Are audiophiles still out of their minds?

Pennsy, there are so many reasonably priced cables to experiment with in your system that will give the sound you’re looking for without having to pay outrageous prices of these overhyped and overmarketed snake oil cables (like the one starting with an N 😏). And most of these reasonably priced cables come with money back guarantee. Sorry to hear you had to spend that much to gain wisdom. Hopefully, others can gain from your experience.

BTW, your posts are entertaining as heck, spelling errors and all. 👍🏻😂

Geoff, how many times have you stuck your foot in your mouth by not paying attention to my words or twisting my words to fit your argument?  Now you're changing the subject cuz you got nothing. Give it up. You're boring me. 

Mapman,

"It just seems sillier when people spend large sums of cash on things to solve a relatively simple problem that might have been solved just as well or maybe even better perhaps for less."

Very well said. This was what I was pointing out in my original post. There's more to be gained, for example, from simple affordable room treatments than any expensive cable can provide.

Geoff, I gave you way too much credit. You’re vaporware. Not much to be gained by responding to your circular baiting , but I know you will continue cuz that’s what you get off on. Prove me wrong. But I know you’ll prove me right by posting more dribble. I will thank you for it when you do.

Watts, we don’t need to hear about your life story here. What’s with you and the psychoanalysis? You’re an engineer by your own admission. So you failed as a psychotherapist in your past life, and I'm sorry for your past failings. But this is not the forum to solve your personal problems.

Inna, why wouldn’t you try a $300 cable? Just because of the price you’re assuming it wouldn’t sound good? IME, that is one of the biggest fallacies in high end. I gave it a try and found cables in this price range competing with cables 10 to 20x the price. These are audio cables, not speakers or amplifiers that require in depth knowledge of electronics and physics, although some cable manufacturers will argue otherwise. It doesn’t take a genius to come up with great sounding cables. But it does take a marketing genius to convince audiophiles to buy mega buck cables - Oh wait, I take that back.

Oblgny,

"We're nuts. Period." 

Thank you.  That's the most honest and succinct answer to my original post.  Have a nice day.

Folkfreak, have you ever tried cables in the $300 to $2000 range instead of $15k to $70k range? Or did you consider cables in this range below what you would consider given your expensive system? You stated cables sound different, which I agree with, and are system dependent, which I also agree with. Wouldn’t you have saved tons by trying out these affordable cables that may sound just as good or even better if you gave them a chance? The problem with many audiophiles who own expensive speakers and electronics is that they seem to be compelled to buy mega expensive cables to justify their expensive gear. They think you have to buy expensive cables because only expensive cables can bring out the best in their gear. At one point, I thought this way, and so I auditioned many of these overhyped cables and compared them affordable cables many rich audiophiles would never consider. Guess what? There’s no consistent correlation between cable price and good sound. Some of these expensive cables sound very high fi that gets your attentention with too much detail, huge diffuse sound stage, etc and in the long run tiring to listen to. And the worse thing you can do is buy expensive cables based on audiomag reviews, but many do without ever comparing them to affordable cables.

BTW, dCS equipment never sounded correct to my ears. No amount of cabling can correct what I consider is inherent flaw.

Folkfreak, don’t be so sensitive. I didn’t lambast the dCS. It’s just not what I call realistic based on my experience as a regular concert attendee of classical and jazz music and as a classical guitar player. I love my Golden Gate DAC, but you will likely hate it because it’s the antithesis of the dCS. But I wouldn’t care if you lambasted the GG because we obviously have different tastes in what music should sound like.

Nordost SPM? Remember the original van den hul D102 IC from the 80s? I think I got you beat.

Getting back to the important subject at hand, you didn’t answer my original question. Did you compare your expensive cables to the cables in the $300-$2000 range? My guess is you have not. I have heard the top of the line offerings from Nordost, Transparent, Audioquest, MIT, etc. While some are very good, just as good or better cables can be found for a lot less depending on your system. A big chunk of the cost of these megabuck cables goes into advertising, but I’m assuming you know this if you’re a seasoned audiophile.

If you were wise with your money, wouldn’t you have given these "lesser" cables from less known manufacturers a chance? I did and saved tens of thousands of dollars over the years.

