Beolab 5 - Four Questionable Technologies

Marty,
“this speaker would require an in-home demo and a large listening room. I don't know if B&O would accommodate such a request.”
B&O has already said yes to my request for an in home demo, even though I live 2.5 hours from them on a farm in the middle of Missouri. There will have to be some sort of payment if I don’t buy the system. Same with the B&W dealer.

“BTW, I can't state with confidence that the Beolab 5 doesn't image (soundstage) well.”
I wonder what others would say about this. I went back to David Ranada’s review in Sound & Vision: “it can produce good stereo imaging from a very wide listening area and extremely good imaging when heard from a prime listening position.”

Does anyone else have experience with this speakers imaging qualities?

Johnk,
" Will advancements in dig amps and DSP make it primitive in the near future?"
I'm guessing that if it sounds wonderful today, that it will continue to sound wonderful for a few decades regardless of how much digital amps and DSP improves.

However, I agree with your concern that about how well they might respond to a voltage spike. These are remarkably compact and complicated speakers. A lot is inside there and I expect repairs would be expensive.

Onhwy61,
“The Beolab narrows your choices down to a single digital source component.. For most audiophiles this would completely eliminate the Beolab from consideration since part of the fun of being an audiophile is working out the system synergy issues!”
Then I’ll probably never be an Audiophile. I LOVE the idea of simplicity. I want the system to sound and look as good as I can get. Then I plan to hold on to it for a few decades.

“Audiophiles like big hulking speakers and 100lb. amplifiers dominating a room. Is that what you want?”
Actually, I think it looks pretty cool. However, we will see what my wife says when she sees the 400 watt amps sitting next to each of the B&W 800Ds.

“If you go to a concert hall you won't hear pinpoint imaging, but a more diffuse type of sound.”
Interesting point. Are you saying that the kind of sound stage that Shadorne is looking for is artificial if the goal is to reproduce a live musical experience?

Thanks for the suggestions of Meridian equipment, I’ll see if I can find a dealer who has some.

Oxia
“To place an omni speaker three feet from a corner where the side-wall is made of a highly reflective material like glass is nothing short of a disaster.”
I’m not sure if it matters, but I don’t believe the Beolab 5s would properly be called an omni directional speaker since the speaker covers only 180-degrees.

As Paul Messenger wrote in Ultraaudio:
“The Beolab 5’s elliptical reflectors are shaped to cover a 180-degree semicircle horizontally, and to restrict the vertical "window." Nearly all of a driver’s output is thus directed forward, reducing the proportion of room-reflected sound the listener hears, effectively increasing the efficiency in the listening zone, and creating a speaker whose output is substantially independent of proximity to the rear wall. Because the Beolab 5 effectively has its own built-in "rear wall," it is immune from reflection-induced colorations caused by the actual room wall behind it.”

Hdomke,

You are correct about the 180-degree radiation pattern, and I mentioned that in my post. However, despite the fact that midrange and treble energy is not being radiated towards the rear, the speaker is still radiating full power to the sides and is thus susceptible to early reflections from the side walls. Consequently they should be either positioned well away from the side walls and ideally the walls should have something in front of them to absorb the energy from the speaker (such as absorptive foam, upholstered furniture, drapes, etc.). Hard surfaces like glass are the worst, as it creates a very acoustically live environment. I reckon that if the speaker is positioned close (within 3 feet or less than one meter) from the glass side wall, given that the BeoLab5 radiates full power throughout the mid-to-treble range towards the side (unlike a conventional box speaker whose output sharply attenuates to the sides), the result would be that the reverberant energy coming off the sidewalls would arrive at the listener's ears with sufficient force and vivacity as to obscure and smear musical detail much more so than in the case of a conventional front-firing box speaker in the same acoustic environment.

The BeoLab 5's DSP should be able to auto-EQ the bass to mitigate excessive room gain (bass boom) caused by the close proximity of walls, but the DSP does nothing to cure the early reflections of midrange and treble energy coming off the sidewalls. For that, good old fashioned attention to positioning and acoustic treatment is needed.

Hdomke,

To clarify my statement about Beolab 5 imaging-
I used a double negative:

I was stating tha the imaging problem (like the congestion problem) may be due to poor performance by the speaker or may be due to set-up. I just don't know. That's why I said an in-home demo in a room large enough to get the speakers away from the walls will be essential.

I'm happy that B&O accomodated you. The sound I heard was poor enough in certain, specific ways that I am inclined to believe that (at least) part of the problem HAD to be the set-up, otherwise those rave reviews would be hard for me to understand.

OTOH, Shadome heard a pair that seemed to be set up in a better (though perhaps still less than ideal) way and heard some of the same issues. I am eager to hear about your demo and i look forward to your post.

To sum up:

1) I wouldn't dismiss this speaker until I heard it set up properly
2) The demo I heard was pretty terrible for a speaker in this $ range.

I hope that clarifies.

Marty

the BeoLab5 radiates full power throughout the mid-to-treble range towards the side (unlike a conventional box speaker whose output sharply attenuates to the sides)

Not all conventional box speakers have narrow dispersion ( no side radiation ) - good speakers will have wide dispersion at least as wide as far as it matters (to be affected by side wall reflection to listener).

