The Stereophile test results on the apollo (both use the exact same transport and operating system) were excellent for error correction. I never had a problem with a disc skipping on a Saturn or an Apollo. Any player will probably skip with a scratched disc. But there are bugs in the software of Apollo and Saturn players. I had 3 Apollos and a Saturn. I have never used a cd player that does some of the things these new Rega players do. If you play discs from beginning to end and don't change tracks alot, then all you should get are occaisional initialization failures, just open and close lid again. However if you like to sometimes change tracks, it might not go to the right one, or it may lock up, or it may leave the first few seconds of the next track out, also if you press stop it might not. I had instances where the only way to stop the disc was to turn the power off. These errors will be more bothersome to some than others. In my experience every single one of the new Regas that I owned had faults (I had a total of 4 machines). My own feeling is that you should not have to turn the power off to change a disc on a 2600 dollar cd player. I dont bother to have it "fixed" because every machine came back with the same issues. As far as I can tell these bugs are unfixable, or have not been fixed yet. Every machine I sent back was found to be fine by the distributer, to their credit they sent replacements. Only to have te same issues with every replacement. My own experience with the new Regas was that the operational issues were not limited to early production runs of the Apollo. Doug Shroeder, who posted a reply here was also one of the first people to post on the internet about the bugs with an early Apollo. Although I think he likes the sound of the machine alot judging by his review. |
Sorry to misinterpret your post. I have'nt had any problems with drop outs, only sporadic intermittent operational issues. I did ask my dealer about a firmware update and he said there is none. The way he and Rega tell it me and doug Shroeder are among the only people that have experienced problems with the new Rega machines. As I said in my post users who play entire discs may not experience the operational issues, since they are primarily related to track access and stop commands, and failure to initialize- you are the first I have heard of to experience audio drop outs. I dont know if others owners have had that issue I seem to remember alot of strange things with the early Apollos. My first Apollo gave occaisional static on one channel along with the operational issues. Every machine after that was fine audio output wise, but they all had occaisional failure to initialize, failure to stop and errors accessing track- when going from say number 3 to 8, you migh get 10 instead. My experience mirrors doug shroeders exactly. There is a recent review of the Saturn in a UK magazine that said the machine failed to initialize a hybrid disc, which the reviewer found curious. My own opinion is Rega needs to make some official acknowledgement and offer genuine rectification of these issues. Or apparently they think it is no big deal to have to turn the power off to change a disc on a 2600 dollar cd player, funny I dont have to do that on my 10 year old $90 panasonic discman. True the issues are infrequent and intermiittent, but really I expect more at that price level and from a company that supposedly prides itself on producing reliable products. Anybody thinking about buying a Satrun or Apollo should merely consider this in their purchase, given that there seem to be owners who report no issues at all. Could it be that me and doug shroeder just have incredibly bad luck? I'm actually selling my saturn for a number of reasons and told my buyer the issues these machines have. He said he usually plays whole discs so that eliminates most of them. My Saturn never gave an audio drop out. |
I'd like to add that those who have the machines currently and say they operate fine, you may be in for a suprise. My 3rd Apollo worked fine for 6 months before bugging out, and got worse as time went on. I am convinced that the problem is bugs in Regas new operating software. That Rega was unable to supply a properly working machine over a two year period and that Rega and distributers/dealers continue to say "your the only one" or "there's just a few" is a lie. I have owned 3 of their turntables, several of their cd players and one of their amplifiers. The whole experience with the new rega machines has led me to the decision that I personally will never buy another Rega product again. |
Steve, thanks for your response. I'd like to say that indeed you and Allen at Audiowaves provided superior customer service surrounding the issues I had with the new Rega cd players. I am well aware you do not make the machines, merely provide sales support and service and to that end I commend your excellence, and to Allen as well. I have suspected and posted that it is the new operating software for some time now. I would like to state I am not doug shroeder but had the same problems he did. I have used the machine in accordance with all operating instructions and do not have any unconventional lighting system in my house. With the Saturn I never even used the remote control. Here is what happened twice in last 2 months with my Saturn (and about 7 or 8 times total with my 2nd and 3rd Apollo machines). So I had the fault on 3 out of 4 machines. I pressed stop on the front panel button, it did not stop, I pressed stop again, and the disc kept