B&W Signature 800 Vs. the new 800D Diamond

I heard both at an audio show last december. I didn't like the new 800D's much at all. Very colored. Went into the next room to listen to the Signature 800s with high end Esoteric gear and was completely blown away. I'd take the Signatures in a heartbeat over the new diamonds.

Jafox, I heard the D's with Classe electronics and the Signatures with the Esoteric gear. I wanted very much to like the D's. They were in the larger display room and they were getting a very detailed sales pitch by the distributor. I was very, very disappointed in them.

Brianmgrarcom, I know I may stand alone for the most part in the evaluation of these speakers, but my colleague who joined me felt the same way about them. I heard very little sonic difference in the tweeters, and the bass and midrange drivers on the Signatures were uncolored compared to the D's. I will concede the possibility that the D's might not have been completely broken in. But in that case, why the hell not? One of the biggest audio shows in all of NE Asia and you run speakers that aren't broken in?

Otherwise, YMMV. Mine certainly does.

John,

I'm well aware that speakers are system dependent and that a change in the electronics, cables, etc. could have a noticeable effect on their output. But I'm not writing a full-scale review here; I'm stating an opinion based on first hand experience at an audio show. And I was very upfront about that. Anyone reading my comment would know that it was based on a one-time experience at a show and naturally a change in the electronics "might" change the perception. But I don't have the luxury of doing that kind of thing nor the time. Sometimes we have to make decisions based on the experiences we have and that's all we can do.

You said: "When we hear something that is just not "right", a lot of time and effort must take place to determine the cause. There could be multiple reasons for this....including our personal preferences."

That's pretty obvious John. I'm not interested though in checking out the bad link in a causal chain. I'm interested in assessing a pair of speakers in a limited amount of time and then maybe making a purchase. And just as obviously this will have everything to do with personal preferences. Our ears are not the same. You don't have objectivity here; you have a set of very subjective experiences and people use those to make decisions about audiophile investments.

That said, I find B & W's top of the line signature and nautilus range to be right up with JM Labs as my favorite speakers for the music I like to listen to. The Signature 800 is probably my favorite speaker of all. And the Dynaudio line, which I tried very much to like as well, I don't care for at all--too rolled off in the top end. So yes, this is all a very personal, very private set of reactions, but ones that I wanted to share with the person who set up this thread. He asked. I responded. That's it.

"If this post would have been different, such as, “Classe vs. Esoteric”, would you have replied that you feel Classe seemed colored?"

The original question, Brian, was the following: "The 800 Signature Red Bird Eye goes for about $13K and the new 800D goes for $16K. Which one would you rather take?"

I reported that I would take the Signature 800's in a heartbeat. The reason was because of what I heard at an audio show here in Seoul last December. I feel pretty confident that the sound I didn't like from the D's was from the speakers not the electronics, but I don't absolutely for sure. I was just reporting that I heard both sets of speakers from top of the line electronics, and given that, I much preferred the Signatures. i wasn't making a review. I was stating an opinion. I know it might be counterintuitive for someone to take an older tweeter over a newer state-of-the-art one, but as I suggested in my previous comment, I didn't notice a significant difference.

"Out of two full and separate systems you heard you are giving the entire credit of their sonic difference(s) to the speakers."

No. In two full and separate rooms, I preferred one set of speakers over an other and reported that fact to a person trying to make up his mind about both of them. YMMV, and mine does too. I'll remind you. this is not a review. I'm not borrowing the speakers for several weeks to hook up into my own electronics, which of course would provide a different sound from other electronics. I'm not sitting at home with a pair of Signatures to compare with a set of D's sent to me from B & W for an analysis for Stereophile. A person asked for an opinion as to which of the two sets of speakers I would buy, and I told him, based on a listening experience I had.

Perhaps the question that should be asked here isn't why certain high-end, state-of-the-art electronics might cause the new B&Ws to sound bad, but why the new B&W's cause certain high-end, state-of-the-art electronics to sound bad. I'll bet it isn't just the electronics or the cables in the causal chain.

And sorry to hurt any feelings about stating a contrary opinion to the prevailing common sense.

"All I can say to your post Washine is that I simply don’t agree with your logic and quite frankly found it contradictory or at least confusing."

