I really like my VSA VR-7s - they play MUSIC. Period.
Although "problem" older recordings don't sound great, thankfully I have very few of them and they have in fact already been remastered to take the "grunge" out (my system is non-vinyl and pretty revealing).
Good thread. |
As I said in a different thread, by far the best type of music to use to test a speaker is classical, specifically full scale orchestral music, or perhaps even better, opera. This type of music places more demands on the speaker than any other type, by far - particularly the huge dynamic ranges, variety of timbres, the sheer number of instruments and voices, the greater size of the soundstage to reproduce, the much greater complexity of the music itself - one could go on and on. A speaker that can handle all of this can handle any other type of music one could choose to throw at it. That said, it is also true that no single speaker is going to excel at all of these things more than all the others, and personal preference will enter into it a great deal. But if we are talking best all-around speaker, it's got to be able to handle the biggest challenges, so if it can handle the above things, it WILL be able to handle any other type of music - so I would disagree with those who have said that it is a must to own multiple sets of speakers for different types of music. Set up a speaker system that sounds fantastic for all types of what we call classical music from huge opera to a solo string instrument or voice, and no fan of any other type of music will have any complaints when their favorite type is played over them - I have found this to be true 100% of the time, with different types of speakers, too, though in the experience of myself and many professional musicians and audiophiles, horns will reproduce all of the above with the greatest accuracy overall. The other thing just about all professional musicians would agree on is that this requires floorstanding speakers as well, so I guess that 100% number I threw out there does assume floorstanders - smaller speakers simply cannot reproduce some of the qualites necessary for the reproduction of the very largest scale music. |
My vote is for a design incorporating Open Baffel and Waveguide (horn). Having +/- 400 hrs on a pair of Emerald Physics CS-2's, I can honestly say I have not heard a more accurate, revealing, live-sounding, and dynamic pair of speakers.
The open baffel dipole design takes the room and its' problems out of the equation.
I'm not saying they (the EP's) are are the "best", but their design plays everything as well as any speakers I have heard. And, once you have heard bass without the box, you will get a completely different understanding of what dynamic means.
Best regards,
Dave |
To expand on Learsfool's theme, any one of the recent SACDs of Mahler by SF Syphony with Michael Tilson Thomas will test the limits of a speaker system. Symphony #1 and #6 have over 40dB of dynamic range, with huge sounds juxtiposed with almost silent spots.
For someone that doesn't know symphonic sounds, then some vocal music will need to be added to check timbres. Female and male vocals in rock or pop genres will usually do, so long as the recording is not grossly compressed.
Dave |
To expand on Learsfool's theme, any one of the recent SACDs of Mahler by SF Syphony with Michael Tilson Thomas will test the limits of a speaker system. Symphony #1 and #6 have over 40dB of dynamic range, with huge sounds juxtiposed with almost silent spots. These were monitored and mixed using Quad ESL 63's. These speakers will not play much more than 100 db SPL peaks before shutting down. Not suitable for realistic Mahler playback in a large room IMHO but obviously for the recording engineer (Andreas Neubronner) the unsurpassed midrange accuracy of the Quad's must be very important for classical mixing decisions. The recordings have won awards so if you are into classical and want to hear the detail of each instrument (at low SPL's) then this would obviously be a good choice of speaker. If you listen to rock or jazz then I think this speaker would be a mistake (Andreas has PMC AML1, Rogers Ls3/5a and Genelec 1031 too - so I expect the checks his mixes on these speakers too in order to ensure they are suitable for the general market) |
That was mastering really, wasn't it? No doubt it was in a pretty small room and, perhaps, some subs were integrated into the mix to get the full range, even in a smaller room.
In an average room, without subs, IMHO, ELS 63s will be stretched beyond capacity by Mahler. They'll sound glorious most of the time, but the peaks will slay them. That's just not acceptable for me, but I understand the attraction for those that go that route.
Dave |
why is it necessary to expose one's ears to 100db in a room no larger than 12 feet by 20 feet ?
my wife complains when the spl exceeds 85 db, and she is 22 feet from my speakers.
85 db is loud enough. i don't see why music can't be enjoyed at spls less than 90db. |
why is it necessary to expose one's ears to 100db in a room no larger than 12 feet by 20 feet ? You hear more detail and it is realistic/exciting/fun/enveloping but you are right in that there is no reason why music cannot be enjoyed at more modest levels too. (better for your ears!) |
No amp,preamp or speakers can replace the most important of all.......your hearing loss.
SPL of 110db is insane. More detail???? Wow. |
If you listen at average levels of 85 to 87dB, which is what I do, you'll hit peaks over 100dB. They don't last long and will not hurt those with healty ears.
Dave |
Dcstep - To your question about my digital sources: As I may have reported above, I used multiple digital players in order to deal with differently-engineered sources. My primary source now is an EMM CDSA. I use it for a lot of things, but particularly classical. My secondary source is a GNSC-modified Wadia 860x (a fair bit different sounding than the unmodified version), which I tend to use more for pop and jazz. I also have an EAR Acute with Pope 6dj8's that's fairly forgiving and "analog" sounding. In the past, I was using a Linn CD12, but I thought the EMM and Wadia both bettered it (for my ears). Finally, on the comparison (analog) side, I have a Linn LP12 w/ Koetsu Black through an EAR 834P w/ a Telefunken and 2 Mullards in it.
It's all designed to be relatively mellow--"relatively".
