ARE SUPER EXPENSIVE STREAMERS REALLY WORTH IT

Thank you, everyone. As I had hoped, there have been plenty of thoughtful, knowledgeable contributions from our community and not too much in the way of a pile-on.

Just a quick note to Jerry: Thanks for reading at least some of my topic. Of course, I wouldn’t purchase a component based solely on the I/O, Jerry, but I genuinely wanted to take advantage of the knowledge here and better understand the subject matter.

I’m sure I am a fairly typical purchaser. Like many here, I have a decent budget and a very understanding better half, but I don’t have unlimited funds either. So, I regard these purchases as consequential since music listening and enjoyment are important to me. As I look to add this relatively recent music resource to my system, I need to do some due diligence. I always believed in attempting to do this to the best quality I can afford. These will be substantial and, I hope, long-term investments.

I’m not a luddite; I do have a digital source in my system. But this whole discussion is about how we turn digital into analogue, i.e., music. I would add that a quality vinyl solution will remain a part of the equation for me, at least in the medium term.

I asked about I2S because my left brain needs answers. It’s far from clear what investing a substantial ratio of the streaming savings pot into a streamer, which in my case potentially constrains what I regarded as the more consequential part of this particular chain, the DAC.

If a streamer collects the data packets and establishes they are all there, it feeds this stream of data via I2S. Then surely it deals with the clock signal differently by isolating it and presenting a clean, jitter-free signal for the DAC. I have heard this work with a CD player outputting to a DAC via I2S, and there are audible differences for me.  I appreciate that there isnt a pin confiuration standard as yet but most DAC's with this connection can accomodate this by offering configurable I2S. So why isn’t it discussed as a possible game-changer? And why, when a quality DAC can and often does use separate super quiet regulated power supplies, one for the analogue circuit and another for the digital; heck I have even seen that they often utilize twin “high-end” DAC chips and two “high-end” temperature-regulated clocks?

Am I being unreasonable to suggest, at least to myself, that anything the streamer does regarding jitter/timing is pretty much redundant? As long as the stream contains all the zeros and ones that sum correctly, these amazing modern DACs take total control and will deal with jitter and noise very effectively. Therefore, possibly negating the need for a super expensive streamer beyond the implementation of a decent power supply, a well-thought-out motherboard, and ample processing power, allowing me to spend much more on the DAC.

This whole ethereal rabbit hole of what happens when obtaining data packets from a remote server before handing off the digital stream to analogue conversion is becoming more contentious an area than any part of the more traditional analogue chain.

I have to admit I’m leaning toward the influence of the DAC as more important than the data stream, as it should be pretty much error-free, as is most of the half a zettabyte per day that gets zapped around our world.

Most of what a high-quality DAC does, including the importance of the internal clock functions, is somewhat easier to grasp. So just how important is the data stream being clocked from the streamer, then re-clocked by the DAC before it becomes an actual music waveform? No one has really convincingly explained this.

High-quality DACs seem to equally emphasize the importance of stable power the internal clock functions, but in addition also how the DAC chips present the waveform to the analogue section ready for amplification. So just how important is the data stream being clocked from the streamer, only to be re-clocked by these powerhouse DACs before becoming an actual music waveform? No one has really convincingly explained this to me.

I am already getting from reading the great contributions here, that there are hugely differing experiences being shared.  So, in addition to what I have learned and still learning here, is that I need to and on listening to some streamers and DAC combinations, as well as DAC Streamer units in different price sectors and hopefully narrow a few down to audition in my not low end but certainly not esoteric £50-60k system.

It’s like you never even read my initial response because I thought I provided a pretty clear explanation of what a streamer does and why it’s important.  The digital chain is only as strong as the weakest link, so if you choose to skimp on the streamer and it’s not on the level of your DAC it will be a bottleneck to the DAC’s performance.  Please go re-read my initial response more carefully as it does answer your questions.

Sorry I didn't read your post, I skipped through on my phone last night and must have spun past your contribution. Thank you for commenting. I do have a question though and please bear with me if I am not really getting this. If a decent but not considered high end streamer ouputs via I2S and is connected to an accepted excellent DAC which accepts I2S, is then compared to a top end streamer connected to the same DAC but via USB lets say. Is the outcome a slam dunk to the expensive streamer. I understood that I2S properly implemented all but elliminates the possiblity of timing errors, so if as is being said the whole raison d'etre of high end streamers is to provide a clean signal to the DAC so it doesnt have to work as hard and this results in a better audio signal, I2S should win this contest or?