As for cable dealers working hard for a sale, I can assure you he hit the proverbial jackpot when he sold you those Odins even after losing $900, which btw is his own fault for not paying attention. Some of these cables you’ve tried have some of the highest markups in the industry. He probably made more by selling a pair of Odins than selling many of his speakers or electronics. According to my industry sources, the markup of some of these cables can be as high as 10:1.

If you feel happy with you’re purchase knowing what I’ve told you, then oh well.

Jafant, there are a lot in this range with some starting below $100. And like I said cabling is highly system dependent, and the only way you’ll find out if it’s good for you is to try it out in your system. Some of the manufactures I can recommend are dB Audio Labs (USB cable), Signal Cable (ICs and speaker cables), DH Labs (power cord), Grover Huffman (ICs), Triode Wire labs (power cord), Ridge Street Audio (sorry defunct but you may find used), Kaplan Cable (now Waveform Fidelity), Reality Cable, etc. Don’t let the affordable price fool you. Most of these manufacturers will give you a free in home trial, which is critical. Good luck.

Oops, I’m not up to date pricing on BNC cables for digital gear. My bad. For that my apologies. It would be helpful if you put the pricing in your original comment. After all, this is about pricing of cables. You can’t automatically assume we know the prices of all your cables. I was concentrating more on your other cables, but again it would help if you list what you paid for them. I know some are expensive as hell.

But boy, you’re really reading into my comments for things that weren’t implied. I have my own taste, just as you have yours. If you thought that my opinion on what sounds more realistic to me as being superior to your opinion, then you got some inferiority complex to deal with. For this, I owe no apology.

If you have no issues with 100:1 markup, then good for you. Most of us do because we’re not filthy rich.

So because I like affordable cables I’m looking for an extreme deal? These cables I buy are not discounted, and I pay the retail price because they're affordable.  So I’m cheap scraping at the bottom of the barrel for the best deal? Here is where you’re coming off sounding like a complete douche. I buy based on what sounds good to me within my means. Some are expensive and some aren’t. Some I pay full retail, some I don’t. So if you’re looking down on me because I can’t afford some of the rediculously priced items you can afford, then we all know you’re the kind of audiophile that gives a bad rap to the audiophile community.  

Frankly, I have no issues with those who place "an extreme premium on getting a deal" because that’s the only way some people can afford things that are normally out of there reach. People like you who can afford expensive sports cars, mechanical watches, jewelry for the wife, first edition books, dCS gear, Odin cables have lost touch with people of lesser means. You’re failed trickle down economic theory of "if I’m rich and spend money, the little people will benefit" pretty much says it all. This reminds me why I don’t hang around with the filthy rich.

Watts, you're so weird. You're perseverating on the same issue over and over again. Are you sure you're not suffering from OCD? I'm worried about you.

Facten,

"ask dracule1 a question , what's the difference in making a decision to purchase an expensive (new or used) DAC like the Golden Gate when there are presumably good sounding less expensive DACs, and someone making a decision to purchase expensive vs inexpensive cables?"

Glad you asked, but let me rephrase you're question to be consistent with my original post.  Why spend tens of thousands of dollar on wire when other components in your system like acoustic room treatment, speakers, DACs, turntables, amps make more of a difference in sound and often cost less than wire?  For example, a 10' pair of Nordost Odin 2 speaker wire retails for $46k.  That's close to 3x the cost of the Golden Gate DAC.  And more than 12x  the cost of my acoutic room treatment.  Which do you honestly think makes more of an improvement in your system? IME, the audio wire loses embarrassingly. The GG DAC is hand built, contains components that require in-depth knowledge of engineering, is orders of magnitude more complex in parts and construction, etc. Acoustic room treatment makes the biggest improvement IME.  OTOH, there's no rocket science in audio wire construction (I know high priced cable manufacturers will argue otw. E.g. electrons in our wire travel at the speed of light. 😒) .  Audiophile wire can be made in miles by a machine unless you're boutique one man operation working out of your home.  Most of these high prices wire is copper, not gold or palladium or platinum.  There's nothing about audiophile wire that justifies some of the stratospheric prices asked by many of these cable manufacturers.  

