My recommendation is spend on getting a good 2ch integrated, then get a decent a/v pre/pro and a decent multichannel amp.
Reasoning is for movies you don’t need the level of quality as 2ch music. I have been trying to figure out an integrated 2ch / multichannel setup and have finally landed on a Luxman 509X + Marantz 8805 + McIntosh 7106 multichannel amp (had this one already and do not have that many speakers). Just ordered the Luxman after demoing a bunch of different amps.
The Luxman has a “separates” toggle which separates the amp from the preamp, so when watching movies you can switch it to amp mode and it is driven by the Marantz or other pre/pro When listening to 2ch you you can switch to integrated mode.
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Hi Maguiar,
Those are all great integrateds, each with a their own sound signatures. For me, the Luxman was the biggest bang for the buck, not only did I like the sound and matching with my ML 11As, it was the cheapest by a couple thousand. Also, I really like that it's completely analog with less chance of something going wrong (like touch controls, DAC board, etc.).
I really like the Marantz, it's well build and has the Denon/Marantz A/V engineering, firmware updates, reliability, and features. In my opinion they have mastered the A/V side of things. You pretty much setup and it works, with firmware updates coming in somewhat regularly. It is one of the few processors that has all the latest surround support (ATMOS, IMAX, etc.). With the Marantz you get discreet analog output boards as well. Sound quality is fantastic, particularly with movies. It tends to be on the warmer side for music.
I don't know much about the Audio Control Maestro, other than it's a tweaked Arcam, so I imagine you are reliant on Arcam's firmware updates. All are amazing products in terms of sound quality. It comes down to which room correction and features. One thing to note, I have seen Arcam crash during demos, but in all honesty that could have just been random one offs. |
@gareneau, The successor to the 8805, the 8802A, is similar to the 8805. Anything older then you won't be getting latest processing technology. PM me if you want to discuss further.
@audiotroy, my point was only to say that they may rely on Arcam for firmware updates.
My biggest learning has been to pay the least you in your budget range for the features and sound you need for processors. They devalue VERY quickly and become outdated just as fast. Most of the current generation A/V processor are already a bit dated for the price they charge.
I can tell you a multichannel processor will be fantastic for music, but will generally be beat by a comparable 2ch preamp for music.
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@maguiar good question, I already had the MC452 amp so I wanted to keep in the family for my center/surrounds. Found a great deal on a used MC7106 on Craigslist. The MC7106 is actually directly coupled so is less warm than their amps with autoformers. I ended up getting rid of surrounds for the time being and bridged 2 channels for my center (a harder to driver ML Stage).
The Marantz + MC452 + ML 11A speakers needless to say was too warm thus my switch to the Luxman. Funny enough when I compared the MC452 vs. MC7106 bridged, the MC7106 sounded better with ML 11As, crisper highs. It is a fairly powerful amp that can be found ~$1K+ used.
I have been a Denon/Marantz guy for a long time (for A/V). I have to say my overall experience with Marantz has been great, especially for the price. The attention to detail is pretty impressive, down to the copper chassis.
I like the fact it’s upgradeable to HDMI 2.1, it’s built like a tank, audio quality is great especially for movies, and the processing capabilities is amazing (even including IMAX). On the video side, you really don’t get better for the price. I know you mentioned you aren’t into streaming, but down the road if you decide to get into streaming their HEOS app can send native FLAC from Tidal to the 8805. Not in the same level as dedicated DAC streamers, but still a nice to have.
Only negative is that it runs somewhat hot as all Marantz and Denon receivers/processors and it does not do analog passthrough (unprocessed) over balanced XLR input, just RCA. Though this is really a non-issue for home theater use.
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@maguair, the Marantz is meant to be left on and used for extended periods of time, so won’t be a problem. If you plan on putting it in an enclosed cabinet, then you should get the inexpensive AC Inifnity Aircom fan unit to put on top. That should be used with any component in an enclosed space, including the other processors or amps you are looking at. But with enough clearance and air flow I wouldn’t worry about it. It may not be any hotter than the other processors, I have not compared. My older Denon x6400H receiver ran far hotter and I would leave it one for extended periods of time and never had an issue.
You would need a multi-channel amp as well to drive your other speakers (center and surrounds). The pre/pro has analog audio which feeds to your integrated for the front L/R two speakers, and the other channel outputs to another amp (or amps) to drive any other speakers.
edit: just noticed @dep14’s post, you can definitely just pick up a higher end Marantz or Denon receiver to drive the rest of your home theater speakers. You would just use the pre-out for the L/R to the integrated. However, just make sure your speakers are easy to drive.
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@auxinput makes a great point, it’s a matter of taste. As an example, if you compare Denon with Marantz, they share similar components but the Denon is voiced on the brighter side compared to Marantz. Major difference, other than the sound signature, is that the Marantz is well regarded for having their HDAM analog output stages for the pre outs.