playing. After a few more tries (my experience is if the first stop command does'nt work none of the following ones do). Since The machine still would not stop playing the disc, I opened the lid....the disc kept playing. The only way to get the machine to stop playing was to turn the power off. To me this was the most bothersome of the problems I experienced, but I also thought unreliable operation of the remote was an inconvenience as well as disc initialization failures. You may argue otherwise but I feel you should not have to turn the power off to change a disc on a 2600 dollar cd player. Taken alone each thing would maybe not be enough for me to jump ship, but all the issues taken together were enough for me to seek a cd player elsewhere. I asked Allen to see if there are any firmware updates for the machines (I thought of this because I heard Denon had provided firmware updates for some its DVD players). Allen told me no. At that point I decided to not send my Saturn for service, because I had 3 machines back and then get the same old problems again. I really dont know how you would explain that Doug Shroeder and myself had a total of 9 or 10 machines and none operated correctly. Are you saying our sample is part of only 5% error rate? As Doug says this seems highly improbable. Additionally if you read this thread there are other posters besides that have issues with the new Rega machines. How many Saturn/Apollo users post on forums? I dont know. In retrospect I should have hung onto my Jupiter machine. |
I postulate that the percentage of defective machines is greater than 5% for the following reasons: a) about 40 percent of problems in general simply go unreported (like crimes for example) b) defects are primarily manifested only by users who don't play entire discs, but would appear if remote track access or stop functions were used more frequently c) the number of Apollo/Saturn owners who post on forums is small indeed relative to the number of machines sold- which is in the tens of thousands. This is further borne out by the fact that I had absolute zero problems with my Jupiter and had lots of them with the Saturns and Apollos- this is backed up by a poster above who kept his Planet since it operated more reliably than the Apollo, which he sold. |
Wkass, I think the response offered by djohnson59 is probably the reason why slightly but not seriously scratched cd's drop out or skip on the new Rega machines. In addition to controlling laser focus and accuracy, Regas new operating system sets one of 3 levels of error correction for a disc. What criteria it uses to choose a particular level I don't know, but apparently there are cases where it is inadequete. By contrast other cd machines (including Regas own previous players) use a relatively higher rate of error correction at all times, and hence the discs are playable on those machines. When the machine chooses the lower level of error correction it may also open up the possibility of skipping from speaker vibrations (such as when a disc is played loud) as suggested in the post by the Rega dealer who refers to it as acoustic feedback, which is related to a pick up device (phono cartridge or microphone) feeding back information to the speaker creating a feedback loop. A cd player can not be in a feedback loop, it just skips from the speakers vibrations. I have a concrete floor and my discs are in excellent shape so I never experienced either of these things with my Apollo's or Saturn. Maybe the Apollo tests well for error correction because it chooses the highest correction level for the Pierre Verany test disc. |
Wkass, I agree with your feeling. As you know me and doug shroeder used a total of 9 of these new Rega machines over a period of 18 months or more and all exhibited intermittent operational problems (which does not limit the bugs to just the first batch of Apollos). This is unexplainable. Both of us are fully aware to allow the track 1 dispaly reading indicating initialization is complete before pushing play, both of us are fully aware to allow a desired track to appear in display before switching from one to another. The US Rega distributer responded here and says he is the only one who truely knows how many machines get serviced, returned or exchanged. He states the defect rate was limited to 5% of only the early Apollo machines. He also states that unplugging the machine to "reset" solves the problem. All unplugging the machine does is make it usable the next time you turn it on, it does not remove the software bugs, they are still there and will reappear. It's like saying restarting your computer will fix the bugs in a program. That is why I requested for any firmware/software updates before deciding to sell my Saturn. As stated in the thread, users who play whole discs should not get these infrequent, but bothersome operational issues. For some there will be no problems, others will choose to just live with it, others won't. Again I commend the Rega distributer and my dealer for trying to rectify the problem, really they did all they could, but they do not design and manufacture the machines. However I feel the same way you do. Are me and Doug Shroeder just the unluckiest people in the world, did the Cooler stop by unbeknown to us. I leave that to the discretion of anyone who reads this thread and to consider the posters here and the post by the US Rega distributer. |
