Wig, my player is just landing from Austria now, but a mini review will follow after it's done 250-300hrs on the Isotek cd :) |
Hi Zephyr,
I just recently sold my CD-5 to trade up to the CD-5s with xlr input. Thanks for sharing that info re: the differences. My Dealer got a 'lite' version of your update. Btw, Ayon have also further refined the power supplies in the CD-5s according to their website. Ayon recently updated the CD-5s page on their site, so you may not have seen that yet.
Designing a twin lense, sacd/rb player adds cost and complexity. I think Ayon (like Vitus) decided to focus on smoking good rb performance and building awesome value players. There is also a tweak I know of which improves the CD-5s a further 15% ;) |
Hi Zephyr, I agree with your comments regarding Doug Schroeder who has posted on AG and is well respected/regarded on this forum. Fyi, there is another thread comparing the Esoteric X03SE to the previous model (CD-5) which might interest you - "Esoteric X03SE vs Ayon CD-2 or CD-5".
My first cd player was the classic JVC XL-Z1050 which used a front loading version of the Victor transport paired with a Vimak DS-1800Mk2 dac. The move up to the CD-5 was revelatory! Musical, dynamic, liquid/flowing sound and bullet proof build quality. What also surprised me about the CD-5 was how it's tube preamp paddled the backside of my previous pre-amp (the preamp section of my previous Classe Cap-2100). Improved bass was the first thing I noticed, but it was clearly better in every way.
Yes I will post back in this thread with my initial impressions, then put a more considered post up once the player has done 72hours on my Isotek cd (equivalent to 250-300hrs). I will also be playing in a brand new Modwright KWA-150 amp at the same time, so it wont exactly be apples vs apples, but given the MW is essentially neutral in character, the Ayon's character should still be easily detectable. Re: the upgrade board, send me a pm for details. |
Wig, you can't go wrong with the CD-5. It is a tremendous bargain given what you get; a full Skylla tube dac, tube pre-amp & high end transport with Austrian engineering & build quality. There are near new CD-5's up for sale for $5k at the moment. |
It was brought to my attention by my local Ayon Dealer that he has been receiving enquiries about the availability of an upgrade board for the CD-5s. I apologize to the OP as I only skimmed over the original question. My comments related to the 24/96 USB board available from Ayon which I had fitted to my old CD-5 for the buyer. It was also brought to my attention that Ayon now have info regarding this upgrade posted on their website. My apology for the apparent confusion. |
05-04-11: Akk_sound
Congratulations on new CD-5s Akk! Btw, the CD-5s also had some other upgrades incl further refined power supplies, improved analogue volume control, new pre-amp design & improved tube output stage. Gerhard Hirt told me the actual sonic improvement is tiny between the CD-5 & 5s as both players are already designed to the edge. Ayon's main goal was to add more features.
I actually think Gerhard is being a bit modest. Streamers should get a good improvement with the upgraded 24/96 asynchronous USB card & those connecting a tt via the analogue in's should also get a good improvement since the signal is no longer subject to a-d-a conversion as you mentioned. The CD-5s is a fully sorted player & is the one to own imho. I rate it as one of the top 3 rb cd players in the world, and one of the top 5 cd players at any price, however that is just my subjective opinion. In it's own price category however, it is without peer. |
..am loving what I hear, but boy - it takes awhile. Didn't begin to show its real potential until 50-100 hours , and now is blossoming at about 150 hours. yeah that's the massive power supplies & big Mundorf and polypro caps...enjoy! |
Due to major changes in my system including speaker cables (Jorma Origo)speaker cables (Origo biwire), amp (Boulder 1060), racks (Taoc) & isolation (Acoustic Revive/Alto Extremo), and difficulty locating 32a parts to re-terinate one of my Acoustic Revive reference pc's, this review is long overdue! Having owned the previous CD-5 & now the CD-5s, I feel the improvement in the CD-5s is substantial, as much in the sound as its added features. The CD-5s as mentioned in some earlier posts has a number of improvements over the CD-5 incl: an improved Japanese analogue volume control (CD-5 used a digital volume control), "true analogue in" (analogue inputs on CD-5 were subject to a-d-a conversion), improved tube output stage incl: 2 x custom-made higher value (3.3uf) Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps (1% MKP), 2 analogue inputs (incl 1 x xlr) & 24/96 asynchronous USB board. There are also a group of toggles switches at the back of the player including xlr/single ended, 0/180° phase, Normal/Direct to amp & low/high gain. After setting the toggles to xlr, 0° phase & direct to amp, I experimented with the gain & upsampling features and established early on that I preferred low gain paired with my Boulder 1060 with upsampling switched on. Some reviewers feel that the CD-5s sounds better with upsampling switched off. I think this will be an individual choice & system dependent to some extent.