"Not all conventional box speakers have narrow dispersion ( no side radiation ) - good speakers will have wide dispersion at least as wide as far as it matters (to be affected by side wall reflection to listener)."

Shadorne,

I think that the reason for our disagreement is due to the way that we're each using the term "wide dispersion". I am not disputing that there are conventional front-radiating speakers with wide dispersion, but it is a fact that all conventional front-radiating speaker will become increasingly directional as you go up in frequency.

To illustrate my point, please take a look at the polar response graphs in this website.

http://www.mcsquared.com/speakers1.htm

Notice how the bass is virtually omnidirectional even for a front-firing speaker, but the midrange and treble gets increasingly directional. This happens because the wavelength of sound becomes shorter and shorter as you go up in frequency, hence the sound waves cannot "wrap" around the loudspeaker. Yes, some front-firing designs manage to achieve exceptionally wide dispersion through a narrow baffle configuration, but in the end there is no way to cheat the laws of physics and a front-firing speaking will never be able match the broadband off-axis output of a true omni-directional design. This is why an omni speaker will always be more susceptible to early reflections from nearby surfaces compared to a front-firing speaker (even when compared to a front-firing speaker that has exceptional dispersion), thus greater care in positioning is required.

In the end, my point is that you cannot apply the exact same method of speaker placement to both front-firing speakers and omni speakers. Placing a conventional speaker 3 feet from an untreated wall may have worked for you in the past, but this just isn't going be optimal for an omni speaker. When you switch to an omni speaker, the difference in its radiation pattern simply requires a change in your thinking.

Oxia,

I agree. I do not like omnidirectional or dipoles or forward and rear radiating panels or ribbon speakers for the very reasons you give about the reverberation they create. It creates ambience at the expense of imaging and soudstage and clarity. BTW: I have soffit mounted my mains - so I have eliminated the nasty rear radiation in the omnidirectional mid bass (with its inherent quarter wavelength cancelations that the listener hears as a "comb filter", altering certain notes as it affects harmonic balance in the lower midrange) The improvement from soffit mount versus non soffit mount is significant - image and tangibility of sounds improve further and make for a very solid soundstage but most people would never bother to go to this much trouble.

I just noticed I was asked questions on your post.

1. I question that review, only because that particular mag never ever in my experience recommends something that expensive, and it is clear the author had a prior thing going on the design of the Beolab. But I question it mainly because they never,ever never recommend anything that expensive in that magazine, but then again, it may be that good. So I don't disregard it, it just strikes me as very strange.

2. I have no idea about the reviewer, except I generally believe most reviewers try to do a good job and he seemed fairly technically knowledgeable during the review.

And I LIKE omnis, because you are not nailed to a sweetspot ...and no matter what anybody says, the omnis I have measured have better dispersion than any box speaker I have measured, by a fair amount. It is a tradeoff if you are not sitting in an exact spot, which, I agree, will tend to be the absolute best measured place if a room is done right. The question is, do you want a solitary hobby or one you share... do you want to sit in more than one spot? If so, omni, if no... box.

Cheers!
Chris

Well, I have picked my speakers, and they are not the Beolab 5s.
I love the idea of the B&O speakers, but on careful listening, I have to say that the B&W 800D speakers appeal to me more.

Granted, with proper amplification they are about twice the price of B&Os Beolab 5 speakers. But they are more appealing to me. I've already ordered them.

But in time if B&O stays with their innovative thinking I think they will get it right.

Shadhorn,

You state:

" I do not like omnidirectional or dipoles or forward and rear radiating panels or ribbon speakers for the very reasons you give about the reverberation they create. It creates ambience at the expense of imaging and soudstage and clarity."

This is actually NOT the case with German Physiks - makers of the only full-range, single-element point-source omni driver. That is what really enamored me of the brand and why I took on the US distribution. UltraAudio just reviewed the HRS-120 model from GP, with Jeff Fritz observing:

They produced the most expansive, most three-dimensional soundstage I’ve yet heard in my room.

The sound was melt-the-walls-away wide and deep. The result was that the speakers truly "disappeared" from the music, leaving behind only some of the most beautiful sound I’ve ever heard.

The HRS 120s kept a stable image even when I listened a couple of feet or more off axis.

What I instead heard was bass that was reasonably extended ... with good speed and integration.

The HRS 120s could flat-out rock when called on to do so.

Germans Physiks loudspeakers have something unique: their sound. The Dick Dipole Driver, now virtually perfected, has been put to good use in the HRS 120, where it produces a sound that is quite marvelous -- I loved listening to these speakers.

You might just fall in love with them. If you do, I can just about guarantee that you’ll be the first on your block to have a set, and that your audiophile friends will gawk in amazement when they first hear them.

In my mind, the DDD driver is the most technically accomplished omni driver design extant. It is a "have your cake and eat it too" proposition, providing huge soundstaging, as well as proper and lifelike imaging. So far my experience has been that GP speakers are the only direct-radiating omnis to accomplish this feat.

(no - it is not just a present-day Walsh driver. Check out the DDD technology page on German Physiks' web site for the background:
DDD TECHNOLOGY

German Physiks speakers are probably the more expensive omni options out there, but they are invariably also the most highly accomplished.

Cheers!

Chris