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Audio Research Reference Linestages

Just want to hear if anyone else have a similar experience that I do.
Some 8 years ago I bought my first ARC Ref linestage.
It was Ref2 mk2, which I first enjoyed very much, but soon I found the bass to be to close in the soundstage and the treble too far away which never allowed the soundstage to get really homogenous and create the real music event.
When comparing with a Conrad Johnson LS17 it was very easy to hear that Ref2 mk2 had some issues with it's soundstage.
But I'm a fan of ARC's high energy "big" sound so I bought a used Ref One (later model with Infinicaps and detachable powercord), and it easily beat Ref2 mk2 in every way.
There I had the perfect soundstage with great dynamics.
It simply sounded more complete and homogenous than Ref2 mk2. Still not the last air in the highest treble that C-J LS17 have, but the rest was much better with Ref One.
Recently I tried to replace my Ref One with Ref 3, but after 3 months I gave up.
I found Ref3 to lack dynamics and the perfect soundstage of my Ref One. It simply sounded less involving and a bit lame compared to my Ref One.

Anyone else that have kept their Ref One simply because the find it to sound better than later ARC Ref linestages ?
flex2
flex2 OP
30 posts
 
Hello Jafox:
Actually I owned LS5 mk2 for a while, but found Ref One to be superior.
Less colouration, bigger soundstage and with higher resolution.
In short most things seemed to have improved to my ears.

I just noticed this LS5 mk3 rev. 2 schematic at Manfred's website. Didn't know there where severals revs of mk3.
This schematic is very simliar to Ref One.
Ref One have little more gain in each amplification stage but also have a overall higher gain.
Both seems to have approx. 12dB feedback. (for dynamic reasons???)
VT-100 mk2 also use a very similar circuitry so it seems like most amps was designed around the same principles at the time.

Ref One have a different and later powersupply circuitry though. Like LS25 mk2.
So it's very likely that Ref One simply is a more refined version of the last LS5 linestage.

http://www.arcdb.ws/LS5/LS5.html
jafox
1,456 posts
 
Flex2: Yes, exactly. I understood that the LS5 III was an update due to things learned in the Ref1.....most notably the audio circuit....and a reduction of gain from 30db in the II to either 12 or 18 on the III based on a change to 8 resistors as I recall. I do not think much was changed to the LS5 PS.

One flaw I felt about ARC products was their wimpy power supplies, especially the power transformer. It's incredible how much a preamp's power transformer can affect the performance. I learned this when I had the Counterpoint SA2 stock transformer changed to a Plitron. Swapping between the two external boxes was truly incredible. There was so much life to the music that was simply squelched by the older and pint-sized transformer. I have thought to do this with the ARC MCP-33 that I also own. I know that GNSC did this to a few select ARC updates. I can only imagine the incredible effect it would have on the ARC preamps and line stages of the 80s/90s.
arcl60
24 posts
 
Hello Flex2,
I'm sharing some of your remarks regarding the ref3 and also the LS5MKII that i'm still owning.
I would moderate a little, the Ref3 is really an excellent Preamp, it sounds very liquid with a fantastic 3D image, yes that is not the more dynamic preamp i ve heard. It has really taken time to me to make it work as now, i used 6N30P-DR tubes, and a good power cable. I ve found the LS5MKII more musical than the Ref3 for a long time, but now i do prefer the Ref3 over the LS5MKII (even when i use Telefunken E88CC as you). I have no experience with the Ref1 but i ve listen the Ref2MKII and i ve owned also a LS25MKII. I found them "crispy" and less musical than LS5MKII and Ref3. The doubt a have is regarding the Ref2MKI and the Ref1, and i wanted to give a chance to the Ref2MKI. I ve expected than the Ref2MKI will have been more musical than the Ref3, but now i have serious doubts, and i don't thing i will look for one. The association of the Ref3 with my pair of amp (Ref300MKI) is just superb.
Have you also listen the Ref2MKI ?
Which amp are you using ?
Laurent
dbarger
215 posts
 
I have owned a Ref 2, mk2, a Ref 3, and several lower level ARC preamps. The Ref 5 is a HUGE step up. If Naim made a tube preamp, it would sound like a Ref 5. It offers incredible detail, but also excells at revealing nuances of rhythm, dynamics, and musical intent and subtlety. I upgrade from a Ref3 to the Shindo line, starting with an Auriges and then a Masseto. But with the Ref5, I am back! Really a GREAT preamp. It is anything but a subtle refinement of the Ref3. To your point on the Ref 1, if you like it best, that is a great circumstance to find yourself in. That is how I feel about the Ref5. I can stop looking... again.
flex2 OP
30 posts
 
Thanks for your inputs Arcl60 and Dbarger.

Laurent:
Yes I have listened to Ref 2 mk1 but only shortly so I might not be the best man to ask, but I remember that I found it to be a bit coloured. I wouldn't search for one if you have LS5 mk2 and even like Ref 3 better.

Regarding the Telefunken E88CC:
I can't use all Telefunkens in my Ref One. I simply get too fast and too dynamic, so I have found a combination of 50% Telefunken (first four tubes) and Ei E88CC for the last four tubes. That mix have given me the best sound so far. Very musical and with very natural pace and timbre.
For power amps I use ARC VT-150SE for mid and treble.
ARC 300.2 for bass.

Dbarger:
Great input. Thanks.
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