"From the OP’s perspective I could probably advocate the point that most components are seriously overpriced too. As an example, you can get a great if not outstanding sounding acoustic guitar made by a famous Spanish master for, say, $7k-$10k. It takes talent and decades of work to be able to build an instrument like that. What equipment can you get for $10K ? Decent sounding Rowland or Gryphon integrated? Not much. So they are overpriced big time too, correct?"

Being a classical guitarist myself, I really appreciate your comment here. England, France, and Spain all have master luthiers who have devoted their entire adult lives to their craft. Some of these guitars can take months to build and are true works of musical art, yet their prices are still less than most of these overmarketed cables. Intolerable, no? I guess not to the filthy rich audiophiles - my apologies to the filthy rich audiophiles for offending their delicate egos.

Watts, you're the self proclaimed master engineer, but all you do is throw around "decision matrix" and "permutations" to make yourself sound intelligent.  But we all know you have real insecurity issues to deal with. You gotta stop bringing up your childhood, economic status, and your "awesome" job with Mercedes, BMW, and US military.  No one here has posted so much about how great they are. Love the way you look down upon me and attack me, while proclaiming yourself as humble fair minded individual and the all knowing psychoanalyst.  "Hell has no fury over a woman scorned" aptly describes you.  How's that for hilarious?

Inna,

"Dracule1, unless you are a rocket scientist you cannot say if this kind of science is required or not to design or build a great cable. You simply are not qualified to judge it from this angle.
And another point. Some people have enough funds for everything including $70k cables, but I don't think that you do. Nor do I. Yes, wealth distribution in this country is far from fair. I don't like it but I can tolerate it unless it is totally out of control. Can you?"

Goodpoint. I'm not a rocket scientist, but I have physicist friends and colleagues, one of whom works for NASA and another of whom is a die hard audiophile!  When I show some of them, who are not audiophiles, cable prices and cable manufacturer's white sheets, they can't believe the cost and the unsupported dribble.  They go on to shred every voodoo claim by these high priced manufacturers. So can I get some love here 😘? BTW, I was a chemistry major in college, so I do have more than basic understanding of physics and materials science.

If I save up for several years, I could afford $70k cables, but why would I waste my money on them? I would put that into my retirement account.

You don't think $100k for audio wire is totally out of control? I guess we just have very different tolerance levels for the absurd.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

"The OP just appears to enjoy making others feel bad......period. If you corner him with facts which demonstrate the preposterous nature of his claims, he will retaliate with a personal dagger like his endless insults to Geoff, his comments to folkfreak regarding the SQ of his DCS stack or to me regarding my Nordost cables, the merits of which are laughable on their face."

Actually, I like making people feel good, if you’ve read my posts. 😘 As for those who feel bad because of my views on audiophile cables, get over it. It’s just an Audiogon discussion thread.

I like Geoff. He’s just a smartass. I see no harm in him.

Folkfreak is so rich he doesn’t know what to do with his money, by his own admission. He had his say and left because he has better things to do.

Watts,
You on the other hand, are a disturbed individual. You keep stalking me. You give me the creeps, man. 😱😳😮

Inna, ok. I'll call them "wonderfully rich". How's that for political correctness?  I wasn't trying to start a class war, as I wouldn't mind being "wonderfully rich" myself. But I wouldn't spend $10k for cables even if I hit a record Power Ball jackpot.

Oh yes. There are other countries that make excellent classical guitars besides Spain.  If I had the money, I would spend $10k on a classical guitar made by a master luthier. My favorite classical guitarist is Julian Bream, an Englishman, who was trained by the father of modern classical guitar Andre Segovia, a Spaniard.

European cheese? I thought velveeta was the bomb! I'm glad I don't have expensive taste in cheese. I have taste buds of a goat.

asp307,

"Currently there’s a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2’s for sale here asking $14,340 ($35,850 original price.) "
Guess what...if this person is one of those special Nordost dealers and selling it for $14,340, he is still making a healthy profit. If this person bought it for the original list price, you know my opinion on that.

"As much as I’m turned off by people that constantly brag about what they have which to me is a very ’new money’ thing to do, I am equally or possibly even more so turned off by people that state "I don’t have that type of money" or "I can’t afford that." I find it off putting and a bad look."
Ok. Whatever blows your hair back.

