Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@ghasley if he was a cordial guest he could host this discussion on his own site and reciprocate. He had to come here where we actually are cordial because if you go to his site....

@amir_asr ,

You are arguing against the very nature of how your perception works.

You have already stated that you consider subjective experience is a fantasy. Is there something you are not perceiving yourself possibly?

I am just telling you that your ability to detect differences goes down. If you want to ignore that, then fine.

I am just telling you that your ability to convince me you are legit is going down. Posting links to third party research is legit like the AES white paper, all good. Posting links to your home movies might be entertaining (for you at least) but that isn’t considered legit third party research.

@amir_asr thank you for your reply. Here is what you said:

With other classes of devices, impairments get very small to non-existent.

What devices specifically?

I simply don’t have the time or resources for this type of testing. So measurements plus psychoacoustic analysis stand in as substitute.

I take that as you basically back fit the test to get the outcome you want. Why not outsource it to a third party and not have to guesstimate it?

Stuff subjectivists report are like fantasy to me.

I understand that you are not able to measure your fantasies and so do you discount the subjective experience of your customers? Why are you selling audio equipment and trying to post reviews (albeit even though you state you lack the time and resources to be as thorough as possible) on a topic which you seem unable to connect with which is as subjective as a listening experience.

@amir_asr you have already shared that you lack the time and resources to do thorough reviews. If you want to post videos try using a third party, this is just spam, after spam, after spam. Are you trolling to sell more name badges? No.

I agree with @milpai

That is what is putting off many folks here and elsewhere. It seems like you are not ready to accept any more NEW knowledge and have a closed view.

Did you join this forum simply to keep spamming this thread with your propaganda? I don’t think you are attracting any new members, from these posts of yours. Flaunting your "financial independence", insisting how members should spend their money. I won’t bring up your poddy mouth attempt at humor.

However, you can certainly learn a lot here- about how to make ASR a better audio forum, deal with your fantasies/phobia of the subjective side of audio, pick up some tips on whatever else you are interested in. 

@amir_asr

Our aim is the same as yours. We want maximum enjoyment out of our music and want to optimize our gear to get there

Then right in this thread you also said:

We are not a charity

However, I am OK with you coming over here to spam us then, OK. So, you made a wise decision to at least to focus on maximum enjoyment of music. First, the actual enjoyment part it is ALL subjective so leave your fantasies at home. We deal in BOTH things you can measure like sinad and things you can’t measure so clearly like jamming or rocking out, bliss, chilling, whatever.

I saw the pic of your system, nice speakers, good. So, if you want maximum enjoyment of music try:

1) Having a drink

2) Asking members here about their EXPERIENCE (I know, you can’t always measure that but with practice, it works, trust me)

3) Please realize we actually DO want the same thing, it isn’t a fantasy. You can also measure some things that are purely subjective. If you start a thread at YOUR site maybe we can discuss sometime OK? If you want to start a thread here I am good with that too.

Peace, out :)

@amir_asr , please stop with the home movies, if you want to drop some knowledge, all good. You say you are into technical discussion, why not drop in and discuss then, for example:

@amir_asr

I managed the signal processing group at Microsoft which relies hugely on psychoacoustics.

Did you try the atmos software on the X-Box yet? It is really good. You can set it to atmos, 2, 5, or 7 channel uncompressed, DTS or even DTS-X.

@tsushima1 I get that he is attempting to defend his brand and of course, he has stated he is not running a charity either. He can bully members of ASR into buying name badges. He can bully manufacturers into hiring him as a "consultant" after attacking them on his site. But in the process of trying to defend his brand here he is using the same bullying tactics he uses at ASR. I think the end result is he is tarnishing his brand.

@amir_asr , no one here wants you to lose your income from selling name badges at ASR by jumping the shark. Why not use that passion for IT and objective data into something other than spamming us? Why not try engaging in some audio related threads other than this one. Participate, we won’t attack you if you are friendly, just try to remember, no one cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.

@fleschler , many thanks for staring this thread. You have a nice way of communicating in a transparent fashion whether or not you agree or disagree with something, it never feels like you are "disagreeable. I liked your post in particular about how if you get the room right even more entry level gear will be very satisfying.

If anyone is getting tired of beating this horse to death please try some other threads. I just started one on Atmos music, if you are interested in immersive audio please drop by. If you want to "measure" in immersive audio it is very easy and you can just use your fingers. (with 5 channels, or 7 channels you can use your fingers, when you go above 10 channels it gets a little tricky).

@fair , the ham radio guys have how to videos on you tube on how to make antennas from speaker wire. What a waste of money to use junk cables on high end speakers, you flushed your speaker investment down the drain because those speakers will never perform to potential:

I like the threads here more than most other sites. Extremely seasoned contributors who openly share their wisdom without making you feel embarrassed or shamed. I don’t find that open mindedness and support anywhere else the way I find it here.

@tsushima1 +1

@4afsanakhan , I don't know your budget or your room. I like 10 inch subs for music and movies but maybe you need bigger. As for value Klipsch is often deeply discounted and has over 1700 5 star ratings on Amazon:

@fleschler you said:

the total immersive experience 

With the setup you have you certainly don't need to change anything. It might be interesting to discuss another way to get this "immersive" experience (especially if you like movies from the 30's, 40's, or today)

Please stop my my thread on atmos if you want to discuss more. Thanks

Immersive audio at CEDIA in 2022, check out how Focal deploys 7 FULL range speakers and 4 height channels so no big box subs needed. The demo spekaers are on display, at home you would use acoustically transparent fabric on the walls making both your speakers and room treatments "invisible":

@ghasley , try another thread if the bar is closed in this thread. I like the pivot to cables and immersive audio.