@maguair if you decide to go down the receiver route, Denon’s flagship X8500H is one to look at as well. That is one amazing receiver for the price. I had the X6400H and it was fantastic, the X8500H is another level from that. |
@Maguair, what are you looking for in terms of sound signature for your 2ch?
I just got the Luxman 509X, so not broken in, but initial thoughts are that it is more on the neutral side, not that warm. It sounds fantastic, crisp yet sweet highs, mids are full, and tight bass. With my MLs it is fairly transparent, so source is really important. I am looking forward to seeing what happens when it settles a bit more. It only has a few hours on it now.
I have heard the Diablo 300 and it is a great integrated and it slightly more on the warmer side. Though for the price you are getting close to some great separates. You could get the Luxman m900u + preamp for close to Diablo 300's price. The m900u is the closest I have heard to combine the lushness of tube + power of ss. This is with the usual caveat that it's a personal preference and it's all about synergy with speakers.
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Hmm, that’s probably the complete opposite of how I would describe the vocals. They are smooth yet detailed. If anything I think the amp is fairly true to source, in that the source and quality or recording makes a difference. If the recording has a “digital” sounding recording, then that’s what you will hear with the amp. Definitely good idea to demo it again with your own source music, if you didn’t get a chance to do it before.
That’s a great list of integrateds to demo! If you are doing A/B testing are you bringing your source player, not just CDs? |
Could be the characteristic of the integrated as well, if possible you should take your Arcam with you if that’s what you will be using at home.
Just out of curiosity, which CD or tracks did you hear that sounded grainy? Could try to give a whirl, but need to let mine settle and run for a while. |
Macquiar, bummer I couldn't find Mariza's live Concerto Em Lisboa on Tidal. I know it's on iTunes just didn't have time to get Apple Music connected to the Luxman before leaving for vacation. I will check it out when I get back, from my quick listen it sounds like a great song, as well as album.
From early listening the 509X is definitely a great integrated, at least with my setup. I would classify as neutral and smooth, with high resolution so it's revealing. If you hear gritty or bright it is will most likely comes from a component in the system. Even with bright sources the vocals coming in smooth. I have noticed cables, especially interconnects, make a noticeable impact with this amp, at least with my system. I can say for the first time I was able to really hear the difference between my copper AudioQuest Earth cables and silver Fire cables. In terms of power, I have not been able to move the volume knob passed the 10 o'clock position since it's way too loud with my ML 11As, which are somewhat demanding speakers which drop below 1 ohm in the high frequencies.
Also, using the Luxman + 8805 I really got to see the how great of a pre/pro the Marantz 8805 is. The analog output stages and discrete DACs are great. |
Thanks Maguiar! I am back, ask away... |
Thanks Maguair, vacation was great.
Great summary on your take on the different amps. Speaker and amp synergy is really important as well. If you thought the m900u was a bit bright then the 509X will probably sound even brighter to you. Never harsh, very smooth highs, but very resolving. When I demoed the 509X and m900u with Martin Logan 11A speakers, I felt the 900u added tad more warmth. The Martin Logan speakers tend to be on the warm side as well, thus a good match.
I liked the Gryphon as well, although warmer than the Luxman, felt highs could be a tad harsher on some tracks. |
Maguair, I haven't heard the Harbeth's myself but I have heard they are fairly neutral speakers. Your impressions on the different amps make sense. A warmer amp I would bring out a fuller sound. BTW, one integrated amp that I have recently been curious about is Accuphase. It is comparable with the Luxman but most say it's warmer. Their E-650 is one of the most versatile Class A integrateds I have seen (rated down to 2 ohms).
I definitely agree with Caphill, source is as important as amp.
Auxinput, just out of curiosity which speakers did you hear the Pass Labs with? I have always been curious on Pass Labs but have been steered away since my speakers tend to be on the warmer side.
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Maguiar,
I did demo the Gryphon Diablo 300 with the 11As. Thought it was great, though certain songs came across a bit bright, and at times slightly harsh. Generally it had a great balance of warmth and clarity, but was surprised at the brightness that snuck in every now and then. It was enough where I could see potential fatigue setting in. I think it was paired to a higher end DCS DAC, didn't check to see which model. If I was to consider the Diablo again, I would want to try to do a more thorough demo.
I got a great deal on the Luxman 509X so figured I might as well give it a chance given it was pretty much half the cost the Diablo. So far I like it, but working on trying balance the system a bit more since it is a very transparent amp. Just picked up a new interconnect to try out. The 509X is the first amp I have owned which let me really hear the obvious differences between my copper vs. silver interconnects.
