2. home-theater
  3. 167933-132884

AVR: Internal 2 CHANNEL AUDIO MODE. OR: HT BYPASS (external equipment for 2 CH Sources)

1. AVR, every one I had includes an AUDIO MODE for 2 CHANNEL which sends ALL signals ONLY to L & R Amps/Speakers. True 2 Channel sources, OR, ’unencode’ or ’down-mix’ surround to 2 Channels (often sounds better). Critically, surround center signal goes equally to L/R. Poorly done surround or cable created pseudo surround is ’put back together’.

or

2. HT BYPASS: separate L/R inputs direct to AVR’s L/R Amps (at full gain). You send volume controlled L/R signals (devices with their own volume control or via a preamp). (I’ve never had one, nor anyone I know).

https://hometheateracademy.com/home-theater-bypass/

In both cases, the AVR L/R amps only are driving the L/R Speakers, thus the amp’s sonic signature is the same. Using ’better’ equipment to feed the same amp?
...........................................

Why HT Bypass? Shortage of Inputs?

Blu-Ray players play CD, SACD so that’s already covered.

Aside from everything else, you need 2 remotes if you use HT Bypass (to control 2 Channel Volume).

Pure Signal? Many AVR’s offer ’PURE’ or ’DIRECT’. Many preamps offer tone bypass, i.e. Pure, Direct. Thus the preamp is simply a source selector and volume attenuator.

...............................................

IF I wanted ’better’ 2 channel equipment, I certainly would want ’better’ L/R amp(s) (most probably Tubes) so the AVR will be off and a method to get to the L/R speakers is needed.
...............................................

And, let’s not forget, the need for VIDEO (creating and maintaining L/C/R Imaging over WIDE multi-person viewing audience) is fundamentally different than AUDIO (refined/precise 2 Channel Imaging for a single listener).

................................................

My contention: a specific speaker solution for WIDE L/C/R imaging for Home Theater, and try/use the AVR’s 2 Channel MODE for 2 channel source and force 2 channel to see if a surround source might sound better (often does). Simple Mode button, same volume, single remote.

2 Channel Music: a separate speaker type, thus a separate system.

I’ve always had a dedicated PC (even prior to HDMI) as an optional source for my HT, that’s my streamer and full net access, You Tube, Netflix, Prime etc. is on Smart TV’s now, but not in the old days. Even then, PC the source, I often find trying the AVR’s 2 Channel Mode sounds better. Audio and Video on the motherboard, no fan noise of dedicated video card.




elliottbnewcombjr

Showing 13 responses by elliottbnewcombjr

elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
luxmancl38

Interesting, what are the equip model #s? I'd like to see the features/options, often these alternate uses are not apparent.

I once searched for integrated amps with remote balance controls (and volume), discovered many were buried menu items, not mentioned in product literature, had to download and read the manual, and often discovered remote controls were not shown in product photos.
elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
soix

HT Bypass is a DIRECT INPUT to the AVR Front L & Front R AMPS.

It USES the AVR’s primary L/R amps, at full gain, it does not bypass them, it does not involve other amps.

i.e. A CD Player, with it’s own Volume Control, like my Oppo 105 can be plugged into the HT Bypass, therefore get the Oppo’s superior processor’s 2 channel music signals, but the AVR amps are driving the main L/R speakers. However, the Oppo’s superior video (I don’t use mine) needs to be a direct input to the AVR, so ....

Several sources, thru your ’best in the world’ Preamp, still go to the AVR’s L/R amps thus the AVR is still driving the speakers, the preamp a switcher with volume control.
........................................

Using separate amps for 2 channel is a different solution than the 2 options I mention here:

1. AVR’s Internal Audio Mode (auto-select/selecting/forcing 2 channel), or
2. external volume controlled sources (single direct, or several thru a switcher i.e. preamp or integrated pre-out) via AVR’s HT Bypass INPUT.
.......................................

Back to my Oppo 105. I can send it to one of the other AVR Inputs. IF 2 channel SACD or CD, the AVR will ’know’ it’s 2 Channel, OR, I can ’force’ 2 channel mode via AVR’s remote. 1 remote, or 2? Why/

...........................................

Let’s not forget, those of us with Home Theaters have chosen our AVR’s, and are very happy using them for Movies, any content involving Video. Most of us, I bet, use the HT more than the Music System, I sure do.

Many people do not have either the space, desire, funds for 2 systems, so, a ’dual’ system is often sought. Is the HT Bypass any better, that’s the question.

I contend the Imaging is fundamentally different for Video or Music, but, if you get a nice wide l/c/r image, you can always sit in the middle when listening to music.