The CD-5s is almost the perfect high end rb cd player & what the CD-5 should have been. I say "almost" because I indentified 3 components which could be improved. Now as a preface I should pay homage to Gerhard Hirt who uses the best tube tester in the world (an Amplitrex AT1000) and tests every tube fitted to their players over all 5 specs, so the factory tubes are very well sorted. Never the less I wanted to take my player to the limit, so I upgraded to matched NOS 6H30P-DR output tubes & matched NOS Russian 6C4P rectifiers. I further identified an opportunity to ugprade the factory Burr Brown OPA627AP op amps. The OPA627AP's were about the best op amps 20 years ago, but are only midrange op amps today. The best op amps I could find were Burson single HD discrete op amps. My research found that the Bursons (despite their claims) were no better (or worse sounding) than the very best ic op amps available today.
Altogether, the above mods made a BIG difference, elevating an excellent high end rbcd player to a great player. The Bursons turned a coke bottle-size portal into a wide open vista, doubling the soundstage width & adding detail. The sound is also more analogue and smooth (less technical sounding) & there was more bass.
So having re-connected my system, I initially ran my Isotek cd for 64hrs (equivalent to 129hrs normal play) & had a listen. The sound had smoothed out quite a bit, but still sounded closed in and tight, so the Isotek cd went back on for another 56hrs (equivalent to 112hrs). I then treated one of my reference cd's with my RIO-5II, RD-3 & Finyl cd treatment, and settled in to listen. Wow! Now we're talking! The Ayon now sounded warm, open & very musical. Over the course of the weekend, I put a further 15hrs on it, and all I can say is wow!! I was listening to my Pink Floyd Pulse cd tonight, and after the above treatments the sound was incredibly pure, timbraly accurate, warm & liquid sounding, yet authoritive & exciting. But what blew me away was the sound staging! On track 3 of Pulse (cd #2), I was literally looking around my room as sounds appeared in different parts of the room, and following sounds across a vast, enveloping sound stage. I closed my eyes & my Marten Coltrane Altos disappeared. I was experiencing the same excitement I get from a live performance, which is something not even the Vitus SIA-025/SCD-010 combination did for me, though the SIA-025 is the purest, most melifluous sounding amp I have ever heard.
The addition of the Boulder 1060 was certainly a huge upgrade from my previous Classe Cap-2100, and drove my Altos for the first time with solid bottom end authority, and sounded natural, fast, accurate & musical. I would say the Boulder is on the slightly warm side of neutral. What suprised me was how good my modded CD-5s sounded as preamp! This is the pre-amp which comprehensively beat out the Aesthetix Janus in my earlier review for another forum. In that review, I noted the improvement in sound stage depth from the earlier CD-5; a known quality of Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps. This was complemented by the improvement in soundstage width from the Burson upgrade. Just remarkable for an integrated player!
