Attention Scientists, Engineers and Na-s


Isn't it funny how timing works. With all the different discussions on proving this, show me fact on that and the psycho acoustical potential of the other thing an article comes along with the same topics and some REAL potential answers. I received my newest copy of "The Audiophile Voice" Vol.7, Issue1 today and on page 16 is an article written by David Blair and Bill Eisen titled "In The Matter Of Noise". The article focuses on disturbance noise but has some reference to thermal noise, low frequency noise and shot noise, and our ability to measure these noises with the equipment of today. We have measured noise as low as 6x10 to the power of -5, or approximately a few cycles per day. We have also found through laboratory testing that the human brain is stimulated with frequencies from just above 0Hz to just below 50kHz. U.S. Department of Defense documents also show studies of low frequency activity below measurable levels and there various affects.
The article then begins to talk about out of band (hearing) noise and in band noise produced by our electronic equipment and the potential of these noises effecting our sound system. The assumptions are that "disturbance noises rob our systems of dynamics, low-level information, tonal purity and stage depth". These effects are for the most part overlooked and misunderstood by the scientific communities. They say they think that our speakers being hit with "massive quantities of R.F.I. are affected" A very good quote referring to power filters was "Effective noise control imposes no sonic tradeoffs or downside." How often have the discussions here on Audiogon focused on what they are doing? A very interesting comment was that Teflon is capable of carrying 40-Kilovolts static charge, and the industry is touting this as a great insulator for audio signals, that's scarey!
Now I bring this to light because I believe the view of the "Scientists and Engineers" here on Audiogon is so narrow that they are failing to see the exciting challenges in front of them. If all these noises do exist, which they do, and they can be transmitted and received through our systems, isn't possible, just maybe feasible that the insulation of our wires, the casing of our dedicated lines the size and shape of the conductor could, just maybe effect the sound? Isn't it even possible that forces set off by electrical components could be interfering in some so far unmeasured and inaudible way affecting the sound. Do you all test within the full spectrum of 0Hz to 50Khz for every possible situation? Or is it possible, just ever so small of a chance that you are overlooking a whole new science yet unexplored. Doesn't that, even slightly excite your little scientific fossils?
Man if I was younger, healthier and wanted a challenge. This is a career if you'd just climb out from behind you oscilloscopes and spectrum analyzer and see the world is indeed still spinning, and yes, it is 2001. Remember how 30 years ago 2001 was going to be so exciting. What the hell have the Scientist, Engineers and Na-sayers who tote there stuff here on Audiogon done for the advancement of science. Anyone, have any of you really broken through! J.D.
128x128jadem6

Showing 8 responses by stevemj

Jade - It simply is not possible, no chance, none, zero, nada, ziltch, that line cords, power conditioners outlet distributors or cable conditions (there is a different reason for them) have any effect on fidelity. These things have the same effect on sound as whether or not your car is in the garage.

An amplifier's rectifiers brutalize the AC waveform in the process of using it. Amplifiers are a source of AC line distortion, not a victum of it. Here is an analogy. Let's say you have a compressor and a spray gun. To do a nice job of painting you want the air to flow smoothly to the gun from the tank. So, you go over to where the air enters the compressor and set up a little screen so that any wind drafts around the compressor intake will be reduced.

Its actually even worse than this. If the products altered the AC waveform as they claim it wouldn't make any difference, but they don't even do that.
Jade - What are the scientists supposed to "break through" to? I suggest that you replace all your electronics with stuff that was built by non-engineers and also that it uses principles discovered only by non-scientists. This way you can stay home and beat your drum without fear any electronic coloration. And I won't be tempted to respond you your moronic posts because you won't have a computer.
OK, what do you think of this. As you must know, the difference between the sound of musical instruments is mostly in the in the harmonic distortion that they add the fundamental. Varying amounts of energy in the different harmonics give instruments their characteristic sound. Now, since alot of people prefer gear and sources with measurably higher distortion and noise, perhaps the added harmonics are what give different amps what some call a "musical" quality. It just so happens that the kind of distortion tube gear has is mostly in the lower harmonics where it is the most pleasant.
Jade - Sorry if I get a little testy. I have concluded that there is just not enough common ground for believers and non-believers to have useful discussion. Well, actually, I think speakers are an exception to that. Speakers have such enormously high distortion compared to everything else, and almost no specs are provided for them, that we can only sit and listen and believers are certainly as good as anyone at that.

It is the fact that believers refused to allow that psychology is am important factor that makes discussion pointless. Without the willingness to factor this in, it becomes hopeless search for reasons for real differences.

The "amazing" differences people report between line cords, power conditioners, cable conditioners and distribution outlets are absolute proof of the psychology involved. Once one accepts this aspect of the listening phenomenon, then believers and non-believers can argue about things that are at least theoretically possible.
Jade - I would be willing to bet you any amount of money (well, say up to $10,000) that you would be unable to hear the difference in line cords in a true double blind experiment. The reason this psychology business is treacherous is that people REALLY do believe they hear a difference. And it isn't that there is something wrong with anyone, its just the way the mind works.

So, try a test where neither you nor the person scoring the test knows which cord is installed. Make sure there is no possible clue as to which cord is connected. See how you do.
Fpeel - What are some of things that believers think sound better, yet they attribute to psychology?
Vantage - Where are you located? Are you willing to consider a $10,000 bet. I don't want to do this if it isn't worth the trouble. If so, we can seriously consider how to arrange this.
JD - What I see constantly being put forward is called an "argument from ignorance". This kind of argument works like this, since we don't really understand how things work, whatever the arguer is claiming must be true.