Bass extension, i.e. SUBS with smaller Mains become an issue, i.e. Are the SUBS IN or OUT in your setup. I advise planning the crossover location so the subs are still involved in the AVR’s 2 channel mode. ’SUBS IN for either AVR Internal 2 Channel Mode, or HT Bypass method.


elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
artemus_5

Many times I have been too clever for my own good. Wives are good at reveling this. Takes us years to admit it.
elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
deadhead1000, others

It's easy to pontificate and dismiss (not you, others in any HT thread), but many people want/need to solve the problem: HT for the family, and optional better 2 channel for music. Two sets of speakers not possible, and equipment space limited in the HT.

With a simple operational scheme. We sell our souls for convenience, gotta avoid that.

I think you got it, go for the easiest operational hookup, live with that sound quality, my contention, use the AVR's 2 channel mode, and even try that mode for content with surround, you may be surprised how much better it sounds, especially programs with musical content. I like surround for Blackhawk Down, Dinosaur Stomps, but MOST musical content sounds better in 2 channel mode.

or

two systems: HT or 2 CH Music.

2 sets of speaker wires with banana plugs to a 4' long female banana pigtail from the speaker works. I used to run 3 amp comparisons (2 channel): McIntosh MC2250 SS; Fisher Tube Receiver 500C; Fisher Mono Tube Amps. I put a hook on the wall behind the speakers to hang 3 sets of color coded speaker wires so I didn't need to bend much.

Everyone chose tubes over SS (sold the McIntosh), using a Cayin AT88 with remote volume now, the Fisher Receiver and Mono Amps idle now.

Then and now, everyone chooses LP over CD, and R2R tape over LP.






elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
2 amp switch

https://www.amazon.com/Amplifier-Receiver-Speakers-Selector-Switcher/dp/B0796KGVXT/ref=asc_df_B0796K...

being cheap, or impatient until something arrives, I’ve used equipment ’backwards’,

like this Niles Speaker Selector, used ’backwards’, can be an amp switch for the front speakers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264779064938?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=533...

Not sure about internals, impedance protection, anybody know ’right’ and ’wrong’ about this ’too clever for my own good’ solution?
elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
soix

Well I’ll Eat My Hat,

You are correct, I misread the link.

Wrong: I thought the AVR had the HT Bypass Input (wrong), to convert itself into a simple 2 channel amp, skipping all of it’s processing and deactivating all of it’s speaker outputs except it’s Front L & R. Wouldn't that be a decent budget solution?

I think this is Correct:

It requires both an AVR for HT Surround Sound AND a separate 2 Channel Integrated Amp with HT Bypass feature.

The HT AVR needs FRONT L & R Pre-Out.

HT Bypass is an INPUT on a separate 2 channel Preamp or separate 2 channel Integrated Amp.

here’s a list of ones with that feature I found

http://audiophile.no/en/articles-tests-reviews/item/426-amplifiers-with-processor-input

found here

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ht-bypass-input-a-list-of-integrated-amplifiers-and-preamplifiers-that-have-one.3127374/

................................................

Kindly explain what/how the front speakers are wired/powered.

It’s still a case of two amps to one set of front speakers isn’t it?

How does surround sound front l and front r get to the speakers; how does 2 channel music front l & front r get to the speakers.

In each case, what amps are powering the front speakers?

I think both systems must be on and the separate 2 Channel Integrated always powers the front speakers. No front l or r speaker wires from the AVR. Thus the integrated sends any 2 channel source to the front, or it sends the Surround Sound front signals via HT Bypass (should be called HT Front IN IMO).

Yes?

This presumes 2 separate systems, not for the budget minded.



elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
soix,

You were kind when I got it backwards, thanks for that. I assumed the AVR would be in control, that was my error. It's completely unaware of what's happening here.

So you start with a Stereo System, and use it for the AVR's Front Signals. I'm calling it a 'Front Stereo System'.

Thus, the WHOLE POINT of it: all FRONT content is ALWAYS thru the 'FRONT STEREO SYSTEM'.

1. AVR MUST have Front L & Front R Pre-Outs (to the separate front stereo system's HT Bypass L & R inputs).

2. no speaker wires from AVR to front speakers.

3. AVR speaker wires to the Center and Surround Speakers which are only ON in Surround Mode.

4.  'FRONT Stereo System' (integrated amp or preamp/amp combo) ALWAYS what drives the Front L and Front R speakers, via it's speaker wires. (not front center, that is driven by the AVR).

either:

a. AVR OFF: 2 Channel Music (any source) thru the 'Front Stereo System'

or:

b. AVR ON: AVR's Front Signals' to/thru the 'Front Stereo System' as part of the AVR's Audio Output (any AVR Mode: 5.1/7.1 ... Surround; Direct; 2 Channel; even forced 2 channel as I often do ...).

5. Modern equipment has 'HT BYPASS' for this specific purpose

HT Bypass uses the front system amp's full gain, thus the volume must be controlled before it enters, as it would be by the AVR volume control. Relative Balance of AVR front signals to other surround channels, once set, is maintained by the AVR, unchanged by the 'Front System'.

