Fish, Here is perhaps one of the least expensive amp options out there I have seen that has similar power to your integrated but also advertised ability to double down to 4 ohms. SOme good reviews out there on it, though I have not heard, but low cost might help make it a viable option to consider at some point. Do the SPL meter test first though in order to get a clearer handle on what is going in currently. Class D audio amp |
"The thread that refuses to die! Will it survive to 1,000 responses? What is the record?"
We're in the middle of a "cliff-hanger", hoping to find out what happens in the end. Like "who shot JR?". |
I suspect quantitative analysis of recordings of the system will be inconclusive at best do to difficulty of assuring all parameters that went into the recording. But ya never know...
I'm willing to bet the new MF amp will do much better. IF dynamics and bass is what OP is missing when listening, as best I can tell that amp should do it from what I read, and I would expect OP to hear better results in those regards and overall.
Although specs or bench measurements into 4 ohms would be re-assuring, advertised current delivery capability and verbal claim in MF literature to be able to drive more challenging speaker loads sounds promising.
I had MF A3CR amp prior to current BEl Canto Ref1000ms. They seemed up to the task of handling my larger more difficult load speakers, OHM 5 series 3s. These are a challenge but possibly not as much so as the OPs PSBs from what I read. THe OPs new trial amps would appear to be significantly beefier than the A3CR on paper in regards to both power output and current delivery, a good omen.
We'll see.... |
I agree with Rrog. Its another way to look at what has been said regarding your specific amp/speaker match, ie the amp can drive the speakers, but not OPTIMALLY, which is what is required for good bass and dynamics. The upcoming amp change should be a big step in the right direction. We'll see... |
"What is the solution?"
Hasn't changed.
Need to change amp or speakers, until you find the combo that floats your boat. It's called a system upgrade, right? Assuming speakers stay for now and amp changes, switching to a more beefy dedicated power amp that can double down to 4 ohms would be the most effective strategy to follow to help cut to the chase. |
Fish, until you make a change to try a more effective pairing of speaker and amp, not sure there is much else to say.
Once you have that in place, then additional tweaking may or may not be needed as well from there. IT all depends on how "finicky" you are able getting a particular sound that you seek. Its the typical scenario for any "audiophile" . It may take some time and money but if enjoying your music to the max is your goal, it should be worth it in the end. |
One thing to add is that a less than optimal speaker/amp pairing does not necessarily mean that either device is faulty or defective. Just that they are not the best match for each other electronically.
Given that, depending on how long you have owned the amp or speakers, the best one might expect from a dealer is perhaps some trade-in value towards an upgrade. That's fine. Live and learn! If it has not been too long, a good dealer might offer full trade value, but even that is not a guarantee.
So if you want to move forward, find out what your dealer can and will do for you, but consider other buying options as well, including buying used to help minimize the loss when you try something that may or may not work out, which is often the case when one has discriminating ears. |
"'I can't assume a dedicated power amp will solve the problem till I try."
It's an assumption until you try but based on sound supporting evidence that the amp is not the best amp for those nominal 4 ohm load speakers. Other than this, pretty much all else is pure speculation at this point. So address the known issue first. It will persist no matter what else you try or do otherwise. |
Hopefully the new amp is coming this week and will help pave the way out of hifi hell into utopia. |
"It ain't over till the fat lady sings."
..without losing the bass and dynamics! :^) |
I'm wondering if OP got his Brystons to run with PSBs or stuck with just headphones as he mentioned in last post a couple weeks back. |
I'm thinking if the Grado headphone sound floats OPs boat, BRyston + PSB is a reasonable pairing to try. OR maybe he's just more of a headphones guy. That's a lot cheaper and easier to get right most of the time!!! :^) |
That integrated looks like a nice package.
If there is an integrated at any reasonable cost that can drive a hard load as well as a good separate power amp, its probably a Class D integrated like that, though I have not heard that one specifically. That's because of the smaller power supply needed for CLass D and less potential for EM field associated to affect other crcuits. RFI can be a problem with CLass D amps, but newer designs seem to have a pretty good handle on that and that should help application in an integrated I would think.
We'll see. Anxious to hear how it turns out. Remember that some break in time for a new amp might be needed before it sounds its best. |
Hmm, well I thought i read that Yamaha model to be Class D, but maybe not.
Maybe this amp will do better than the last one. I tend to like most Yamaha amps I have heard, but have not heard that one. I hope it works out. |
Fishing,
You should really review the thread and take tne doubles down to 4 ohm advise seriously. You might find a good match otherwise but that is the spec that will help identify the amp you need. I thought you understood this and were going down that path but now it sounds like you are back to where you started.
Good luck. Not much else to say at this point except live an d learn. |
Tbooe,
I see you use smaller monitor speakers whereas OP was having his bass issues with larger full range speakers that are probably more sensitive to amp matching due to more low end extension. |
Yes, I am curious to hear as well.