Bassdude, I agree a seller should disclose to the buyer. Most but not all of the problems are experienced by users who do not play entire discs. I told my buyer of the intermiittent issues these machines have, he said he plays entire discs, so all he should get are infrequent initialization glitches. I did not become aware of the problems playing slightly marred cd's until after my sale, I myself never had this problem, all my discs played without skipping or dropping out ever. For those that dont need to access tarcks frequntly, all the used ones actually represent a bargain, because I am convinced if you buy a brand new one it will be exactly the same way. Rtilden thanks for weighing in on your experience. It is true cd players in general are not the most solid operaters, but I have never used a machine that does some of the things these new Rega players do. You can take some comfort in the fact that your user experience is not uncommon. I dont jump around all the time with my discs. I had times where after letting it load and initialize, I wanted to play a track other than the first and it would lock up. Other times I do want to go from number 5 to say number 9, and well it doesnt, it either goes to some other song or locks up. These types of things will bother some more than others, to me it is inexcusable in a 2600 dollar cd player and I doubt I am alone in that feeling. |
I dont have any wifi or infrared device of any kind in my house. I dont even have a cell phone. For awhile I sometimes thought the unplugging suggestion made the problem go away, only to always have it return. Please let us know by email or posting if you experience the same malfunction despite having taken the ceiling fan out. |
Darrens, Absolutely there are plenty of people with these machines who report zero problems- as the reply from the Rega distributer may indicate. However I had 3 Apollo machines and a Saturn machine over a nearly 2 year period and every single one exhibited various combinations of the issues above. That is my own personal experience, so I am not jumping to conclusions. It has been suggested by a Rega dealer over on audioasylum that my problems and that of doug shroeder (who had 5 machines and none worked correctly) are related to RFI, and goes on to say that it is essentially just 2 guys that have problems with these machines. That theory does not hold water for me because my 3rd Apollo and my Saturn worked largely without incidnet for several months, and then started bugging out. Additionally doug shroeder had a malfucntion at an entirely different location when he took his machine to his dealer. Further I have knowledge of 3 other users that had errors on more than one Apollo machine. In total my count stands at 20 faulty machines among 8 different users. These errors include all of the known software bug issues on some of the machines, and the drop out/skip problem on others. The drop out issue is probably due to an explanation listed above. The machine sets itself to one of 3 error correction levels during initialization, and there are instances where it chooses a lower level of error correction for slightly scratched/marred discs which proves to be inadequate and causes the audio drop outs, or the "acoustic feedback" skips mentioned by a dealer above. I myself did not have drop outs, but 2 other posters above did. Other than disc initialiaztion failures and the drop out thing, most other problems are related to track access via the remote and the failure to respond to stop function and these will not be experienced by users who play entire discs. Initialization failures are in the range of about one of every 15 or 20 discs. |
Dick, thanks for checking back and posting. The problems are usually occaisional and intermiitent, and hence why Rega says they are unable to duplicate them, so to them there are no problems. Any serviced or replacement machine will eventually exhibit the exact same issues. I'm convinced that they are caused by bugs in the operating software/chipset of Regas new operating system. In my opinion, To really address the issues would require an entire rewrite of the operating software, something they will not invest in presently, I'd say the jury is out on these machines. Apparently it is'nt so easy to replicate the Phillips/Sony "redbook" system which was many, many years in the making (I know because a friend of mines dad used to work for Phillips). |
Dick, My undestanding is that the system was designed by computer/software guys as opposed to audio guys. Rega gave the "redbook" to them and they created the new operating system. So, As you say you'd think they would have the foresight to allow updates since the Apollo was in effect the guinea pig for this new system. However Rega does not feel there is a problem, as the US Rega distributer states. To put things into perspective Denon provided a firmware update because machines did not play "Raging bull" DVD correctly. Keep using your machine with regular store bought redbook cd's and see how it goes. Certain dual discs and hybrids are not redbook compliant and may not work correctly in some machines. CDR's are going to be ify in any machine too. My experience with the Apollo and Saturn bugs relates to playing perfect condition store bought standard redbook cd's- not cdr's, not hybrids or dual discs. |