On the PS Audio DAC Caphill mentioned, one cool factoid is that their DACs are firmware upgradeable. You get a new and improved DAC with each free software update. It's on my list of DACS to demo with my system down the road, though I am really fascinated with LampizatOr DACs out of Poland. |
Maguiar,
Yes for sure it’s all about synergy. The more I spend time with the Luxman, the more I am appreciating it. As Caphill mentioned cables are very important, both component and speaker/interconnect cable synergy.
I just changed my analog interconnects between DAC and integrated and my system became balanced, at least to me. Before I felt it was a bit flat and lacked soundstage and depth. Then again, this is probably because the Luxman and my AQ Thunderbird Zero speakers cables are very transparent. With my prior McIntosh amp I didn’t hear as much of a difference between different interconnects.
In home demo for any component is the preferred path if possible. Nothing beats hearing it in your own environment.
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Maguiar,
There are many great interconnects and most people have different preferences. To give an example @caphill likes Shunyata, which are great cables, others I know say they think their interconnects sound dull. Same goes for all the manufacturers. It's all about preference and synergy.
I like AudioQuest myself, recently moved up to the WEL interconnect and it changed the entire characteristic of my system. Has to be the most balanced and natural cable I have heard. Switching from Earth (copper) or Fires (mid-level silver) to the WELs was like going from digital to analog. First time I have ever had a single component make so much of a difference. Though it's hard to demo these cables since retail is so high, it takes patience to find them on the used market at a decent price.
I haven't heard WireWorld but it comes highly recommend form many, especially their Platinum Eclipse 8. I am considering getting a pair at some point to try out.
Nordost are great, though I felt their low-to-mid level v1 cables were a bit thin sounding in my system, though moving up the line balances things more. Their new v2 versions I have been told are more balanced. Cost is probably on the higher side as far as cables go.
Would agree with caphill, if you are sticking with Transparent speaker cables then maybe start with their interconnects. Helps also to start somewhere so you have a basis to compare other manufacturers down the road unless you can demo different cables at home. |
maguiar,
@caphill is spot on, there are ranges in AQ much like all cables. Choosing manufacturer and line comes with demoing and preference, more important how one cable works in one system but not well another no matter what the price.
There are so many different threads on cables and so many schools of thought. People have different opinions. I can only speak to what I have heard personally and analog interconnects/speaker cables make a fairly noticeable impact in my system. I recently did some cable comparisons with non-audiophile friends and they heard the difference immediately, enough where there was a discussion on pros on cons.
I definitely agree with @auxinput's recommandations on solid core conductors. For AQ, I would recommend the copper Water or even better Earth. Preowned you can find on the marketplace ~$300-$600. If you need more resolution, then silver but pricing goes up 2-3x across manufacturers.
I own a Furman IT-Reference 15i and think it's great. Though I haven't gotten into the power side as deeply as speaker/interconnect cables.
At some point I want to demo the AQ Niagara and Shunyata products. Almost everyone I have spoken to who has tried them really liked them both. Furman shouldn't be too bad in comparison since their lead design, Garth Powell, left to join AQ a little while back. He designed the Niagara power products, cables, and recently helped in the design of the new line of speaker cables. The AQ Thunderbird Zero speaker cables I own are the most resolving copper cables I have heard.
My recommendation is build out a balanced system and not focus on just one area. From my experience, it all makes a difference.
@caphill, do you run your amps through conditioners or directly to wall? Some manufacturers recommend going directly to the wall, but I imagine with the higher end Shunyata and AQ conditioners it could be beneficial. |
Thanks @Cahill,
Appreciate the overview, very helpful. You have some amazing setups! Sounds like you have done some great work with your AC lines.
I currently have the Luxman 509X integrated. It’s plugged into the wall right now, but may go through the Furman at some point to compare. Prior to this I had the McIntosh MC452 and that was direct to the wall.
Those Naim monoblocks are insane and have some serious power!
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@caphill Thanks! I tried both, plugging the 509X into the conditioner and direct to the wall. I prefer direct to the wall, but not a huge difference. Though I still need to upgrade power cables and maybe the conditioner as well.
@maguiar Any updates? Did you pull the trigger on a system?
On my side I have been doing a lot of testing on streamers (I listen to Tidal mostly). I picked up a Lumin D2 which I liked, but felt it a tad warm for my setup, so I just received a T2 which I am breaking in now. I am reserving judgment/comparisons, but fresh out of box it sounds great and it's getting better by the hour. I can see why people rave about it.
In my comparisons, I was really surprised that the Marantz 8805 can hold it's on when it comes to DAC/Streamers. It has a HUGE soundstage and with the right cable has a pretty great overall sound. It doesn't have the crispness and accuracy of the T2, but for an all-in-one solution it can sound pretty great. |
