Contuzzi:
I've seen that thread on AVS and I'd take that guys opinion with a grain of salt. Very novice listener and even he was bothered by the sierras at first and "learned" to like them after all the AVS users convinced him to essentially.
That's not what I got out of that thread at all. The OP preferred the Sierra's in most of the songs in his speaker comparison, and there were fanboys for both the Sierras and the Focals trying to convince him. I was impressed that this novice brought in some acoustic panels to improve the sound in his room. That was not a novice thing to do. I'm wondering what cougar4u decided to do, because I'm considering the Sierra tower as well and reading that it is being compared to speakers that retail for $4000 is impressive to me. |
One thing about ribbons. The school of thought on them is that they have specific characteristics such as being fussy for placement, and a narrow disbursing pattern.
The Raal ribbon tweeter in the Ascend Sierra speakers is a game changer, and why both Salk and Philharmonic have now also turned to Raal for ribbon tweeters. They are hand made and simply amazing. I'm sure Focal makes a fine speaker as well, but there you are paying retail, or discounted retail instead of buying from the manufacturer and saving upwards of 50%.
Incidentally, I had some well regarded focal speakers in my car. I did not care for Focal's approach whatsoever. Too bright/harsh. I've owned the Sierra 2 which has the Raal ribbon, and I can tell you the highs are very resolving and detailed, but not ever harsh. |
Well if you want to marry a pair of speakers, I guess. The internet sales model is far different than the retail method, and is indeed based on what they cost to build. The retail speaker brand will gin up its qualities and get print media types to "rave" about them so as to "command" a premium price. Hey, its your money, spend as much as you want.
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If you're surprised at this thread, then you must get surprised an awful lot, because EVERY audio forum is chock full of threads asking for owner's impressions of their gear. It's how people develop a short list these days as the internet has changed the game.
And of course you want to audition speakers before deciding, it doesn't matter if they cost $4000 or $40. I'd rather audition speakers with my gear in my room over 30 days before deciding, rather than doing it in a sometimes badly set up sound room in an audio store, with a salesperson who may not know what they're talking about or who is pressuring me to buy now. YMMV. |
Contuzzi, the ID business model is far different from the B&M model. No stores, no salespeople, no marketing to speak of and no ad campaigns. Typically, they add a margin to the cost of their products and sell it in a marketplace that is probably very budget conscious.
And, there is no 'extra money'. If a given price drives a certain amount of sales, Economics 101 tells us that a lower price raises demand, and revenues. We the consumers don't have to pay for B&M stores, marketing campaigns, fancy packaging\excessive bling in the product, nor the markup going from wholesale to retail.
Plus, Ascend Acoustic speakers are Made in the USA, including the cabinets. I'm pretty sure any imported drivers come from Europe, not Asia, and for sure it's assembled in the USA, not some factory in China with disregard to human rights. |
Contuzzi,
1) I am not assuming anything. They don't need to make as much on each pair of speakers because of what I've previously outlined.
2) The difference with Focal is, they have the manufacturer - wholsaler - retailer chain. They cost more because of this, and their marketing/ad costs.
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"They don’t need to make as much" is simply referring to what their costs are. Costs per unit, when one doesn’t have marketing, advertising, and a B&M chain to support, costs per unit are far less. So they don’t have to charge as much to attain a margin of 100%, or whatever they need to cover material and parts costs, salaries, utility bills, and a healthy profit. Typical margin for a company like Focal is probably over 300%. That is, Focal would sell a given pair of speakers to a wholesaler (that cost them 1,000 to manufacture) for probably around 2,000, or 100% margin. The wholesaler would sell to the retail shop at a profit, then the retailer sells to you at a profit, for a total margin of the original cost to Focal of easily 300%.
This is just simple economics, obviously you were not a business major. Don’t worry about it, you’re not the type of person who would understand examples like Emotiva and SVS, and how they have built up their brands, and changed their approach.
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I’m not sure what you’re asking. Emotiva used to charge $899 for the XPA-5 amplifier. Today it’s $1599. Emotiva seems to be experimenting with a hybrid Internet Direct with dealer approach. I really don’t know what the costs are, but rest assured that a dealer is getting a profit from each sale, and so is emotiva.
With a true Internet Direct approach, there is only one level of profit margins, not 2 or 3. |
I believe there is no point in continuing this discussion, perhaps we can at least agree on that.
There are many factors on the Emotiva company, believe whatever makes sense to you. I've been simplifying the discussion so those unfamiliar with business concepts could understand the basic issues.
One reason internet companies do not charge a full retail price on their products is specifically YOUR mind set. Many couldn’t be persuaded to try Ascend or Axiom or Aperion Audio or Hsu Research or Odyssey Audio or Oppo or any other such company. To succeed they have to discount their products to a point where enough are willing to try them out in their homes.
The first such product I ever bought was an Emotiva XPA-3 for around $500. The equivalent amp from Parasound was about 3000. I was willing to save 2500 and possibly get an inferior product. Since then I’ve purchased many pieces from the Oppos of the electronics world.
Some will try, but many like you won’t. Do whatever makes you happy. |
The factory direct companies live or die by their online reputation, they have to make you as happy as they can.
I can only go by my own experience. Paradigm is a loudspeaker company that designed and made their own parts and drivers for decades, and I owned their second from very top of the line speaker, the Signature S6, which cost over 5000. I owned these speakers for 7 years, and ran them first with Emotiva gear, then Parasound. In my time, I've also owned 5 other models from Paradigm, from the Monitor and Performance series.
And I can tell you that you can get equal performance of those $5000 speakers for much less money from Ascend(I've also owned 3 different pairs of Ascend speakers). I compared them side by side and could not believe my ears.
Believe whatever makes you happy, and spend multiple thousands like I did.
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nquery, interesting comparison with Monitor Audio. When my dealer dropped the Paradigm line back around 2005, they went with Monitor Audio.
I've never thought that any speaker brand is a one size fit all proposition. And of course, many differing tastes and preferences. Some want a speaker to add plenty of bass and or have a hot top end. A pair of Tannoys I have push the mid frequencies, and they are nice for some music. But if one wants true accuracy, detail and resolution without coloring the sound, many brands need not apply.
The trick is finding speakers that inspire you, and then getting electronics that compliment them. For accuracy and an ability to recreate the most difficult instruments without getting harsh sounding, Ascend with the Raal tweeter is one option. The fact that they operate outside of the retail system seems to trouble some greatly. |
Pee your pants? Whatever bcgator said, you are over reacting I think. Cougar4u started this thread, and probably regrets it! |