The CD-5s is hand-made in Austria at Ayon's factory, and the quality is very evident. It's brushed aluminium chassis is lovely to look at with the solid-looking polished aluminium top loader (a modified version of the latest Phillips Pro 2 LH version) which includes a heavy acrylic cover incorporating an integrated magnetic puck which works a treat. The display looks great in red & provides more information than the previous model. The trade off is the characters are smaller. Owners with larger rooms may find themselves squinting to read the display. I found it ok for my smallish size room. The remote control is the best remote control i've ever owned & feels solid and heavy. It also looks smart in matching brushed aluminium with silver buttons that feel solid & give a reassuring mechanical 'click' when actuated. There is no backlighting, but then again there are gorgeous silver metalic buttons instead of cheap rubber ones. I love the convenience of controlling my cdp, source selection & volume from one remote.
It's not just the quality, amazing circuit design, features or sound which have so impressed me with Ayon, but also the first class after sales support I have received from Ayon President Gerhard Hirt. My experience with Ayon has been a delight & given me great pride of ownership. In conclusion, I am blown away by the CD-5s which to me represents a smashing high end value. I give it my highest recommendation!
Disclaimer - I have no connection to Ayon, but am just a happy customer.
Cheers,
MG |
12-18-11: Melbguy1
Due to major changes in my system including speaker cables (Jorma Origo) ..oops, meant to write "including interconnects (Jorma Origo)", but i'm sure you get the drift :D |
Hi Joe, thanks for your kind words. I didn't want to repeat too much that has already been covered in review, but relate my experiences. I should clarify my comment about the factory op amps providing a "coke bottle-size portal" related to the technical design of this type of ic op amp. The factoy op amps still produce great sound, but from a technical point of view, the Burson Single HD op amps create a wide open portal for the music to flow through. I would say objectively they made a 15-20% improvement to the sound overnight which was surprising. |
Thanks DH, as long as you accept the PBD is cold sounding (like DCS) and you either like that kind of sound, or have tubes elsewhere in your system, then it could be a happy marriage. A PBD deck in my system would definitely tip the balance too close to neutral/cool. Tonal balance & musicality are more important considerations to me than SACD per say. With that said, I am contemplating moving to a seperate Ayon preamp & high end SACD player in the next 15 monthts or so (probably Accuphase), but for now, i'm wrapped with my modded CD-5s. |
Hi Lula, I was probably being a bit unkind to the MPS-5. I have only heard that player in a friend's system and have not done a direct a/b comparison. Keep in mind my description of the MPS-5 as "cold" is in comparison to my Ayon CD-5s & Accuphase players which i'm familiar with. FWIW, I thought the PBD sounded very analogue, smooth & easy to listen to. Resolution was excellent. Ok, the PBD is the best cd player to your ears and preferances. At the end of the day, I think if you put 5 audiophiles in a room and lined up my modded CD-5s, an MPS-5 & DP-700, you'd get 5 different opinions. They are all great players. |
It becomes tiring when aspiring reviewers and Industry types repeat too much of what has already been covered in reviews, or can be found on Ayon's website. Good to hear of your first hand experience running the CD-5s as dac. I'm sure Chris at Bryston & Ayon USA would appreciate the plug. |
Hi DH, that's interesting. I have found my Ayon set to low gain & the 1060 to be a good impedance match. I doubt there is much you could throw at a Boulder which it couldn't handle ;) |
Audioman, well done. Yes I agree, if you have the space for a separate transport and dac, i'd agree that approach should sound better. I don't know how a CD-5s would compare (as transport) to your Bryston, but there is no doubt the Skylla 2 dac (on which the CD-5s is based) is awesome! As an integrated player, it is no exageration to describe the CD-5s as over-built and one heck of a player at or even near it's price point. |
Audioman, have you tried 24/96 streaming via the CD-5s? If you're saying that ripping a cd to a computer hard drive, then passing the signal (with no additional information) then sending it back to a transport sounds better in every way, that strikes me as counter intuitive. I do agree high rez music sounds superior to lower resolution music, but you can also buy a range of high res music on cd from different labels including Chesky, Decca & Blue Note, and in different formats like XRCD, K2HD, HDCD & DXD. They said record players were dead, well look at vinyl now. I'm not tossing my cdp, and in fact plan to upgrade next year! |
