which was maintained after the addition of the extensive GIK room treatments along with significant improvements in midrange and treble performance post room treatments. So, what have I learned from all this and what does it mean for your room? My current thoughts are the following: 1. Just because I subjectively noticed no significant positive or negative effects to bass performance of the swarm with the addition of the numerous bass traps in my room, and since I performed no objective before and after room frequency response measurements, I can’t definitively state there were no improvements in bass frequency response performance in my room. 2. I have learned that improving measured bass frequency response in a room can have positive effects on measured midrange frequency response, which is subjectively perceived as increased midrange clarity and detail. I definitely perceived increased midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance after the installation of the room treatments. But again, I can’t be certain whether these improvements were primarily the result of the bass traps or the numerous midrange/treble absorption and diffusion panels in the room. I suspect the improvements are the result of a combination of both. So for your room, I don’t think you’ll need bass traps initially but, once you’re ready to install room treatments for midrange and treble performance, it’s probably safer and best to also include bass traps. Or you could treat it as a learning experiment by installing the bass traps last and determining whether you subjectively perceive any changes to midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance after installing them. 3. I believe before and after objective room frequency response measurements are very important for clearly, accurately and objectively understanding how well your system is performing and the effectiveness of any added room treatments. I regret not doing them and suggest you may as well. Best wishes, Tim |
Hello ronboco, I just want to clarify a few things that will hopefully help your understanding. The distributed bass array (DBA) is a concept discovered virtually simultaneously through empirical scientific experiments performed by Dr. Earl Geddes and Dr. Floyd Toole. Their basic results can be summarized as: the more subs utilized in a given room, the better the bass response performance becomes. They found there were significant performance gains up to 4 subs and only marginal performance gains beyond 4 subs. The empirical scientific methodology utilized is important because it means their experiments can be independently and reliably duplicated by others, while obtaining highly similar results, following the exact same methodology. This is the process that establishes scientific truths or facts. Geddes told his protege, Duke LeJeune, about his discovery and generously gave Duke his permission to use the concept if he wanted to. Duke said "thank you very much E.G.", proceeded to create a complete kit product based (bassed?) on this concept and named it The Audio Kinesis Swarm. In turn, Duke has also been generous with this DBA concept. He readily admits that it performs equally well, along with it being scalable and likely performing even better, if a custom 4-sub DBA is created by using larger and/or higher quality passive or self-amplified subs. However, a custom 4-sub DBA will not only be more expensive, it will be more difficult to set up since the volume, crossover frequency and phase controls need to be optimally adjusted on each sub rather than just once for all 4 subs on the Swarm's amp/control unit. I have a lot of experience and knowledge with using 1-4 subs but mainly in my 23'x16' room with an 8' ceiling. It may be best for you to first experiment with optimally positioning your 2 existing subs in your room, using either the REW or the sub crawl method, and evaluating the results. If reasonably satisfied, you always have the option to add a 3rd and/or fourth sub. You also have the option of buying a $200 Mini DSP unit which makes connecting and adjusting up to 4 subs easier. Your choice should also be guided by whether you want very good bass performance throughout your entire room or just at a single designated listening seat. At least 3 subs are required for good bass throughout the entire room. To answer some of your other questions, I wouldn't concern yourself with bass traps and other room treatments until you get the bass sounding right in your room. I'm also confident that 2-4 subs, properly positioned and configured, will integrate well with any pair of main speakers. Hang tough, Tim |
Hello ronboco, I agree with everything erik_squires advised in his most recent post on this thread with the exception of totally treating your room first. He is a very knowledgeable audio enthusiast, however, he importantly lacks any personal experience with the use of the 4-sub swarm DBA concept. He is absolutely correct in recommending room treatments for improved midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance but does not realize that bass room treatments are not necessary for optimum 4-sub DBA performance. The advice I offered to you on my last post, which was based on my personal 4-sub DBA knowledge and experience, was given with the understanding that bass room treatments may be beneficial in improving your system and room's midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance but that they're definitely not required to improve your system and room's bass performance. My advice plan for your room is to get the bass sounding right first and then to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance at your designated listening seat, which will definitely benefit from the deployment of strategically positioned room treatment panels for the absorption and diffusion of midrange and treble frequency sound waves and may even benefit from the deployment of strategically positioned room treatment panels and traps for the absorption of bass frequency sound waves. My main reasoning is that all room treatments should be determined and deployed as a final step, after your subs, seating and main speakers have been optimally positioned in your room. I believe delaying all room treatments to this latter stage enables any professional room analysis to be more accurate and it'll allow you to more easily determine the effectiveness of any room treatments deployed. I realize now that I should've included these details in my last post but, at that time, I thought this topic could be explained and discussed a bit later on. Later, Tim |
