Jwm:
I'm not surprized.
VAC make excellent amplifiers and Ref2 mk2 is not the best effort from ARC.
I'm not surprized.
VAC make excellent amplifiers and Ref2 mk2 is not the best effort from ARC.
Audio Research Reference Linestages
Just want to hear if anyone else have a similar experience that I do.
Some 8 years ago I bought my first ARC Ref linestage.
It was Ref2 mk2, which I first enjoyed very much, but soon I found the bass to be to close in the soundstage and the treble too far away which never allowed the soundstage to get really homogenous and create the real music event.
When comparing with a Conrad Johnson LS17 it was very easy to hear that Ref2 mk2 had some issues with it's soundstage.
But I'm a fan of ARC's high energy "big" sound so I bought a used Ref One (later model with Infinicaps and detachable powercord), and it easily beat Ref2 mk2 in every way.
There I had the perfect soundstage with great dynamics.
It simply sounded more complete and homogenous than Ref2 mk2. Still not the last air in the highest treble that C-J LS17 have, but the rest was much better with Ref One.
Recently I tried to replace my Ref One with Ref 3, but after 3 months I gave up.
I found Ref3 to lack dynamics and the perfect soundstage of my Ref One. It simply sounded less involving and a bit lame compared to my Ref One.
Anyone else that have kept their Ref One simply because the find it to sound better than later ARC Ref linestages ?
Some 8 years ago I bought my first ARC Ref linestage.
It was Ref2 mk2, which I first enjoyed very much, but soon I found the bass to be to close in the soundstage and the treble too far away which never allowed the soundstage to get really homogenous and create the real music event.
When comparing with a Conrad Johnson LS17 it was very easy to hear that Ref2 mk2 had some issues with it's soundstage.
But I'm a fan of ARC's high energy "big" sound so I bought a used Ref One (later model with Infinicaps and detachable powercord), and it easily beat Ref2 mk2 in every way.
There I had the perfect soundstage with great dynamics.
It simply sounded more complete and homogenous than Ref2 mk2. Still not the last air in the highest treble that C-J LS17 have, but the rest was much better with Ref One.
Recently I tried to replace my Ref One with Ref 3, but after 3 months I gave up.
I found Ref3 to lack dynamics and the perfect soundstage of my Ref One. It simply sounded less involving and a bit lame compared to my Ref One.
Anyone else that have kept their Ref One simply because the find it to sound better than later ARC Ref linestages ?
Showing 12 responses by flex2
Thank you for all answers and opinions. Just to comment on a few things that I don't agree with. My Ref One is dead silent. No tube noice at all. But I had that problem with my Ref2 mk2. Might be a problem with more sensitive loudspeakers, but until now it haven't been an issue for me. Tubes at the moment are Telefunken E88CC and Ei E88CC which both are low on noice. Yes, I assume that ARC always are aiming at more detail and higher resolution, but when comparing my Ref One with Ref3 I find Ref One to be better. Higher resolution and more dynamics. Simply more nerve and musicality. But as you say, it's a matter of personal preference. |
Hello Jafox: Actually I owned LS5 mk2 for a while, but found Ref One to be superior. Less colouration, bigger soundstage and with higher resolution. In short most things seemed to have improved to my ears. I just noticed this LS5 mk3 rev. 2 schematic at Manfred's website. Didn't know there where severals revs of mk3. This schematic is very simliar to Ref One. Ref One have little more gain in each amplification stage but also have a overall higher gain. Both seems to have approx. 12dB feedback. (for dynamic reasons???) VT-100 mk2 also use a very similar circuitry so it seems like most amps was designed around the same principles at the time. Ref One have a different and later powersupply circuitry though. Like LS25 mk2. So it's very likely that Ref One simply is a more refined version of the last LS5 linestage. http://www.arcdb.ws/LS5/LS5.html |
Thanks for your inputs Arcl60 and Dbarger. Laurent: Yes I have listened to Ref 2 mk1 but only shortly so I might not be the best man to ask, but I remember that I found it to be a bit coloured. I wouldn't search for one if you have LS5 mk2 and even like Ref 3 better. Regarding the Telefunken E88CC: I can't use all Telefunkens in my Ref One. I simply get too fast and too dynamic, so I have found a combination of 50% Telefunken (first four tubes) and Ei E88CC for the last four tubes. That mix have given me the best sound so far. Very musical and with very natural pace and timbre. For power amps I use ARC VT-150SE for mid and treble. ARC 300.2 for bass. Dbarger: Great input. Thanks. |