When ASR fanboys (stooges?) feel the need to keep posting propaganda it is not about ASR, it is about trying to denigrate and flame anything and everything, This is the ASR culture today and former members of ASR have already confirmed that in this thread (thank you by the way). Their borg queen tried coming here and he basically self destructed already through senseless, defenseless and relentless spamming. All they are doing is proving what the OP initially said, over and over.

@ghasley , I love your analogy, we are "invading", good one. Uhhhh.. who is invading who?? This is a discussion among hobbyists, about a common interest. I am asking a question about professionalism, courtesy, and opening a discourse. Your point is extremely well taken that although Audiogon welcomes different opinions Amir is free to come here and express himself and then shut down and censor the same posts on his own site

@amir_asr

You want a new test? Come back with real data that shows usefulness.

Your site is to heavily censored for NEW data, NEW opinions, even NEW members that have an open mind. If you WANT the data, stop shutting down people who don’t agree with you and tear down the walls. Isn’t it annoying that you can’t host this thread or a similar thread (even the one you already deleted) on your site without kicking everybody out?

@fleschler +1, every post in this thread (even ones that disagree with you) seems to confirm your original thesis when starting this thread, congratulations! Over 1000 posts in this thread can’t be wrong, that’s how I measure the deal.

I just watched Oz the Great and Powerful in 3D on my 120 inch screen in 7.2.6 Dolby Atmos, thumbs up.

@jerryg123 , nice post on the cable testing, thanks:

"What a bizarrely intensive, educational and special test this has been to do. The aim was to establish a link between measuring and listening. And that was partly achieved. The Top 3 based on measurements is largely the Top 3 of the blind listening test. Both the Shunyata (unanimous), the Van den Hul and the Audioquest were eliminated. However, the MIT (Martijn) and Driade (Yung) were also on the Top 3 list. So there was 70% overlap per author. Not a bad score. And with five cables in total - all scoring well - it is still a very neat score overall."

@amir_asr 

Will you follow ?

Not everyone here agrees with you (shocking) and don't want to "blindly" follow.

Here is an article on audio equipment break in, why not ask Home Theater Review for their data and you can report back OK? Good luck with that...

@jerryg123 , did you notice how actual scientists don’t put pics of toys, like "piggy banks" in their cable reviews? Good example for the pretenders in this thread :)

If anybody here with REW wants to get busy measuring stuff start with the room. I am shocked to see members measuring components and then leaving money on the table wasted because those components won’t provide the best experience without getting the room right. The video below may not work for you but it worked for me. I shopped for the treatments, exchanged e-mails with Anthony and BAM got a fantastic result. I noticed even some of the "professionals" posting here skipped this fundamental step. DSP helps, but DSP + a great room = amazing. BTW, room treatments can be covered with acoustically transparent fabric to make it look as good as it sounds:

Chinese dacs:

If you stream most of your music like I do the DAC isn’t the issue, it is getting a pristine a stream as possible. The streaming services are the bottleneck IMO.

Find ways to upgrade your network, your ethernet, reduce the noise and jitter coming from your streamer, etc. Upgrade your content with hirez downloads, vinyl if that is your thing, etc.

@amir_asr , +1, I think you have been more respectful in your latest posts on this site.

I completely agree with you and appreciate that you added the emphasis:

That aside, I am NOT a scientist.

Feel free to post in some other threads here as many of us can’t even start these threads on ASR, they might be considered controversial or even heresy.

I have no control of anyone.

You control everyone at ASR and we have a consensus of members here who feel you heavily censor your site and bannish contributors on a whim.

You are obsessed with stuff that makes no audible difference.

So are you, you measure and comment on stuff that makes no audible difference all the time.

The topic about whether or not a vendor should offer refunds is up to them. They have to weigh if the additional sales they make because of the policy outweighs the number of refunds they get. It is a strategy known as "risk reversal". The vendor takes the risk instead of the customer. Let them run their company as they see fit and the customer shops as they see fit. See:

https://ezinearticles.com/?Risk-Reversal---A-Strategy-I-Learnt-From-Jay-Abraham&id=1009021

Quick show of hands, everyone here who conducted their last blind listening test with a PANEL of TRAINED listeners, say aye. Congratulations if your every audio purchase gets judged by your panel. See the link I posted above:

"If you want to take the variable of the listener out of the equation, then your listener panel needs training."

When I buy new gear I get a 30-60 day return period. I drop it in the rack, let it break in (I know, the horror) for a few weeks and then take it out. If I don’t miss it, refund. If I can’t live without it "grinrictus" sets in and I buy it.

@fair +1 

A loud member, or a moderator, or a whole pack of them, publicly accuse an "inconvenient" member of disingenuity, of lack of knowledge, or of low intelligence, and then said member is immediately banned, with no way to defend himself there.

For the crowd here that  are blind testing advocates get over it:

My personal preference is getting the opinions of people who bought gear, used gear, and then took a moment to post a review of the gear. I combine both professional reviews as well as user reviews. The cable cranks will blow a gasket about a cable that costs a premium even though they don’t own it, never tried it and never will. Yet you go on Amazon and see a hundred of five star reviews from people who loved it and are now fans of the brand. I’ll take a hundred 5 star reviews with positive feedback over one cable crank any day. Plus if I don’t like it. refund that bad boy. Whether you find value at $10 a foot or $100 a foot as long as it is worth it to you, NP. 

@russ69 +1, Nudell on trickle down tech:

Nudell: At Infinity we started with a very expensive speaker, the Servo Statik, and brought some of the technology down to lower price levels. We've found that some of the most successful companies, be they audio or anything else, start with the highest technology. After people around the world acknowledge that this is the highest technology, then you bring that technology to more affordable prices.

Blind testing at Harmon/Infinity (PS- Don’t try this at home kids!!)