01-26-12: Wig
I like the fact that all I have to do is open the transport drawer and place a cd in and push play, no fussing with backups, files, laptops or downloads. ...and downloads don't come with luxury packaging, booklets, post cards etc. I've also never had a cd become unstable and crash :D |
At the end of the day, vinyl destroys sacd, downloads and every other digital format. I find downloads pretty souless for the reasons already mentioned. Groups springing up to discuss how many 'bits' their dacs are processing only goes to show how true musicality and soul is taking a back seat. |
Hi DH, to be fair streaming from HDD's & servers is maturing rapidly. You made a good point about buying the music you want in whatever format is available. I still plan to buy cd's & vinyl where possible in the next few years & build up my collection, but will inevitably buy a high end server in 4 or 5 years & control my library by Ipad. The CD-5s provides an ideal platform for streaming up to 24/96. |
Audioman, I don't doubt your digital solution sounds great, but there seems to be a lot of steps in the signal chain, so i'm less convinced about of any advantage from shortening the signal path. Less moving parts? Well look at Accuphase, Ayon & Vitus; they produce bullet proof transports which are very accurate, so I don't see any deficit there. Whilst I do agree that mainstream cd's will inevitably fade out, leaving mostly audiophile cd labels still producing high rez cd's, I don't believe in absolutes like "This is the future". Who says so? That is not true for me if I don't agree with it. I plan to buy a lot of audiophile grade cd's and vinyl in the next few years and continue to play them on my cdp. My next cdp is likely to be the future replacement for the current Vitus SCD-010. I'd be more than happy to put the Vitus up against any streamer on the planet. At the end of the day however, vinyl played on a high end rig is still clearly superior to even the best digital front ends i've heard. As for Ayon, since I already reviewed the CD-5s in an earlier post, I wont comment any further on it's sound or repeat specs or part bins which can be readily found on Ayon's website or in the many online reviews. Suffice to say it is a wonderful sounding player. |
Antigrunge, thanks for your f/back. I would think the very best cdp's like Vitus would be considerably more accurate than the majority of cdp's. Also, Boulder's 1021 player features up and oversampling (8x) and a buffer which reads approx 2 minutes ahead, so the performance is comparable to ripped files. Not sure how the Vitus works, but to my ears the SCD-010 sounded just a touch better than the Boulder, but it was very very close. |
Hi Antrigrunge,
I agree some cd treatments such as Ultrabit Platinum Plus can make a qualitative difference to the sound of cd's, but it's not really arduous; one treatment should last for years of normal use. It's interesting you mentioned your modded AA Capitole SE. I did an a-b comparison of a stock previous model Ayon CD-5 vs an AA Prestige player, and the CD-5 beat it comfortably. My modded CD-5s is significantly better, and my next player (likely a future Vitus model) will be in another league again. I appreciate the technical benefits of ripped and server based music, but at a certain level cd players like my modded CD-5s & higher end players like Vitus demonstrate what cd playback can do. With that said, I plan to invest in a high end server in a few years and connect that to my cdp's dac via SPDIF. I will still continue buy and play cd's however. I find downloads 'soulless' to be honest. There is no luxury packaging, booklets, photos, postcards etc which you can flick through and read (which often provide as much enjoyment as the cd itself). And a picture on a screen can never replace a colorful cd top cover or booklet. Audiophile cd's and cd's in general will be like gold in the future once the novelty of computer-based music has diminished, the world is devoid of character and wondering what went wrong. In 15 or 20 years, I predict high end cdp's & cd's will make a comeback just like vinyl did. |
02-26-12: Danielk141,
Well I guess it depends on the level of deck we're talking about. The vinyl rig I heard demonstrated this to me was a Transrotor Rondino with an SME-V arm, Miyajima Shilabe cart, Vitus SP-101 phono stage & Siltech Royal Signature Series balanced cables. Fwiw, I like the warm, analogue sound of the EMC-1UP. The Ayon CD-5s has a similarly warm, analogue sound, though I would say the Electro is a bit more laid back in comparison. Glad you're enjoying your cd player :) |
Hi Leicachamp, I asked Dan this very question previously, and this was his response -
"Hi, first of all, it is true that the input impedance of our amps is 15K at 50Hz. Our peamps range from 100ohm-300ohn-600ohm and I have driven our amps WELL with all of our preamps. A 300ohm Zout is NOT problem."