Arcl60: Have you installed all three upgrades in your VT-150SE ? I have never heard anyone mention these upgrades, but they are official upgrades from ARC. One of them is to change from MIT Coaxial caps to Infinicaps, that made a quite dramatic improvment on the over all realism. The other two are a change to the bias circuitry to make the start-up bias more stable until the tubes are warmed up, and the last are change of cables in the powersupply that increase impact and give the amplifier 10 extra watts. I would say that the Infinicaps and the bias circuitry are very essential to all VT-150's. Ask ARC for the instructions if you want to make these ugrades. I'm not surprised that REF300 have better and deeper bass since everything (amount of tubes, powersupply and transformers) are beefed up. Better treble than VT-150SE ??? Well, I have to hear that cause my VT-150SE are absolutely superb in the upper registers. Specially with Infinicaps. Hope I get the chance to do so in the future. |
Hello Laurent I just looked and actually VT-150SE is a stronger amplifier than Ref300. In fact it is stronger than all Reference amps except Ref600 which is as strong as VT-150SE. Energy storage: Ref300 448 joules and VT-150SE 420 joules. Feedback: Ref300 10dB and VT-150SE 15dB. Damping factor: Ref300 have 11 (0,8dB at 16 ohm) and VT-150SE have 16 (0,5dB at 16 ohm). So beacause of the higher feedback VT-150SE have a stiffer output, but I assume the "sence" of Ref300 being more powerful are because of the bigger transformers that transport the power more easily. You better get some more iron in a 60Kg amp compared to a lightweighter like VT-150SE (35 Kg) Ref300 also use less voltage swing over the output tubes compared to the same output from VT-150SE = more linear amplification and less distortion. Thanks for the invitation. I live in Europe too so please send an e-mail to flex2@live.se |
Thanks for the input Lawence_carpio. Haven't heard the Ref5 yet, so your input are very interesting. Please describe more if you can... ...or correct my assumptions if you find them to be wrong. Ref 1 have a bigger bolder soundstage with greater dynamics compared to Ref 5 ??? Ref5 are a bit more lean or slow sounding than Ref1 ??? Ref1 is LESS "musical" than Ref5 ??? Ref5 have a deeper but not as wide/high soundstage than Ref1 ??? Which of them do you think have the highest "truthness" to individual acoustic instruments ? |
Jwm: I don't see why a leaner sounding can't be more musical. IMHO any of the better Conrad Johnson's is more musical than any of the Ref preamps I have owned and at the same time leaner sounding. Remember that Ref One have 12 dB feedback while Ref 5 have no feedback. When adding feedback you mostly get a fuller, wider and cleaner sound, but loose in musicality and soundstage depth. It's a delicate act of balance to get the right mix and the best possible sound from a design. |
Pubul57 Considering that Ref One costed $9000 when released 1995 and Ref 5 costs $12000 when released 14 years later I would say that Ref One is any "cheaper" than Ref 5 if you look at the general price development over the years. But if you look at the price you would need to pay for a used Ref your right. |
Thanks for your comments so far Lawence_carpio. Seems like you have very similar experiences with Ref One. Mine is the lastest version too. Love to hear more about your Ref One adventures and what made you like it... Tmsorosk: Ayre ? Hmmmm... Might need to hear one of those when I get the chance. Mitch4t: Thanks for sharing your experience with ARC products. Have a similar history with ARC myself, but a different result. Ref 2 mk2 and Ref 3 was not my cup of tea. |
Main rig: ARC Ref One ARC VT-150SE (mid and treble) ARC 300.2 (bass) Linn Akurate SACD Exact Power EP15A Shunyata Hydra Powercables from Shunyata and Elrod Interconnects Wireworld Platinum Eclipse, MIT Oracle 2.1 Loudspeakercables MIT MH-850CVT Evo Shotgun and Magnan Signature My own design of loudspeaker (based on Thiel & Partners later cheramic drivers and Eton bass, quite similar to Avalon Isis except for the diamond tweeter) and Infinity IRS Epsilon Vinyl Rega P25 with Ortofon MC-10 Supreme ARC PH5 for RIAA + a prototype of my own design. Personal listening: Sennheiser HD650 and Beyerdynamic DT-880 (600 ohm version) My own design of headphone amplifier with crossfeed. TV-rig ARC LS12 Restek Tensor (excellent solid state poweramp) Mark Levinson No.36 Exact Power EP-15A Interconnects Wireworld Gold Eclipse 5.2 and MIT Magnum M1 Loudspeakercables Kimber 8TC Loudspeakers KEF Reference 107.2 Living room system T+A V-10 T+A D-10 Interconnect Wireworld Gold Eclipse 5.2 Loudspeakercable MIT MH-770 CVT Twin Dynaudio Confidence 5 What about your own system ? |