"And please...let’s not start talking about what classes we took in high school as a means to somehow qualify our chops..."
Who ever talked about high school classes? From what I can tell, most people have college and post graduate degrees here. Are you saying these science and engineering degrees have absolutely no bearing on what qualifies someone to give there opinions?

"I’m with @wattsperchannel on this...@dracule1 comes off as whiny."
And you’re not? Get real.

whart,

" To me, the real answer to all of this is to do your own evaluations, find the bargains or overlooked pieces of gear on the used market and make your own decisions on what sounds "right" without following the herd. The DIY camp--which I really am not adept at because I lack vital skills--is where a lot of the action is. "

You got that right. Look for overlooked pieces of gear, like vintage SS Japanese gear from the 80's and 70's.  Very affordable and sounds better than some of the most highly touted gear today.  Don't follow the herd and buy the most advertised gear, which is usually the most expensive.  And DIY is probably the best thing an audiophile can do for himself to get some of the best sound with the lowest cost, provided he has the time to learn.  DIY cable is the easiest thing to make and just as good or better than half of the cables costing thousands of dollars.

Me too jl35. But if there are fools who want to part with their money and scammers who prey on fools, so be it...

Hmm..Jmc, seems like you’re the one who can’t except the way some people are. RELAX man. Poor you, vying for my attention with all your posts. You want my attention. I’m giving you some. Happy?

Oh Watts, you still stalking? Creeper.

jl35, I don't think all are but some I do.

"vs someone who buys $10k speakers and slaps on cheap cables without auditioning, simply assuming cables don't matter..."
If you mean lamp cords or rolls of Monster Cable at Best Buy, I agree. 

"Drac’s reference to his friend at Nasa who has unequivocally determined cable’s are scams. Are you to whom he was referring?"

"I was referring to Drac’s reference to his friend at Nasa who has unequivocally determined cable’s are scams. Are you to whom he was referring?"

You're a bit slow, aren’t you Watts? 🙄

BTW, your ability to misinterpret my statements is pure gold. Are you really an engineer?

"My point is of course you can construct absurd cases where some generic wire might win in a shoot out with a superior wire due to some contrived assemblage of variables. But those case can be thrown out. They’re outliers. You cannot put the genie back n the bottle. Not with cables and wire, not with fuses. Simply saying we can’t easily perform an AB test doesn’t actually mean your argument is valid. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. One trusts wire directionality is one of your variables.
Geoff, I wasn’t constructing any cases, absurd or otherwise. And I wasn’t addressing cables or fuses. My point in mentioning all of those variables was to convey the thought that the results provided by expensive in-wall wiring in comparison with Romex are (a)unlikely to have much if any predictability, and (b)are unlikely to have much if any consistency among different systems and installations.

Regards,
-- Al"

Geoff, you really like to troll don't you? Looking for fights where they don't exist. This is your MO.  Every time I've seen you argue with Al, you've come up short handed. 

Asp307, why are you so hurt over the term filthy rich? It doesn’t carry the negative connotation to me as it does to you. It seems only some of those who have more money than what they know what to do with get offended. I would love to be filthy rich and wouldn’t care if someone used that descriptor.

I have described in detail why I don’t think expensive cables are not worth their price. Perhaps you should read my comments again. But I will list them again.

First, the raw materials needed for expensive cables are easily obtained, are cheap in the quantities needed, and are few, namely metal wire, connector, and dielectric. How expensive is copper or even silver wire that goes into an expensive 1 meter of IC or 8’ feet of speaker cable? I hope you don’t start getting into monocrystal wire debate. Cost of most dielectric is almost nothing.

Second, the engineering of expensive audio cables is not sophisticated compared to amplifiers, DACs, speakers, although cable manufacturers will claim a lot of unproven BS. In contrast for example, there are cables used in some components of high energy physics particle colliders (eg, CERN) that do require sophisticated engineering and manufacturing and are probably expensive for a reason.

Third, markup of expensive audio cable is probably the highest in the industry for no good reason. If you can provide a good reason, please let us know.

