Apachef1 - you didn't read carefully enough.
Drew, RW, Duke - no doubt that many subs are best. I neglected to provide one important fact - I'm not really expecting the sound/bass to fill the entire space. We listen 10' away on the couch and it just needs to sound good there. The rest of the space is "background-music" territory. Also, I was being vague with 30x30x15 - the space is quite irregular and there are no room node issues.
Two bigger subs along the back wall with the speakers is probably how I need to go. They just need to be good air-movers and I will need to spend a lot of time dialing them so I can get some fill all the way up to the 80-100 Hz region.
John - on the contrary I have not been pissing into the wind - I learned my lesson on that matter a good four months ago and don't plan to try it again, certainly not in the winter.
Seriously - I have tried some horns. Horns do have their issues. 10' is too close for big horns to gel. Etc.
This problem is a problem of bass, so going with horns all-around is not really the solution. It would be if I wanted HIGH SPLs and wanted them all throughout this space but that is not what we do.
Now, one of your big horn-loaded bass systems might be something... but wouldn't fit. |
Buconero117 - New speakers? YOU'RE THE DEVIL! YOU'RE THE DEVIL!!!!
Kijanki - have tried 200W SS and digital amps - tube amps have more & better bass.
Turns out there ARE bass nodes - there is a spot over in the dining area that has mucho bass response. Damn!
Well, there's one REL sub on the way already. We'll see what can be done. Neither the listening position nor the speakers can really be moved. |
The reason dipoles do not excite as many room nodes are the nulls to the sides. Directly to the sides, the waves fully cancel and there is no output. (Yes, I've had dipoles along with everything else.)
Kijanki, I think the 938 is a very good all-around speaker. Superb, actually.
Your idea of rotating the cabs would probably not work all that well since all cabinet bass is largely non-direction under, say, 60 Hz or so. Also, the speakers are each more than 3' from the side walls already (but I have them very near the front wall for bass reinforcement). |
Apachef1, it seems you failed to note that I am not interested in pushing those drivers to the limits of their excursion, causing distortion. The realization that I have come to is that even a three-way floorstander is not capable of truly pressurizing a space of this size. Adding "more power" is not part of a solution to the problem I presented both for the reason of driver excursion *and because I'm not desiring higher SPLs*. I never said the music is not loud enough at the listening seat - it most certainly is.
Cancellation between subs and speakers is obviously something that has to be dealt with in setup.
I'm not interested in changing the sound of main speakers, which in general I like, especially by a move as radical as going to horns. I'm confident that's not necessary.
Adding a pair of large subs isn't going to really pressurize this space as happens in a small room either, but it's bound to be an improvement. I'm pretty confident that quality stereo subs carefully setup and crossed high enough to fill in even the 40-80 Hz area is worth a good try. |
Tvad, it is very generous to offer me a pair of the excellent Classic Audio horns. I would prefer the T1 but will not complain about either. If I did go to front horns it would be those speakers, or possibly one of John K's custom offerings. Or - if you were really going to splurge - the Cogent field-coil horns, which are the best speakers I've ever heard.
They still needs lotsa help below 60 Hz tho. |
Apache, was that really necessary? Your childish response strikes me as the time-waster here. Just couldn't handle being told politely that you did not grasp the nature of the problem? This sort of nonsense is one of the reasons I don't post much around here.
Let me explain things to you in a little more depth. Your recommendation for "more power" was intended to do - what? Radically alter the frequency response of the speakers? Of course it would not do that, but my explanation of the issue makes it clear it is primarily a frequency response issue. Adding more power just might improve dynamics, which isn't what I complained about, but it sure wouldn't fill in the low-mid bass region unless I *also* turned the *volume up*, which I had/have no reason or intention to do.
Manufacturers (good ones at least) voice speakers with the notion of some room-reinforcement of bass in mind. Most speakers do sound 'thin' in an extremely large acoustic space, which is what we have here. Thus, the problem could be stated as replacing the room-reinforcement that occurs in a small-medium room, which means somehow boosting that bass. That means more driver area for producing bass one way or another.
Tvad's idea of going to horns with 15" bass drivers is not bad, as they have so much direct-radiating area that it might make a difference, but I don't think it would really solve the problem completely and is not viable for financial and other reasons. |
Tvad & I know one another a bit and I'm pretty confident he saw my tongue-in-cheek suggestion that he buy me the horns for what it was.
The fact is that your advice didn't speak to the issue at all and I don't think you cared for that being pointed out, however gently.
I stated in the OP that I was simply ruminating on the issue and not seeking any & all advice in the world including changing the entire system. |
Kijanki, you are correct; it is not like they are flat to 20 Hz. But even if they were I think they would sound a bit thin here.
One reason I would not change speakers to something that would do that is that the SE tube amps that I tend to favor will never control large woofers going down to 20 Hz.
(Another is that I think the speakers that it would take to really do what I want here would weigh 200+ lb and be extremely expensive. And most would still not properly do it.)
So, those are the reasons that external bass augmentation is the best solution.
Even most speakers that do go down to 20 Hz would not solve the real problem, which is just that there is essentially no room reinforcement to speak of, and extra output in the 20-80 hz region (or so) is what's necessary. |
Yes, Tvad, I will procure a pair of those Altecs. |
Don,
Were you the one who told off Aunt Stacy at the party, too? Her passive-aggressiveness can be trying, yes, but damn.
Seriously, don't sweat it, but thanks. It's best to keep it light here.
And guess what? Today, the system sounds wonderful out in the big room. Sometimes that sense of pressurization is really nice, or necessary, and sometimes it just isn't. For whatever reasons (probably mostly psychological).
[Que Charlie Brown Christmas theme.] |
Bmckenney, I mispoke there really: one speaker is 3' from side wall. But the other "side wall" is just a 1' jog in the wall - it comes out just 1 ft. And then another 5' later it jogs a bit more for the bedroom door and then the foyer. But the actual wall is 15' from that speaker.
So, in another words, the speakers are in a 15' "alove" along that wall, which is essentially open on the right side. The speakers are about 8' apart, with the listening distance at 10' as I'd said.
That wall is the only possibly location for speakers. It's how the house is built. The living room is open on the right (foyer/dining room) and the rear (dinette & kitchen).
Shardone, I have tried subs only for very low bass, crossing them sharply at 30-35 Hz. So I think that using subs (and good ones) crossed higher but at lower level might fill in that light-sounding midbass nicely.
I probably somewhat exaggerated (unintentionally) the problem here in the OP. It's not like the room sounds terribly thin or awful - as a matter of fact it sounds great most of the time on most material. But it is lacking that very full/pressurized bass feel you get in smaller rooms. There is "enough" bass to shake the floor on some material, but it's not the same. I've been listening in this room for years, and had not "noticed" this problem, nor had others comment on it, until I acclimated myself to the effects of listening in the smaller room. |