Doug, It is in the Sam space (stereophile) review of the Saturn and there is also information about it on Regas own website if you click on the review link to "what russ andrews thinks about the saturn". Sony and phillips announced awhile back that they would stop making chipsets for cd players. A british software company thought that people would still be buying cd players and began to develope a new system, using the original Phillips/Sony "Redbook" as a point of reference. Rega entered into a partnership with this as yet unknown company (anonymity was part of Regas partnership agreement). Here's a qoute from the sam space article, Sam consulted directly with Rega founder Roy Gandy for this article. "Some venture capitalits in the UK foresaw that the chipsets would cease to become available, while sales of cd players would continue, so they set up a company with between 20 and 40 computer software engineers, none of them from hi-fi, and fed them the original Sony/Phillips "redbook"." If you read the russ andrews article it basically rehashes the above and mentions that Rega was "to assist with debugging". |
Indeed Rega has made no secret of all this, actually they made a big deal that they were the first ones to use the new system (which will probably eventually appear in other players as well), what they do make a secret of is that there are still bugs in the system. |
shoez23, there has been no response from Rega UK about the bugs these machines exhibit. But there is a response from the US Rega distributer above (Steve Daniels- the sound organization). He says there has been almost no problem with the machines and that faults were limited to 5% of only the very first production run of Apollo machines- not the later production Apollos or Saturns. My count stands at 22 faulty machines among 11 different users (4 of which I used myself over a 2 year period- 3 Apollos and 1 Saturn), of course my knowledge is limited to users who post on forums. There are about 30 users that report no problems. I'd say that is higher than 5%. The problems are failure to access correct track via the remote, failure to respond to stop function on remote or machines panel which requires the power to be turned off to change a disc, initialization failures in the range of 1 out of every 15 or 20 discs, leaving out the first second or two of a track, audio drop outs when playing slightly scratched discs, freeze up of machine when accessing tracks, and freeze up of time and track disply (a time and track number are frozen in display as the disc continues to play through). As I do above I'd like to say that The sound organization and dealers have provided good customer service and replaced machines without quibble. Unfortunately I never had one that worked right. Obviously They do not manufacture the machines, Rega UK does and they have no comment on the issue. There are plenty of users that report no issues but my own experince and that of others indicates that there are bugs in the operating software of the new Rega players. The problems are intermittent, Regas suggested solution is to unplug the machine overnight to let it "reset". My own experience is that the bugs always return after trying the "reset". |
Thanks for your comments Kbarkamian. Maybe there is something to your theory. But it does not explain other stuff. There are a number of other issues these machines have besides the fast foward freezing up. Is failure to initialize a disc or failure to stop static too? I used 4 of the new Rega machines over 2 years and these new Rega players do things that are plain weird on a year round basis, by contrast I never had a single problem (not a one) with the previous Rega players. I'm sticking to bugs in the operating software as the true reason these machines do the things they do. Please Let us know if the unplugging fix works long term. |
Kbarkamian, I was using store bought perfect condition cd's. I do have cdr's but play them on my Denon 2910. Initialization failures were in the range of 1 of every 15 or 20 discs with all 4 machines. I rarely used the fast foward/rewind function. Once in awhile I play my guitar along to certain songs and like to go back to certain parts. That's when I realized to not bother using the foward/back function, it's worthless. The freezeup you describe is fairly typical, the machine locked and no longer responded to any command. However I've had them lock up without using any function (remote or panel). I put a disc in, play a few songs, press stop and it does'nt....have to turn the power off like you did. Another time the display just froze up all on its own (track and time froze as disc kept playing), and then when I press stop, it does'nt. My experience with the unplugging "fix" is that the bugs always return without exception, so let us know if it works for you. Different machines do different things, please inform us of any other quirks you have, but use regular cd's, as cdr's can be prone to problems in any player. Any cd player can do a couple funky things, but this is usually after years of use, the regas are funky out of the box and do things I have never seen any cd player do. |
Well I want to say my Rega Jupiter 2000 has worked perfect for many years and I prefer the sound of it to any cd machine I have ever owned. It was only the Apollo and Saturn I had trouble with, all other Rega gear I have used is fine (turntables, amps, cartridges). In general cd players are not as reliable than other components but clean discs and lens mechanism should ensure performance for several years. Some time has passed since this thread was started by Wackass. Basically I have forgiven the experience I had and remain a Rega user, in fact I now use an all Rega system comprising Elicit amp, Jupiter 2000 cdp, P5/exact table, and RS3 speakers. Widely overlooked here in the US, Rega speakers have long received great accolades over in the UK with which I concur. |