I don't think I have a huge problem with a front-end that can't handle (in one way or another) "difficult" CDs--at least not a problem that a different piece of gear can resolve...but maybe I'm wrong. You have any suggestions? |
Eweedhome asked:
"You have any suggestions?"
Playback Designs MPS-5.
Dave |
The previous discussion about speakers playing at high volumes brings me back to the original post and an attribute needed in a "best all around speaker."
Much of my listening is late at night. As the system is not tucked away in the basement and I don't care for headphones, the volume needs to be kept low. When looking for speakers I look for a one that can play at low volumes without losing its sonic signature. Not all speakers do this well. |
Timrhu said:
"When looking for speakers I look for a one that can play at low volumes without losing its sonic signature. Not all speakers do this well."
Unfortunately for you, Flecther and Munson (sp?) demonstrated that your ears don't hear the same at low volumes. The old "Loudness" button on old two-channel receivers was meant to compensate for this.
Does anyone have a modern, audiophile-level way to deal with this today?
Listening near-field is my only suggestion. I do this often on morning when I get up early for coffee and the paper while others are asleep. It works pretty well.
Dave |
Consttraveler [The open baffel dipole design takes the room and its' problems out of the equation] and just how does it do this? Since its impossible;) Maybe you ment takes cabinet and a few cabinet problems out of the equation. Still OB are not perfect as are all loudspeaker designs. |
SPL of 110db is insane. More detail???? Wow. Yes a drum set is insane! Most brass instruments are insane. Indeed, many musical instruments are insane - even grand pianos! Who would want to play or listen to this insanity. Long live recorded music - compressed and squashed to a pulp for audio playback at artificially low levels! Lets Kill the dynamics! After all Dave has found a recording with 40 db dynamic range....holy smokes! - that is unheard of these days when most recordings have 3 db of dynamic range. Who are these rebels at San Fransisco Symphony? I mean this is nearly half the available dynamic range of the redbook CD format? Surely 90 db of the 96 db spl range of CD should not be used for such a horrendous purpose as to bring back dynamics to music (so you can listen louder comfortably)!!! => The reason 110 db spl sounds absolutely horribly loud is because of modern ultra compressed music which has absolutely NO DYNAMICS anymore - old vinyl is way better than most CD's nowadays (but none of this is at all like the real thing - live music). Of course 110 db SPL peaks are hellishly loud when the AVERAGE continuous sound is at 107 db SPL! This is not the same as the odd 110 db SPL peak/accent/cresendo on music that averages 90 db SPL. The dynamic range or contrast between soft and very loud sounds is what gives music life...it is sad that dynamic range is all but completely DEAD today. No wonder 90 db SPL sounds so extremely loud with modern music - as it averages 87 db SPL continuously - that is why! |
I have to imagine that a large speaker with multiple drivers and large woofers can do things that a small two-way cannot, and just as importantly the small two-way will excel in many ways that a large, multi-driver, big woofer cannot match. The Vandersteen 3As comes to mind as a speaker that has some of the attributes of both extremes, and makes an excellent all-around speaker for all types of music. I prefer Merlin VSMs that excel at the kind of music I most care to listen to small group jazz, accoustic, and chamber music - a similar genre speaker as the Quads, but louder and more dynamic and ultimatley a wider range of music - but I would not choose it if I wanted to listen to reggae all day long. |
To Shadorne's point, last Saturday I listened to Mahler's 1st, which gets incredibly loud at several points when the average loudness is set around 85dB. Immediately after that I put on a Bruce Cockburn CD that had mysteriously arrived in the mail despite me not ordering it. I love much of Bruce's work, but the thing blared out at 90+dB and just sounded crappy. I turned it way down, but it was totally lacking in dynamics and sounded lifeless at lower level. It didn't sound good loud and it didn't sound good medium or soft. I gave it one listen and, even though I was intrigued by some of the lyrics and music, I'll never listen to it again.
Dave |
Is compression much more common in pop/rock? It seems like it is. It would make sense if much of this music is listened to in a car where the noise floor is louder than my living room. Classical recordings do seem to be startling in their dynamic range, especially we you "accidentally" play the low volume passage loud and then.... |
Pubul57 said:
"Is compression much more common in pop/rock? It seems like it is."
I think you're right about that.
Dave |
JohnK:
You are correct, I miss-spoke. The open baffel di-pole design allows the creation of a null at the sides of the speaker which cancels bass reflection from the side walls and thus removing the common placement issues associated with most other designs, that are able to generate bass to +/- 20 htz. It also removes cabinet resonance and propagation issues since there is no cabinet.
The only other design that does bass as well, that I have experienced, are horns. However, my listening room does not have enough room to accomodate two refridgerator sized bass units.
I did not state that the EP's are perfect. In fact, I said that "I don't know if they are the best." But to my ears, the combination of the open baffel, di-pole, and waveguide (horn for the treble), plays any type of music extremely well.
And I stand by my assertion that "I have not heard a more accurate, revealing, live-sounding, and dynamic pair of speakers."
For a more detailed explanation, and no doubt a better written one, see John Potis's new review of the EP's in Positive Feedback.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue38/emerald_physics_2.htm |
I own Hansen Prince speakers. They are the best speakers I've heard in my room or any other. They play everything from rock, jazz, female vocals (my favorite), classical, and country. They are so natural! Never bright or analytical, but highly detailed. Excellent micro and macro dynamics. An amazing sound stage. I can't really find fault with them other than they are a little expensive. Given I'll probably own them for 20 years, I don't mind. |
