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Bass--How much is too much?

I have been into this hobby for over 25 years and have many many systems, amps, speakers, etc, and the one common thing they all had was that low end bass was either non-existant or was very subtle. It seems with most high end systems, the goal is mid-range purity over the amount of low-end energy. In the past, I have had systems tweaked to the point which vocals were rich that brought on emotional connections with the music, but without low-end bass energy, which can bring on a physical connection as well.

My system uses the Celestion SL700 SE speakers with the Celestion SL6000 Subwoofer system. Listening to this set-up, I have so much low-end energy which I have never had in the past 25 years. The low-end is clean, it does not distort the Mid-range purity.

I am a member of the Bay Area Audiophile society and through there have been able to listen to a considerable number of other peoples systems. None of them had systems with bass which could be phyiscally felt, none had a subwoofer. Bass notes could be heard and localized, but not felt.

I guess my point is, that I have grown accustomed to high-end systems which bass was merely used to subtly fill in the gap. I keep asking myself if my set-up now with loads of bass which i can feel is wrong. I have had a few other audiophiles come over and listen and they too are not accustomed to the amount of low-end energy which my Celestion 6000 subs put out.

I have heard many audiophiles mention that because of the huge problems integrating a sub into a 2 channel setup, they tend to not use a sub, is this the reason why many forgo the search to integrate low end bass into their systems?
justlisten

Showing 3 responses by shadorne

shadorne's avatar
shadorne
7,491 posts
 
I keep asking myself if my set-up now with loads of bass which i can feel is wrong

It depends....organ music, Black eyed peas, hip hop, rap and dance all have bass you can often feel.

If you are physically feeling the bass on all forms of music then there is something out of balance.

I have heard many audiophiles mention that because of the huge problems integrating a sub into a 2 channel setup, they tend to not use a sub, is this the reason why many forgo the search to integrate low end bass into their systems?

The issue is that bass energy is enormously difficult and expensive to reproduce accurately. A good sub that just helps with the bottom octave can cost as much if not more than both of the main speakers - all this for just the bottom octave!

The treble frequency range is the cheapest range of music to reproduce accurately (tweeters do this with relative ease and with little power). The mid range is much harder primarily because your ears are the most discerning in this range and this is where you have most music and vocals. However, physically, the bass is by far the toughest to reproduce without heaps of distortion. Since your ears are extremely sensitive to 100 Hz compared to 20 Hz, sub woofer harmonic distortion can easily bleed out of the 20 to 40 Hz range and ruin the bass from you main speakers. Linkowitz has a web page describing this issue. So trust him not me.

Linkowitz states

if the 40 Hz 2nd harmonic of a 20 Hz tone is at a 24 dB lower level, then it will sound equally as loud as the fundamental. This corresponds to 6% 2nd harmonic distortion. The 3rd harmonic distortion would have to be below 1%, or over 38 dB down, in order that it is less loud than the 20 Hz fundamental. It all leads to very low distortion requirements. The fundamental frequency sound pressure level needs to be above 70 dB to even become audible and it should not be masked by higher frequency distortion products.
For a detailed investigation of requirements see: Louis D. Fielder & Eric M. Benjamin, "Subwoofer performance for accurate reproduction of music", JAES, Vol. 36, Number 6, pp. 443 (1988).

Enough said.
shadorne's avatar
shadorne
7,491 posts
 
What does your neighbor's wife think of your bass in her house? Or more importantly what does your wife think?
shadorne's avatar
shadorne
7,491 posts
 
IMHO what differentiated them was not db level but speed of the leading edge of the notes.

What Newbee describes is EXACTLY what you tend to get from an accurate subwoofer. It allows you to clearly discern different bass instruments as the timbre comes across clearly rather than just big booming bass. The kick drum does not bury or mask the bass guitar for example.

The slightest harmonic resonance in the bass (1 % distortion or more) simply clutters everything up...it means that many instruments are all producing stronger harmonics in the 60 to 300 Hz range where your ears are so much more sensitive that this effect dwarfs the proper balance of a musical bass.

The really big bass you hear from small cheap subwoofers is almost ENTIRELY coming from harmonic distortion - impressive but you can't distinguish anything anymore due to the "masking" effect of those higher distorted harmonics. It is akin to the sound engineer simply jacking up the 60 to 100 Hz range with an EQ to give a Britney Spears "hit me one more time" sound - nice but you don't need that on every track yoy listen to.

This can 'over-power' some midrange music, which can ruin the sound for me.

Well said John - this is EXACTLY the problem with small cheap subwoofers and the best remedy is to AVOID THEM altogether, which many audiophiles do (it also explains the "huge sub woofer integration problems" that most audiophiles face)

Of course it is understandable that nobody likes to fork out the similar $$ for a subwoofer to cover the last octave as they do for their main speakers => therein lies the problem and explanation for frustration with integration. Good bass is expensive - there is no free lunch and those who expect a free lunch from a sub rarely get musical bass.
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