Fourth, there is no consistent evidence published or otherwise that expensive cables sound better than inexpensive ones, coat hangers excluded (Watts you’re precious.). I with other audiophiles have conducted blinded AB testing, and there has never been consistent preference for expensive cables ($5k+ speaker cables and ICs) over relatively inexpensive ones ($300-$2k). I do find differences in sound among cables, but price has never been the consistent factor.

Fifth, manufacturing of these expensive, highly marketed audio cables is cheap compared to most high end gear. They can be made in miles of quantity by machines. Actually, I think some of the more boutique, one man operations spend more time hand making his wire (hand polishing the wire, making and applying the dielectric by hand, etc).

If you are to claim value is in the eye of the beholder, then I got a $10,000 umbrella stand I can sell you.

So now my turn. What is your reasoning behind justifying the cost of $10k ICs and $50k speaker cables? Have you done blinded AB testing and found consistent evidence that expensive cables sound better than inexpensive cables? I would love to hear your response.

Mitch2,

"To your question,
What is your reasoning behind justifying the cost of $10k ICs and $50k speaker cables?
I would say, why do they have to be justified? While I am happy with my WE wire from ebay, I have no problem with others who believe a $10K pair of interconnects, or a dozen $150 fuses, are necessary for their audio enjoyment."
Well, my question was directed to asp307, but I’m glad you joined our discussion. The reason why I posed the above question is because some have attacked me for suggesting some high end cables have become so absurdly expensive for no good reason. And there are people willing to buy these cables without really even thinking about what goes into making them. And the reasons they give for buying these cables is well...how should I put it...they already drank the kool-aid. I was hoping for more rational reason other than the subjective "it sounds good to me". A hamburger with grilled onions and cheddar cheese sounds good to me, but I’m not going to pay $200 for it no matter how good it is. I guess I have a disdain for getting ripped off.

"It would be interesting if the folks who complain about high-priced cables actually took a close look at what the government does with the money we pay them.....talk about waste and lack of value."
You don't think people are aware of this? I work at an institution that is supported in part by the government and see the waste first hand, besides all the government waste reported in the media. But this is entirely a different matter that doesn’t belong on Audiogon.

"Sure, some inherit their wealth but many others are some of the hardest working people I know and many started with nothing more than an idea, fearlessness and perseverance."
I agree. My criticism was never about these people. My original post had to do with unjustifiably expensive cables and the people who buy them.

"drac, your post below is one of your most thoughtful in this thread."
Well thanks. I’m not exactly sure which exact post you’re referring to because most of my posts are thoughtful when I’m responding to rational people. ;-)

Watts,

"Ya but how about bringing up that "I know a guy" who works at NASA and he agrees with me? Now that pretty much clears up this whole topic.

Seriously though, I completely agree with your point that an "Appeal to Authority" is often a sophomoric tactic employed when the facts aren’t in support of a position; just as poorly designed experiments (DBT’s as an example) serve the same purpose.

That said, I raised my role as a materials scientist not to support a specific scientific claim (as I have made none). Rather, I did so in response to a post made by inna which indicated the OP needed a scientific background to make his claims. I pointed out my credentials to demonstrate my qualifications to engage in a discussion about science regarding the poorly contrived scientific claims of the OP. This is of course a proposition he has shown no desire to pursue for reasons I have mentioned. Namely, I don’t believe this thread is about cables."

Taking the passive aggressive approach? All this verbiage, yet you have contributed nothing except for how great an psychoanalyst engineer you are working on F16s, Mercedes, etc. If you don’t believe this thread is about cables, then why participate. Go start your own audiophile psychobabble thread and have at it. Who here wants to hear your psychobabble over and over again?

That "NASA guy" has real credentials and can be trusted because I know him. I have no idea which community or online college you sprang from.

"BTW, I use 10 gauge Furutech OCC in my walls because I like the way it looks on my oscilloscope."
Hmm, next time I’ll bring my oscilloscope to my audio dealer and if I like the way a cable looks on my oscilloscope, I’ll buy it. Why even listen to it? Precious.