The reality is, the KWA-150 has a relatively difficult input impedance of 13K ohms which presents a difficult load to a preamp with high output impedance. The CD-5/5s has a moderately high output impedance of 300 ohms. In regard to your noise issues, this could be due to a number of things, but starting with the most obvious (cables); reviews have indicated that balanced out is more neutral in sound, whilst single ended sounds a bit warmer but at the cost of a higher noise floor. Conceptually, I prefer balanced cables and always use them when possible. I would rule line noise out as the Ayon is a pure power source. How many hours does your player have? The CD-5/5s needs 250hrs to fully bloom. Are you using stock tubes, or rolled tubes? The stock tubes should be perfect as Ayon use the best tube testing equipment in the world & only send out players with tubes tested for all 5 specs. With the KWA-150 I recommend setting the gain to 'low' and make sure the rca/xlr toggle is set correctly. Hope that helps. |
Denon, i'd agree the preamp section in the CD-5s is good enough to knock off the Ref 3. In regard to your Krell 302, the imput impedance is set very high on xlr & should be benign to even the weakest tube preamps.
In regard to the metallic "ping" which you hear when you press play on your Ayon, this comes from the 6H30 tube filament and is very normal. Ayon do not use any negative feedback or compensators to erase tube noise or hum as most manufactures are doing. Boulder are the only company which properly understand negative feedback, but they are an exception. Most other applications of GNF have a negative impact on the sound.
Regarding the noise issue you're experiencing on "loudly" recorded cd's. Firstly, xlr cables help lower the noise floor through common mode noise rejection & better grounding, but also roughly double line level gain. The CD-5s already has high gain, and due to your Krell's high input impedance no doubt your over-juicing your amp which is causing the distortion. As a starting point, i'd recommend leaving the gain toggle set to 'low'. Remember the clipping point doesn't change with balanced cables, only the position on the volume control where that occurs. If the above doesn't solve your issue, i'd switch back to single ended cables which are apparently lowering the line level gain to an acceptable level.
Concerning the 6h30DR tubes, yes they are much superior to the factory EB's and provide a substantial improvement. But given the diminishing stocks of these tubes, I wouldn't have (personally) posted my source for the tubes, unless of course I didn't mind stock levels running down to ever looser matches & prices correspondingly increasing. My 2 cents. |
Hi Mn9394, i'm not surprised your CD1s is struggling up against your Lamm amps! It sounds like you're looking for a warm, analogue sounding cdp. My advice is, give most consideration to the dac section, digital inputs and how it handles server based music (especially if this is going to be your last cdp) as we will all be using servers or pc's based digital sources in future. With that said, some players around that price range which I like are of course the CD-5s, Ancient Audio Lektor Air-V, Zanden Model 2500 (pre loved), Vitus RCD-100, Vitus SCD-010 (pre loved). I haven't included the ARC in this group purely because I find ARC a bit too neutral and lean sounding for my taste. In regard to the Ayon's preamp section, think of the CD-5s as an excellent transport and valve dac which is it's main function. The preamp circuitry does not take up much real estate...just compare a Skylla 2 dac vs a CD-5s. Besides, the preamp circuitry is switched off when you run preamp out. I can't really add much more to my review above. It is a terrific valve cdp.
Regards,
MG |
02-27-12: Leicachamp
I have heard the KWA-150 set up with a CD-2s as source run single ended into the MW. The speakers were Wilson Benesch ACT's. This combination sounded wonderfully warm & liquid. Very tube-like! I'd definitely go single ended if you're considering a CD-5s/KWA-150 pairing. Incidentally, if your budget can stretch a bit, i'd grab the 'signature edition' which is even better, but that's a story for another thread. |
