Best older Krell integrated amp that sounds good?

TO Onhwy 61 They are Acoustic Zen Adagios

To Rrog: You are an excitable boy!! Relax. I can't afford even used ARC, Rowlands, PASS. And based on people who have owned a few of Krell's integrateds they provide outstanding sound. But, I appreciate your input.

How the three super major brands mentioned above determine their retail pricing is a mystery to me. Personally, I can't see how they can justify it. What the use of NASA or military grade parts or is it years of R&D?? Levinson can be also added to the bunch. Too often audiofiles refuse to consider that a particular product is overpriced.

Let me digress a minute about my visit to a super high end shop here in Honolulu. Both dealer and brand will remain anonymous. Suffice to say, I listened to an $18,000 floorstander that was a two way system driven by top of line BAT amp and pre-amp. Yes, the sound was marvelous( at least what I heard which was a vinyl recording of a female jazz vocalist and guitar acoustic accompaniment. The sound was compelling, engaging, spellbinding, riveting, startling, or any other freakin adjectives so often used by high end guru reviewers.

However, as "satisfying" the sound was to me and its richness and the increditable wall of sound it created, I said to myself (not to my dealer friend) that this speaker is grossly overpriced. What should it cost, I don't know or care, but I was NOT going to run to the bank and buy them even at $10,000. At times, they sounded peaky and leanED toward a bright sound.

About, ten years ago, I got into a real pissing contest with Allen Perkins when he was the Audio Physic rep as to why AP's speakers seemed above the price range of other high-end speakers. He responded with some "happy horseshit" about that like the Volvo he drove, value could only be appreciated by the how much pleasure a product the owner recevied from it. Nice theory but.... I have owned several speakers, none over $5000, and I usually brought used except when I myself worked as an audiosales person for 15 years, and got "comp" discount up to 50% percept offered by manufacturers to long term employees. I have to say when I made the jump from KEF 104ab and Apt Holman electronics to the B&W Matrix 3 MKII driven by Aragon 4004 MK2 amp and Conrad Johnson PV-8, the jump in sound quality brought tears to my eyes. I was so stunned by the sound across the board. Could I have afforded an $8500 rig without the salesman's comps,.... probably not. Though, I could have easily financed part of it, if I was jonesing for it.

In 1988 when I made this leap of faith, the Aragon amp sold for $1800; and, the CJ PV-8 also $1800. There was a TT and CD player in the mix and Monster Reference Garden hose speaker cable and reference ICs Did I think the retail price excessive or grossly inflated, not really. Expensive,yes, but not unreachable. A $10,000 PASS integrated, or Rowlands, or ARC or Boulder is for me, a retired cogger with maybe a decade before turning in my timecard and lunch bucket, excessive, and greedy on the part of the manfacturers who get away with inflated retails.

To Unsound: I was not putting down Rrog's advice; he is usually right in his judgements about high end audio. The issue is: are buyers getting what they pay for??. After my short audition of the $18,000 floorstander, I thought how do I measure $5000 of audio satisfaction, where does the $10,000 level start, or will I be doing cartwheels nad running down the streets with sparklers in my hand yelling "Eureka" when I have reached the $18,000 plateau of aural satisfaction.

Buying audio is not like acquiring the services of a high end escort where you wake up the next morning and say "WOW" that really was worth the $5000. I think it might be easier to determine the level of one's satisfaction in those circumstances based on dollar per dollar ratio

My intention is not to make light of this issue of value in high end audio, but I think it is easier to find value both monetarily and personally in products that are overachievers, and intelligently engineered.

The same company that sells the $18,000 2 way floorstander, has just released a new model that is a cool $107,000 By the time a buyer outfits this product with comparible electronics and cables, he/she could be at $175,000. I don't know anyone who will make that type of investment in audio. Maybe in places like NYC, Dallas, Chicago or even Honolulu where there are incredibly rich people whose discretionary spending allows that type of purchase Today, high end audio suffers from an economy of scale. It produces audio products removed even from the shrinking pool of upper middle class buyers. In a declining economy, this strategy seems to be even more ridiculous and ironic. How many buyers out there are going to be interested in a $107,000 speaker system. And more importantly, what is the longevity of a company whose least expensive speaker is $18,000, or separates that begin at $15,000 and and top out at $85,000 or $95,000. How many "turns" that is, sales is that manufacturer going to have to make to keep the show going, and for that matter, the brick and mortar Audio shop whose got to sell these products just to pay the rent and utilities.

There is always the hope of finding a diamond in the rough with older equipment, that is, under 10 years. Some reviews claimed the S300i was very good, but the volume control when remotely operated made noise when it was activated. I heard that complaint from other owners. Actually, of all the reviews I have read, KAV 400i got the highest praise for its sound quality of the Krell KAV series integrated amps. I have looked at other IA's like Sim Moon and 1-5 and 1-5.3, and the Creek Destiny 2. My intuition tells me, Krell is in another class than Creek, though I have owned Creek 5350SE Classic, which was excellent across the board, but had wimpy power at 75RMS

To Rrog, I'll check it out. I know Pass made an amp called Aleph 3 which was about 60 RMS, and is still held in high regard. I may be mistaken, but I never considered Accuphase in the running as a high end product. I may be a bit leary about vintage equipment because of the possibility that parts are no longer available. Conrad Johnson which makes excellent products, but never was a pioneer of integrated amps. They have a current piece which is ET-3, but it is about $4500, and used maybe, $2500-2700. Cheers!!!

Audiolabyrinth, I believe there may be a Krell KAV 400xi on AG now or there was. With any older product, proceed with caution, and also take a look at the reviews before you commit. I am just waiting for a silver 400xi to come around

Audiolab... I will check out e-bay which is usually alot more expensive. Nevertheless, you should read one of the reviews. Keep in mind this is a 9 year old design and its sound tends toward leaner. Another suggestion to consider is the new Rogue integrated called "The Sphinx" It is a hybrid integrated with 100RMS. It has a phono stage for MM and high output MC, and supposedly sports a separate high quality head phone amp it will sell for $1295.00 One negative, the remote is an extra $100 which in my opinion is cheapskate stuff and the remote only does volume up/down. Good Luck!!