Instead of going off subject, why don't we get back on track.  Earlier I posted a list of why I think megaexpensive cables are not worth their price. I hear nothing but silence from those  who oppose my views. It's irrelevant what people pay for watches, cars, Gulf Stream jets, etc.  That wasn't the subject of my original post.  If you feel justified paying for mega expensive cables because they sound good to you despite my contention there are cheaper alternatives, then you don't have to respond. You've made up your mind so happy listening.  However, if someone can justify the issues I have with expensive cables (listed below), I would sincerely like to hear your views.  No more personal attacks, smart ass remarks, and psychoanalysis from either side. 


First, the raw materials needed for expensive cables are easily obtained, are cheap in the quantities needed, and are only few, namely metal wire, connector, and dielectric. How expensive is copper or even silver wire that goes into an expensive 1 meter of IC or 8’ feet of speaker cable? Cost of most dielectric and shielding is almost nothing.

Second, the engineering of expensive audio cables is not sophisticated compared to amplifiers, DACs, speakers, although cable manufacturers will claim otherwise.  I'm not talking about cables used in some components of high energy physics particle colliders (eg, CERN) that my physicist friends have told me about.  They do require sophisticated engineering and manufacturing and are probably expensive for a reason.

Third, markup of expensive audio cable is probably the highest in the industry for no good reason. If you can provide a good reason, please let us know.

Fourth, there is no consistent evidence published or otherwise that expensive cables sound better than inexpensive ones, coat hangers excluded.  I with other audiophiles have conducted blinded AB testing, and there has never been consistent preference for expensive cables ($5k+ speaker cables and ICs) over relatively inexpensive ones ($300-$2k). I do find differences in sound among cables, but price has never been the consistent factor. If you contend blinded AB testing is flawed, then provide an alternative.

Fifth, manufacturing of these expensive, highly marketed audio cables is cheap compared to most high end gear. As far as I know, there is no cable geometry that a machine can't wind. And cables can be made tens of thousands of feet easily by machines. Actually, I think some of the more boutique, one man operations spend more time hand making his wire (hand polishing the wire, making and applying the dielectric by hand, etc).

I would love to hear your responses.

Watts, are you for real?

"Operators capable of raising capital must set pricing on the products the capital is used to produce at a level that maximizes the net-present-value of all future cash flows generated by that capital (as determined using a discount rate equal to the operator’s cost of capital) which in turn must maximize the rate-of-return on each dollar of the capital raised.

Those who employ capital must make such pricing decisions by assessing the price elasticity for the product in question and the incumbent capital required to meet the demand for any given price point. The cost to produce any particular product is only used to determine the floor for pricing to determine a go-no-go decision on the capital project.

Failure to employ rate-of-return maximizing corporate finance principals will quickly undermine the operator’s ability to raise capital as such capital will alternatively flow to those who understand these concepts.

What you describe harkens back to a Soviet style centrally planned economy where the cost of manufacturing is used to determine pricing. Maybe this is one small part of the disconnect so many have with your approach to things.

Regarding your comment 4, I must confess I oscillate between whether I think you really believe the things you say about cables (and as such simply need enlightenment as a scientific matter) or you understand how ill founded your positions are but nonetheless use them within the nebulas nature of the subject to berate those who’s success you deplore. All things considered, (i.e., your clear venom toward the affluent, juvenile treatment toward anyone who logically challenges you, and the weakness of your positions) I continue to lean toward the latter.

Take the corollary of your position into consideration. In my experience I have generally found the correlation coefficient between intelligence and economic success to be greater the zero. On its face, your position argues that the most successful of the successful have happened upon their economic position in spite of the fact that you claim a correlation coefficient of less than zero. A pretty illogical proposition in my opinion.

I strongly encourage you to spend some time with the brain trust you purport to maintain to understand how inductance and capacitance not only impact current availability but influence bandwidth in analog cables; why skin effect is so critical in speaker cables (why I prefer Nordost btw); etc.etc.etc. The mere existence of snake oil is not justification for dismissal of all sound scientific principals. That behavior wreaks of an agenda.

As I pointed out (and you chose to mock rather than acknowledge) there are 70,000 people in the USA alone who’s time is valued to such a degree that it makes no economic sense for them to sort through the low priced cables to achieve the performance they desire. Such an endeavor would actually be more expensive not less expensive than going to a cable company with sound engineering and paying for their services. I refuse to believe you are incapable of grasping this concept but choose to ignore it because it stands in the way of your purpose here."

