B&K 307 vs. Denon 5800 Debate

Okay.. Okay.. I get it... :) Lets look at the size difference between the 202 and the 307. The 307 is MUCH larger than the 202. The 307 is a 7 channel receiver and the 202 is a 5 channel. Justy, how will the extra amplifiers, cards and powersupplies fit inside the 202 box? I believe the B&K 202 (as with most multi-channel manufacturers) uses descrete amplification, which means one 105w amp (plus associated components) per channel.

I think I'm going to call B&K and tell them I want to upgrade my 202 to a 7 channel unit just to see how long
they laugh at me.

If it must be one of these two receivers, go for the B&K 307 but do yourself a favor and try the Marantz SR-18 or if you prefer the SR-18EX. Audio quality of this unit is FAR superior to the B&K. I used to LOVE the B&K and compared it to many Marantz products since they were sitting in the same room as the B&K. The B&K was clearly better than ANY of the Lower end (sub SR-18) receivers. But.. one day I ventured into the other room and found the SR-18 and even without an A/B comparison, I could tell the Marantz SR-18 was better. Fuller, richer, more detailed sound, no harsh brassy highs, and transparency not common in this price range. Now I understand why they keep that Marantz SR-18 in the other room.... Because it would be impossible to sell a B&K with it around. To make matters even more interesting, the B&K was hooked up to B&W N-805 speakers and the Marantz in the other room used "in wall" B&W speakers. Clearly the B&K had the advantage of sounding better but still did not. I was heartbroken at the time and I felt stupid for thinking so highly of the B&K. Anyhow.. this is my experience and I hope that you can use this information to your benefit.

Hey Ears, Update? What are you going to update to? Can you update your 202 to Dolby Ex? Can you update to 7.1 channel sound now that it's available? Can you add additional line level outputs for other speakers? Does it have extra slots for additional amps?

No... of course you cannot. Maybe though you can update your 202 with an emulated version of 7.1 so it makes 5.1 sound like 7.1 with only 5 speakers.

I'm just being sarcastic and kidding around a bit because I don't get what this "upgradable" thing is all about. Your 202 is DTS compatible and I really don't see another format comming down the pipe which would be WORTH upgrading to. If anyone has any input on this I'd love to
hear it.

Oh.. of course you might be able to upgrade your 202 or 307 processor to decode DVD-A... but... then you'd need a new DVD player to go with it.

Any insight on what this whole "Upgrade" thing is all about?

Thanks Justy..... Except what good does DTS-EX do for a 5 channel receiver? DTS-EX is 6.1 and the B&K 202 is NOT a 6.1 capable amplifier/receiver i.e. it does not have 6.1 amplifiers, or outputs which leads me to belive that there is truly NO point in upgrading. What is the point of being able to decode DTS-EX if you cannot listen to it on all six channels?

B&K customers are loyal because this product is likely their first venture into "higher end" audio and they have to justify the price of these "mediocre" sounding boxes
somehow. Then, along comes marketing with the idea of being able to upgrade.

I guess it's like upgrading your PC right? So I could go out today and upgrade my Pentium 233 with a Pentium 4 processor so I have the LATEST technology!!!

Just like updating a B&K to the latest technology!

Oops.. The fitting of the new Pentiums doesn't fit in the P233 motherboard. Wait a second, the RAM is different! Oh No!! The System bios is not Win ME, 2000, NT4 or even 98 compliant? YIKES!!!

SO my main point is be careful when people tell you that you can UPGRAGE your $3000 receivers as new formats come out. It is likely that any new format will require a change in not just software... but hardware as well.

So.. Justy, be careful when you presume that your equipment
will never be outdated.

Ears, it remains to be seen whether DVD-A is better or worse than SACD. I agree that SACD is a great format but DVD-A hasn't yet been released, so making comparisons at this point is not fair.

You are correct, DAC's can be upgraded and in MOST cases upgrading a 20bit DAC to a 24bit makes a tremendous difference! I encourage all who can do this to do it.

You use ScanSpeak Relevators on your speakers huh? They are highly rated and are used heavily by DIY'ers... So.. Did you build them yourself? I know you reference how much better your speakers are than 99% of the home theater buffs out there but could you give us more detail? I'm also curious why someone who has within the top 1% of speakers of all of us "buffs" out here would settle on a B&K or the "best deal" receiver to drive those amazing speakers!

People should buy what they like. I am not dissing B&K by any means. I think it's a great product and before I did extensive research which ultimately led me to buying separates, I thought it was the ultimate! I loved it! But after comparing the 307 to a Marantz 18ex, I just went limp, and became very bummed out by the B&K. I didn't buy the Marantz but it led me to McIntosh and from there, to Krell.

I still believe the Marantz 18ex is the best sounding "comsumer grade" receiver out there. I'm curious if anyone else has listened and done A/B comparisons between the Marantz and the B&K.

My gripe is with upgrading and the belief that one can simply upgrade to a format (which currently doesn't exist) some day when it becomes available. How can anyone make that claim?

Ears, The new (silver) Krell KAV-HTS has true analog bypass for SACD. Older version of the Krell HTS sound HORRIBLE when playing SACD. Thank god Krell realized this and will be upgrading older versions in the second quarter.

Are you trying to tell me that a B&K amp or pre/pro is better than a Krell?

So you say that DVD-A disks and players are availiable? Really? I didn't know that! I thought that the only thing close which was currently available was DAD (plays on any DVD player) which is different but commonly confused with DVD-A will not play on non DVD-A compliant DVD players. Ears, who has a DVD-A player available and where can I find the media?

Chesky shows that DVD-A will not be available until late February - March...

Ears... I've looked, searched and scoured the net. I cannot find any DVD-A players, or media currently available. The only thing I can find is DAD which is DVD without the video. Even Audio assylum is full of speculation and no real comparisons.

Ears for better information on DVD-A go to http://www.digitalaudioguide.com

It seems that very few (if any) players are available and even there are fewer than 40 DVD-A releases available.

This makes a true comparison between SACD and DVD-A very difficult and speculative.

The true "format to own" will be dual format capable and dual capable disks SACD/DVD-A!

Phyre3, Finally a reasonable explaination. Thank you!
So what if I bought the high end of the B&K amplifier line (the one with the same chassis as lower end ones) with all the channels... What is my upgrade path? I presume NONE
other than buy new.

Traditional "upgrade" companies upgrade the processors and do not ADD amplifiers to their products. Before home theater, there was never a need to upgrade your stereo to a "trieo?"... Whatever... three channel sound.

My whole point on this issue is that since HT is SO relatively new and formats are changing so often, a firmware upgrade may do nothing becuase in order to
enjoy your new firmware/format, you need additional
hardware to support it.

Just like your point of SACD "upgradability". Upgrading
my Receiver to be able to decode SACD will give me no benefit since my current sources DO NOT READ SACD. The media first must be read before it is decoded.

And... if you buy a SACD player.... guess what comes with it? A DECODER!!! I seriously doubt we'll be seeing SACD transports in the near future. But... who knows, this is a strange industry.