Yes,  it's the cheap DACs and streamers that have really been pushing I2S.  It's a shame people are basing their choice on a connection with no universal standard 

Ben of Mojo Audio has stated more than once that I2S is not his preferred scheme.  An excerpt from their site

Thanks for the information really usefull observations I was considering DAC's and Streamers that offer the best availble interfaces and having head the difference in a CD player using a fairly short (Not 4") but short Audioquest Carbon I2S I was considering the possiblity of using a very good streamer with an exceptional DAC.  But I appreciate that this may be a "red herring" Still learning and I guess I will just continue to ask dumb questions until I arrive at the right answers

Having chewed my way through and taken on board the many interesting, informed, passionate and sometimes provocatively forthright opinions from within our community, I have been through a weekend of introspection, weighing up what I have learned and asking some questions of myself. I reached a few at the very least tenuous conclusions and knowing that there are many here with far more detailed knowledge and experience I will still risk sharing my thoughts with you all.

My reasoning seems to make sense at least to me but does it align with common practices common to higher-end audio setups?

Instead of following the I2S yellow brick road, I may now focus more on a synergistic combination of attributes approach but since mine is not a limitless budget I still need to find a balance between budget constraints and the relevant talents of the two components. In doing so, I have to be prepared for this particular voyage of exploration to conclude at the same port.

Further Questions & Answers (generated via maybe a still emerging appreciation of this whole new world).

Q: Could the answer to how much I spend on a Streamer vs a DAC be about a combination of one having a femto clock and the other having one or more OCXO clocks?

A: Yes, there could very well be?

Q: Is there an inherently better reason for utilizing femto in a Streamer

A: It seems accepting femto clocks are better at reducing Phase Noise which is more common in streamers as they have more fundamentals in common with a PC than other components in the audio chain. If a streamer has a high-quality clock (like a “femto” clock), it can provide a stable and precise signal to the DAC. This can reduce jitter at the source, however, the DAC still needs to re-clock the incoming signal to ensure accurate digital-to-analogue conversion.

Q: Why OCXO Clocks could be a good choice for DAC’s?

A: Temperature Stability: OCXO clocks provide excellent long-term stability due to their temperature-controlled environment, minimizing frequency drift as well as further reducing jitter, an OCXO clock could help the DAC produce a more detailed and natural sound, with better imaging and soundstage.

Q: Will the DAC Re-clock any incoming data from the streamer?

A: The DAC’s clock/s are crucial for re-clocking the signal it receives. Even if the streamer has a good clock, the DAC needs to ensure the timing is precise during the conversion process.

This means that even if the streamer’s clock is not as good, the DAC can still ensure high-quality audio output.

Q: Could both Clocks Matter?

A: Yes, a good clock (Femto better) in the streamer helps minimize noise & Jitter introduced at the source, potentially affecting the signal before it reaches the DAC.

A high-quality DAC with one or more OCXO clocks will re-clock the incoming data from the streamer, further reducing jitter and ensuring precise timing particularly influencing the digital-to-analogue conversion

Temperature Stability: OCXO clocks provide excellent long-term stability due to their temperature-controlled environment, which can be beneficial for maintaining consistent audio performance.

Temperature Stability: OCXO clocks provide excellent long-term stability due to their temperature-controlled environment, which can be beneficial for maintaining consistent audio performance.

Q: Does System Synergy Count here?

A: The consensus strongly suggests just as most parts of the chain, best performance is often achieved when both the streamer and DAC have high-quality clocks, ensuring minimal noise and jitter throughout the entire signal path, will lead to better audio quality. How large and consequential such improvements are and how they are quantified is not easy; I guess its system and probably subjective listening dependent at this level. I cannot envisage an opportunity to conduct such an in-depth auditioning opportunity. So I will need to narrow down any list by a combination of factors not all listening experience with my system.

If my budget allows, my approach may well be a femto clock in the streamer to handle initial signal processing and an OCXO clock/s in the DAC for final re-clocking, leveraging the strengths of both types of clocks in within their respective environments.

Overriding practical considerations

Budget Allocation: Depending on my budget, I may still need to prioritize spending more on the DAC, as I still maintain no one has debunked its almost paramount importance as more influential for the final audio quality.

However, I will look at streamers very closely and try to invest in a very good streamer with a femto clock, strong Power supply electronics and thoughtful design, because I now recognize it can also make a significant difference in the overall performance.

No offense intended but the length of your reply and it’s style smell of AI, am I correct?

No offence taken Bruce.

I have been overwhelmed by the extent of engagement on the subject of my enquiry. So I used AI as a cross referencing tool as I waded through the depth of knowledge deployed in response.

I am a Sony Trained engineer so my "indoctrination" into the Japanese way and tendency to scrutinize is almost second nature.

I am also a global quality Auditor, so my style of writing can come across in an overly logical fashion or somewhat formal report style but throughout my dialogue here, my deductions and questions generated are very much my own curiosity, as dumb as they might seem to some expert contributors.

Most people have been understanding here and for this kindness, I am very grateful. The advice has helped and tempered my over enthusiasm.

I have now shortlisted some streaming products from Aurender and Lumin, maybe I might add HI FI Rose also. I am still looking at options for DAC’s that maybe a possible synergistic match for these products as well as the rest of my system.

Are you tending toward AI integration more in your daily life?

Thanks for your comments anyway.

Gerald.