--You’re now an economist and political scientist in addition to being an "engineer" and "psychoanalyst". It’s really hard for me to take you seriously at this point. I was hoping you would be elucidating instead of being just weird. At least Geoff makes specific points, although unfounded. You hide behind your words and have added nothing useful. BTW, yes skin effect, capacitance, inductance, and resistance. They're real and measurable and are the bases for all sensibly constructed cables. Again you have added nothing new or elucidating.

Stevecham,

"I too went down the expensive cables/IC rabbit hole for a few years (Synergistic, Tara, Audioquest, Van Den Hul, Harmonic Technologies and several others) and then found Mapleshade and Anti Cables, the latter brand being what I currently enjoy and for the past two years, have felt zero inclination to "improve."

Precisely my point. There are plenty of affordable cables that will compete with and sound better than these over marketed expensive brands. 

Geoff,

"Your negative or unsubstantial results actually don’t match what the majority of audiophiles experience with expensive cables, therefore your contention that expensive cables are not worth the price is unfounded."
--Says you. I know plenty who have had the opposite experience. It's hard not to convince yourself that your mega expensive cables improved the sound of your system after spending so much money on fancy dressed copper wire.  So your contention is unfounded. 

"Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out."
--Not even sure how to even begin on this one.  When did I ever claim blind tests reveal ALL expensive cables are no better than cheap cables? I said there is no correlation. Please look up the definition of correlation if I've confused you.  So anything that goes against your belief is an "outlier"? You're full of yourself.

"Besides the tests you yourself (for some bizarre reason) linked earlier on this thread actually show the opposite - they show that there ARE significant differences among cables as heard by almost ALL listeners in the test."
--When did I ever claim there is no difference in sound among cables?  I have repeatedly stated that I hear differences in cables.  This shows you're blinded by your own biases and not EVEN LISTENING to what I have been saying.  First, I thought you're just a troll.  Now I know you're not even a good troll.

Perhaps you should just take your own advice. "This is just a hobby."  You're losing your cool.

Geoff, I have to shake my head at this one again.

"However, if you wish to use room treatments as the alternative to expensive wires, a word of caution. Room treatments you know, like the tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, the Synergistic Research stuff, the Audio Magic stuff, Shakti Hallographs, SteinMusic Harmonizer, heck, even the ubiquitous Tube Traps ain’t cheap, not by any means. I bet you think room treatment involves simply putting up a couple squares of SONEX."

In my earlier posts, I specifically stated what room treatments I use. They are all GIK Acoustics products, probably the most affordable and effective room treatment I’ve come across. All their products are based on proven acoustic principles and physics. They are nothing like the "tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, the Synergistic Research stuff, the Audio Magic stuff, Shakti Hallographs, SteinMusic Harmonizer". All in all, I’ve spent about $4k on the acoustic treatments, which is tens of thousands less than a pair of Odin speaker cables. I have combination of diffusors and absorbers to tame room resonances, slap echos, comb filtering, etc. It took me several years to fine tune my room after multiple consultations with the proprietor of GIK Acoustics. My listening room has no windows and is double dry wall construction. So no, I don’t think room treatment involves simply puttng up a couple of squares of SONEX. Obviously, you have no idea what room treatment involves. Like all your attacks, it's based on your own imagination.

"dracule1 - why don't you contact the cable manufacturers whose products you find disagreeable & ask them to justify their prices...? Then you can post the response..."

Infection, funny that you ask. I did do that at an audio show. One manufacturer was dumbfounded that I even asked the question and fumbled to give me an answer.  In the end, he said something to the effect of his cables being the Mercedes of cables.  Righhhhhhhhhht.  Others will try to overwhelm you with their proprietary but unproven technology hoping you'll buy into it.

Then, I called a well known cable manucture who makes cables up to about $2000 to $3000. His most expensive power cord is about $900 for 1.5 meters.  I asked him what goes into $15,000 power cord. He is a metallurgist and an engineer. He basically told me he couldn't justify the cost of such power cord based on his knowledge of price of metals, insulators, cost of manufacture, advertising, and distribution.  Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, which I highly doubt because I own several of his power cords and would put them up against any PC, or there is a lot of price gauging in high end. He is not my friend, and I have no loyalty to him. I'm just his customer.