What's contradictory or confusing about my logic? I haven't done anything different than what anyone else does when giving an opinion about a piece of audio equipment. The only difference from what most people say on the forums about gear is that they don't usually bother to mention the rest of the gear while evaluating. In contrast, I stated the electronics in which I heard the gear. Not so with magazine reviews, where a condition on review is always a mentioning of cables, electronics etc. and usually a comparison with the speakers that left the chain before the insertion of the review ones. Your argument is that there might have been something amiss besides the speakers since I wasn't hearing the Signatures in direct comparison with the diamonds. Possibly, but I doubt it. Something was wrong in the synergy with the drivers that colored the sound. I gave it a good amount of time. Walked around the speakers several times. Sat through many changes of recordings. I was really hoping that the diamond tweeter would have the kind of clarity I've found with the beryllium tweeters of JM Labs. Not so. I much preferred the JM Labs. And the previous tweeter used in the Signature 800s was already pretty unbelievable. I'm sorry to say I really didn't notice a significance difference. You did. That's what different ears are made of.

Back to the original question: "The 800 Signature Red Bird Eye goes for about $13K and the new 800D goes for $16K. Which one would you rather take?Thanks in advance for your advice"

My original answer: "I heard both at an audio show last december. I didn't like the new 800D's much at all. Very colored. Went into the next room to listen to the Signature 800s with high end Esoteric gear and was completely blown away. I'd take the Signatures in a heartbeat over the new diamonds."

Does anyone really have a problem with my preferring the Signature 800s over the diamond 800s? This is my preference, after all, which was what the person querying was asking about.

"'Out of two full and separate systems you heard you are giving the entire credit of their sonic difference(s) to the speakers.'

And then you replied,

'No. In two full and separate rooms, I preferred one set of speakers over an other and reported that fact to a person trying to make up his mind about both of them.'

So you replid no to what I stated then followed it up by saying exactly that."

Brian, try to be a little bit more attentive to language. You said, "you are giving the entire credit of their sonic difference(s) to the speakers" I never did give the "entire credit" to the speakers. I made a judgment based on my listening that 800D's were coloring the sound rather more than the Sig 800s. I have already acknowledged to you the possibility that the electronics might have had something to do with the differences. That's a bit different than "entire credit." But no, my sense was that it was more the speakers than the electronics because of the resonances, etc. that I was hearing. But I also acknowledged the possibility that the speakers might not have been entirely broken in.

I'd appreciate it if we could try to be less shrill during this discussion. We're all friends who disagree. That's it.

Jafox, let's try to be a little less insulting toward people who might disagree with you. There were high quality components all the way down used at the audio show I went to, including the speakers that didn't impress me as much as I had expected.

Jafox, I'm going to give you a little lesson on internet etiquette. When someone submits a postion contrary to your own about audio gear, you can politely ask them a question or make a comment, as you seemed to do at first. Or for example, you could say, "that's an interesting response. Not many others have had it but perhaps you have different ears," as Brian suggested at first. Indeed, I do have different ears. I listen primarily to electroacoustic music. Something I doubt that most of you have ever heard of. Since you weren't in the room yourself and know nothing of the specifics of my background in the listening of these or any other speakers, you would be wise not to make too many quick assumptions about what occurred with my ears and why. Nor do we need pompous and asinine comments about car tires. I don't need class superiority from you.

While you accuse me of making a hasty assessment about speakers, I can just as readily level the same charge at you about my listening experience. You don't know. You weren't there. You didn't hear what I heard. You weren't next to the speaker to see what it was producing. you don't have my ears. and if you've had no firsthand aural contact with the sonic challenges of electroacoustic music, then I'm not sure if you really, truly know how to listen to speakers in the first place.

Since you've made your point about the issue you've tried to convey for the past few days, I'm going to make my point more explicit too. I see from your system list that you have Sound Lab A-1 speakers. I want you to explain to me and the rest of the board how you came to choose those speakers and under what conditions of comparison. I also want to know how many times you've questioned the decisions and assessments of other members of this board, particularly when they haven't been upfront about the different electronics in which they tested equipment. In short, I too, want a chance to be just as condescending as you have been over the last few days. So I want you to pony up some information. And I'll say the same for Brian, who now has added 802Ds to his system, so I can see a bit of what has motivated his replies to me. He misreads my "logic" after already assuming that I gave "full credit" of sonic differences to speakers only. My initial post was not in any way that elaborate.