6. Older Stereo Systems without HT Bypass can be used this way, however the coordination of the front volume can be tricky.

i.e. My Cayin Integrated has an input labeled 'Pre-In'. It works exactly like 'HT Bypass', it sends whatever it gets via that input directly to it's L & R amps, the volume is controlled by whatever is connected. It's design is to skip it's selector and volume circuits. Works for either my McIntosh mx110z preamp, or, any AVR Front signals.

i.e. An old amp, without any kind of bypass: you can use any line level input:

BUT now there is the problem of volume integration when using the AVR.

I suppose some pencil marks could be established, coordinate 'normal' on both the AVR and the amp's volume controls, then the AVR volume would control 'more' or 'less' from that pre-coordinated start.





elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
big_greg

Now I understand HT Bypass.

Your’s is exactly what HT Bypass is intended for, thanks for the simple diagram, very easy to understand.

My (perhaps other’s?) Backwards Erroneous Assumption:

I started by assuming someone had a HT, and wanted to add better 2 channel to that system. Assuming there were speaker wires from the AVR to the front speakers, I supposed the HT Bypass was a new feature in AVR’s, that was my fundamental error.

’FRONT STEREO SYSTEM’ incorporating a ’HT Bypass INPUT’ for AVR Front L & R makes sense to my mind.

I'm old and left handed, my understanding process is not like most people.


elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
this popped up on eBay, seems like a good deal to me, has HT Bypass

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324716283861?hash=item4b9a9947d5:g:eU4AAOSwgBZg8NGQ

fixed/sold with warranty by maker, lots of features

also found one for sale here on Audiogon, Cherry Finish

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisab76j-peachtree-audio-inova-tube?refsource=hifishark


elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
big_greg

Thanks for your personal experiences. I never heard a Peachtree.

I imagine many people have main speakers efficient enough for 60 wpc into 8 ohms where this would just turn things very darn good easily.

I also assume anyone tempted would jump about looking for any specific model's reviews/comments
elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
mtbiker29.

you are right, those needing a dual duty system, HT Bypass is salvation indeed!

I still want to emphasize, using the same front speakers for 2 channel and video (3, 3.1; 5.1 ...: video needs to maintain L/C/R imaging over a much wider area for multiple viewer/listeners than 2 channel imaging does.

Your setup looks very nice, I’d be happy there,

but I would want to adjust the toe-in (via ’possible movement’, not easy movement of course).

1. best toe-in for one listener (audio or video if sitting in the middle alone);

2. more toe-in for two music only listeners and

3. any video with 2 or more watching/listening.

My music system at the music/dining end of the 'split' room is shown with toe-in for 1.

All my chairs and tables move easily on felt feet on the wood floor, so listening with a friend: little table in the middle, both off-center: left speaker aimed directly at right chair; right speaker aimed directly at left chair.

Very nice results, imaging maintained because you get more directivity, thus more volume from opposite side, and more volume by nearer distance on your side. Works.

Notice too, no solid arms or backs or solid bodys on the chairs, better sound of music on the sofa for Donna, ...

The video system other end of the room, those DBX Soundfield 100’s were specifically designed to do that with some extra tweeters thrown in. My music system tweeters are horns, wide dispersion, no extra tweeters needed even though they are ’crossed’ some, within limits of course.

I haven’t looked, I have to wonder if some current speakers do the DBX thing?
elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
what speakers are you driving?

bypassing a lower quality AVR is one thing, but yours?

Marantz says you have a high end preamp 8805

McIntosh says you have 7 channels of high end amp 8207

I will take 7 gazillion external and internal twists and turns, switches, pots, .... rather than a ’straight wire with gain’ IF it sounds awesome!! yours sounds awesome???

Have you heard something better? If so, are you sure it’s not their speakers?

IF I don’t hear degradation, I’m not losing features or convenience for nothing gained but meeting esoteric ’ideas’. I’m battling that now with whether my Oppo 105 will make a real difference, or just do it because ’they say it’s better’.


................................

you could get ’better’ 2 channel amp for the ’front stereo system’, and let that system handle 2 channel sources fed straight into it, AVR OFF.

then, as you suggest, the 8207 would only drive center, surround When 8505 is sending those signals.

Sub(s)? Depends on your existing main’s bass capability.


elliottbnewcombjr OP
5,200 posts
 
I just upgraded our center channel and rear surround speakers, some used Klipsch. We both like the Klipsh R34-C center, sound and looks, it's low height, wide dispersion, and no rear ports perfect for our setup. 

https://www.klipsch.com/products/r-34c-center-speaker

After volume adjustment (I had to cut it's relative strength): you never know how the tonality will mix, in our case it blended in as well with the old DBX Soundfield 100's as the smaller Bose one it replaced.

The rear ones, replaced some Paradigms, no real difference, just made the Paradigms available for my shop, out go the tiny Energys (my original rear speakers).
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