"Well, of course you can find cables that are much more expensive than your $4K room treatment; however, $4K is much more than most audiophiles spend on cables. Besides, your $4K pales in comparison to what better heeled audiophiles spend on room treatments. Ergo, your contention that one can obtain better results for a lot less money (than expensive cables) by employing things like room treatments is patently false."

Geoff, you're not even making sense. My $4k in room treatments has done more to improve the sound of my system than any $40k speaker cable or $10k interconnect I've auditioned.  I need a translator.  Or is this another one of your bad attempts at trolling? If you're claiming some audiophiles spending way more than myself in room treatments is proof that my contention is false, then you're one marble way from frontal lobe dementia.  You don't know much these audiophiles are spending, and you have no clue how much of an improvement the acoustic treatment is having relative to cables, especially given your idea of acoustic treatments is brass bowls, etc. Man, I thought you're smarter than this, but you disappointment me every time.

It's pretty obvious you have very little knowledge of room treatments given what you've sited as room treatments in you past comment. Go to GIK Acoustics site and other sources and educate yourself on scientically validated acoustic room treatment, which is one of the very few things in high end where one can actually CORRELATE  measurements with what we hear.  There's that pesky word you seem to have so much trouble understanding.

Analoglvr

"I love this one by Geoff,

Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out.

Basically if if your test results aren't what I want them to be they are "an outlier" and can be thrown out. Too bad that doesn't work in court🙄
And by the way drac I don't think you should exclude coat hangers from your statement. They probably sound better than some 2k cables. "

One thing I've learned about Geoff is that he is incompetent at trolling. He will repeatedly stick his foot in his mouth, and then pretend like he never said or meant it even though you quote him verbatim. He will try to come off being "cool" posting what he thinks is witty and then get all defensive when someone points out his contradictions.  

I agree there are a few pretty incompetently designed expensive cables that may have trouble competing with coat hangers.  Imagine the controversy if I started the thread this way.  Watts and Geoff would have their pants up to their nipples and challenging me to a dual.

"I never said you did say there’s NO difference between cables. What you keep saying, though, is that there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in sound quality between very expensive cables and inexpensive cables. And you yourself provided evidence to the contrary when you linked the blind test that showed otherwise."

Sigh.  You just don't get it do you? How many times do I have to repeat myself.  CORRELATION, CORRELATION, CORRELATION!!!
You're a horrible troll.  

"In my experience I have generally found the correlation coefficient between intelligence and economic success to be greater the zero."

Watts, do you really talk like this?  Have you ever kissed a girl?

"Drac, If you can’t respect others at least get a little self respect."

Watts, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

"Nobody pays retail. Not in this market. Strawman alert. Example: a dealer pays what, 50-60% of retail. And sells them for whatever he can get, let's say 80-90% of retail. So, no one is paying retail. Gee, do you think the manufacturer knows that everyone wants a deal."

No geoff,  try more like 10-20% of retail for dealers for expensive wires.  Nordost dealers will offer close to 50% off retail and still make a huge profit.  Even at 50% off, they're not worth the price to most audiophiles, like those $10k Nordost jumper cables let alone their $50k speaker cables. Reasonable cable manufactures who sell cables in the range up to around $2k have their dealers pay 50% of retail. 

"You apparently don’t seem to know that going to audio stores is no way to audition cables or anything else for that matter. For one thing they keep changing their equipment so much the system never gets a chance to break in. "

Geoff, you're so precious.  Again you talk like you know something when you really don't.  All cables I audition are in my own setup or in my friends setup that I know well.  It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

@naimfan Hey I say if audiophiles don’t mind getting duped and ripped off by “high end” cable manufacturers, by all means have all the fun until their hearts are content. Revisiting this thread, I’m glad there are some skeptics who realize the absurdity of high end cables.

@ebm Yes, those $10k cables sound great when you whip them against the a concrete wall. The startling dynamics is the best. ;)

@geoffkait 
Ear candle? I’m younger than all you old farts. I’m like a bat and hear beyond 40kHz!