Are 500 hours too many for a used hi-end cartridge?

There is no direct correlation between price and quality when it comes to $1000 or $2000 cartridges. More important is perfect tonearm/cartridge matching, capability of your phono preamp if you're using LOMC and your personal satisfaction with one or another model, they can be low compliance or mid compliance, silver soil or copper soil, different stylus profile and overall different sound presentation (different flavor).  

Before you will buy any LOMC ask your dealer about service, because when the stylus will be worn you will have to replace it with equal diamond, you'd be better if the manufacturer can replace old cartridge with new one for special price (many manufacturers can do that), they have special program for upgrade, customer support via their official dealers only. 

Art-9 from your wish list is probably best bang for the buck when you're looking for high resolution NEW low output MC with decent stylus profile. You can also look for Dynavector and Shelter cartridges. 

Pertaining to my situation of being a “tight budget audiophile” (if there is such a thing): If one has an inexpensive turntable with the stock tonearm — in my case a Denon DP-300F with an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge — does it make sense to put a more expensive, higher quality cartridge on that tonearm?

You can simply use better Ortofon stylus with your cartridge, you will have to replace stylus anyway so you can try better one on the same cartridge.

Modern cartridge like 2M Red is not better than most of the Vintage MM/MI cartridges you could use. For example an old inexpensive Ortofon M20FL Super with FineLine stylus is better than 2M Red and many others.

@chakster, I didn’t know I could fit a better stylus on the Red. How is that listed? Do I simply search for a replacement stylus for that cartridge and choose from among those listed?

@bob540

Blue and Silver styli are direct replacement for Red and recommended by Ortofon.

If you want to experiment you could also try much better profiles like Bronze (Nude FineLine) and Black (Nude Shibata), read more. Those are not recommended by Ortofon for Red, but if you will look at the specs and will read advanced users comments online you will find out that they may be compatible too ?

@cakids You don’t need a local vendor, you need the AT’s distributor support so you can give your cartridge (when it’s worn) to the distributor of the Audio-Technica and he can ship it back to Japan. Audio-Technica do not repair cartridges, they do not re-tip cartridges, you will get a brand new cartridges with their exchange program (for about 60% of retail cost), only if you have valid serial number and if it was purchased from official AT dealer/distributor in your region. Don’t buy grey market samples, they will never service them.

Forget about re-tippers, this is not the same.

Stay with Audio-Technica to get full support from their distributor, this is much better, believe me.

When one ART9 is worn they will give you another if you send yours back, new cartridge with new suspension is much better than third party re-tip. Or maybe you could even upgrade to ART-1000 one day, if they have upgrade program. Only official AT distributor can help you with it. 

I will make one remark here:

Some people just don’t understand that some vintage cartridges from the legendary cartridge designers can be purchased NOS ( NEW OLD STOCK) - never used! Even if they are made in the 70/80/90’s and very rare today. A lot of cartridges are in private collections still unused!

Some great vintage cartridges can be purchased even FACTORY SEALED in the box.

Some cartridges are as new, but opened and tested to avoid any doubt about suspension condition or anything that can be degraded in time, therefore they are tested. And that’s god we have honest dealers and private enthusiasts. I bought many units like that and i’m more than happy. Some people have too many cartridges and do not use them much, it can be a unit with 50 hrs on it or even less.

A lot of exotic vintage replacement styli can be purchased NOS/NIB (still sealed). And this is the only way to upgrade your vintage cartridge body with amazing NOS original stylus, often with exotic materials that simply not available new (like beryllium or hollow pipe boron).

Everyone who’s been buying a used cartridges learned something and people are not idiots to buy MC cartridges in bad condition like "used tooth brush".

Apparently you don’t have to put a cartridge in your mounth ?

And finally i hope people are not afraid to buy vintage records, those great original pressings, this is crème de la crème of analog, not your re-issues. And again, those vintage recorded can be found MINT- or SEALED or simply in Excellent condition. I buy a lot of used records!



P.S. Any new high-end cartridge will be considered USED when it’s been opened and tested. Official dealers often sells such items as "DEMO" even with full warranty on them. This is a great opportunity to buy with 30-40% discount some very nice and often expensive cartridge from legit distributor with full support. Such demo cartridges have been used by distributor (importer) to demonstrate how good it is and i believe even used it must be a great cartridge (if you believe in burn-in then you don’t have to suffer because it’s already burned-in). SoraSound often offering demo cartridges after all of them inspected and cleaned by the manufacturer (ZYX). This is only one example, but i know for sure how it works.