I'm hoping it works out but clearly Fishing is basing his buying decisions on something other than the recommendations that have been offered up here. More power to him! I just hope it works out! Nothing on paper to indicate a major difference in bass performance should be expected, but paper never tells the whole story.... |
Damping factor is speaker input impedance/amp output impedance. High damping factor means lower amp output impedance. Amps with high damping factor are better able to control driver movement, when needed. Some speakers will benefit more than others. In general this should help produce a clean, detailed articulate bass as opposed to one that is less controlled, looser sounding, or possibly muddy. This will likely be of benefit with more full range speakers like the PSBs that tend towards lower impedance in the bass frequencies. Amp damping factor can be a significant factor in how one amp might sound compared to another. |
"When I let the Accustic Arts have a go at the 87dB/4-ohm Walsh 4.5Mk II -- a speaker more in line with the amp's 190-watt delivery into such a load -- it was late in the Power 1's stay yet it gave me more of the same. While I doubt that the Power 1 will be confused with any of the mega-watt bruisers, bass through the Ohms came across as properly linear, nicely detailed and, again, very much in control. No matter what the speaker, the Power 1's bass remained highly damped and well handled. My Ohms are still breaking in and though not quite the most transparent speaker I have in the house, the Accustic Arts amplifier held up its end of the midrange bargain with smoothly flowing detail and true instrumental timbres."
My guess is the bass performance to expect with the PSBs should be somewhat along these lines. John Potis, the guy who reviewed that amp on Six Moons, was one of the most reliable equipment reviewers out there IMHO. |
Looks like a very nice integrated. I hope it works out. |
"If you have not heard the bass come around in a week we can safely assume (as we did before) that it is not the amplifier at fault."
I have not read anything that indicates this amplifier will be the nth degree in terms of extended and dynamic bass like a good doubling down power amp would be with the PSBs (still those, right?), but it should be quite good otherwise as best I can tell. Amps that an better this one in every way should be much fewer and far between though I would say. |
I will be most surprised if it turns out those PSBs cannot play loud without voice coils overheating. I would expect most integrated amps to start to clip well beforehand. But ya never know.... |
If speakers were connected out of phase, bass would be impacted from the get go, not more so over time. That could have just been a perception that it got worse over time. Whatever. If it sounds good now, take a note on how to wire correctly so you can do it again if needed. Reds to + and blacks to - in all connections from amp and into speakers should do it! |
ALso note that there is no reason to biwire from a single amp to multiple speaker connections for biwiring. It may work fine if done right but more chance for error. Just make sure jumper on speakers between reds/+s and other jumper between blacks/-s is in place and conect to speakers in phase properly just once. |
I use similar AUdioquest cv6 wires with the battery powered DBS system. I doubt that is an issue. It's effects are nil to most marginal at best. Bass should be unaffected no matter what. |
Yay, I detect a happy customer.
Wait till he see's the high priced consulting bills we're all about to send him.....
Especially Al's! |
I'm still wondering, if the issue was a simple out of phase speaker connection or worse due to attempt to bi-wire the speakers from a single source amp incorrectly and that actually caused more deterioration over time? I'm suspecting the latter would be more impactful, though out of phase wiring alone would impact bass at all times.
I do not recall the biwiring attempt being mentioned early on in this thread but maybe I missed it? That would have been useful info! Way more problematic and likely than any amp overheating due to load over time in a major way, though that could certainly happen.
Oh well. Glad the facts came out eventually anyhow.
If the biwiring was mentioned early on and I missed it, I will waive my consulting fee. Otherwise, I will be charging more interest now!!!! :^) |
Well, suffice it to say that any biwiring complicates things with more ways to get it wrong than right and results would not be good. |
...but gotta wonder what the original MF amp would sound like now..... |
"This thread as a whole is a great example of audiophiles and audiophile forums at their best. A very special thread indeed. "
You mean as an example of how audiophiles tend to obsess on fixing their sound based on limited facts and thus spend vast amounts of time and money in the process? :^) |
"The spirit of assistance was strong in this thread."
Oh, yeah, that too!
Luckily, the force was with us I suppose.... |
"But why didn't it end a long time ago? "
I could be wrong but I do not recall the ill advised attempt to bi-wire the speakers from a single source amplifier ever coming up until late in the game, after the issue had apparently been addressed already. That would have been a good red flag early on. Not sure how/why that did not come up earlier? In lieu of that, I think we were all grasping at straws in lieu of that key fact.
Any lessons learned? What might have brought this to a happy conclusion quicker? |
Even now, I am not quite sure the bi-wiring was done in a harmful way, but it was clearly ill advised and increased the chances of doing it wrong and experiencing problems as a result.
There was so much going on at the OPs end that it was very hard to keep track of what the current state of his system at any particular time was. Not a good case study for how to efficiently and systematically resolve a problem with ones stereo, though still an interesting case study to learn from nonetheless.
Its always hard to diagnose a problem that one (other than OP and his crew) cannot actually hear. Internet threads are always limited that way, not the most effective tool alone for sure. Its a game one plays by choice realizing the limitations I suppose but with the hope that things will work out still in the end faster than they might otherwise. |
For me it reminded me of the the need to make sure fundamentals (like proper wiring) are correct and not assume that just because someone does not like what they hear, that it is necessarily the equipment's fault. I knew all of that already I suppose but this was a good reminder to sometimes expect the unexpected. |
Another lesson learned for me was when something is not going right, keep things as simple as possible. For example, don't attempt to bi-wire right out of the gate. Audiophiles (including myself) tend to make things more complicated over time.
WHen something goes wrong, you have to isolate the problem. That's harder to do as the system configuration becomes more complex. The best approach may be to stip things back down to a minimum, and regression test from there. That may still often require having spare pieces around to swap in and out for comparison when needed. |
If it had a happy ending, that's good enough for me. Nobody had me in a choke hold forcing me to try to help. |