It will be fair enough to say that you never know the actual usage time in hours if it wasn't counted by the user himself every time he put the needle on the record.

If you will watch certain sellers you will find out that each used cartridge they are selling claimed to be 200 hrs (but in many cases they are second owners and have no idea about actual usage time). Some sellers just love the number 200 and always use it to indicate hrs of use :) 

I bought many vintage cartridges, some NOS, some used, i'm looking for perfect condition and i want to know who is the owner and how many cartridges he's using. If someone like myself have over 30 cartridges then the actual hrs of use will be very low for each one. But if someone using just one cartridge for everyday listening then i will probably never buy it used. 

To insure yourself try to avoid used cartridges with Conical and Elliptical stylus tip (about 300-600 hrs), the life span of those diamond profiles is very short compared to advanced profiles like LineContact, MicroLine, MicroRidge, F.Gyger, VdH, SAS .... those diamonds can be used for 2000-3000 hrs. 

In general i would say 600 for something like Elliptical and 1200 for LineContact, something close to 2000 hrs for MicroRidge and related. 

Just read this article 

I will add short quote from that article, after stated numbers for each profile you'd better inspect it, it does not mean they are worn, but as you can read there are some amount of degradation according to this research from SAS (see below): 

Wear, Tear and Life

So we know that the more extreme line contacts reduce wear.... but what is the difference?

Apparently according to Jico (manufacturer of the highly regarded SAS stylus), the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its specified level of distortion at 15kHz is as follows:

• Spherical / Conical     - 150hrs
• Elliptical                       - 250hrs
• Shibata/Line contact - 400hrs
• SAS/MicroRidge         - 500hrs

This is not to say that at 500 hrs a SAS stylus is "worn out" - but at that stage the wear has reached the point where distortion at 15kHz surpasses the level specified by Jico for a new stylus. (Which I believe is 3%).

Some manufacturers have traditionally defined a stylus as being "worn out" when it starts to damage the record... in these terms the figures provided by Jico can at least be doubled, and in some cases quadrupled.

Summary

In pure sonic terms on pristine vinyl a top notch elliptical can do as well as all but the very best Line Contact / Shibata styli, but will ultimately be surpassed by the better MicroLine styli.

However in terms of reduced wear on both stylus and records - the entry point is the Line contact / Shibata category.

In terms of playing back worn vinyl line contact stylus types also have an advantage in that they can contact "virgin" unworn vinyl.

Narrower side radius = improved tracking and reduced high frequency distortion.

Dave, if an LP can be destroyed from one play then all those 30-40 y.o. vintage LPs must be unlistenable, but they are better than new reissues.  

Here's the question, is your record collection that valuable to you that you will risk the next record, or the next, if the stylus is  considerably worn and the result is a gradual destruction of your groove wall due to a 500+ hour stylus?

@cleeds Dave's statement is questionable because many audiogon users claimed they're fine with cartridges with 500hrs on it even if the profile is conical, they do believe "it is well polished".  

I'm fine with used vintage records purchased not from audiophiles, but from the record dealers and private collectors (if the condition is strong VG+ or better). Still better than 99% of the reissues.  

@daveyf @cleeds

Haha, everyone on this forum aware that i hate conical styli (and never use them myself), but i just said what other people often posted about it here on audiogon.

I must say i do not believe that stylus with 500 hrs on it can destroy any LP with simple play at correct VTF. This is not a gramophone needle, so common ...

I’m currently buying James Brown records made in the 70’s from the original mastertape in JAPAN by Polydor K.K. in SAL74 System Sound Revolution series. This is by far the best ever pressing of James Brown and nothing can beat it, reissues are very bad. Everything on Polydor K.K. is better than US original Polydor pressing. It was a huge label. But Japanese knew how to make records in the 70’s better. This is just one example of the superior pressing from the mid 70's. 

I was thinking why do they call it SAL74 ?
SAL74 is cutting amp for Neumann Lathe, anyone can comment on it ?

@cleeds i am not happy to buy used cartridges with 500 hrs on them, i prefer NOS vintage cartridges or opened and tested NOS samples (this is the best) with something like 100 hrs max, from audiophiles (not from amateurs). 

But used records from 99% of the dealers most likely played with average cartridges for decades and if the condition is nice (fair grading) it's not a problem. 

I do not belong to the group of elitist audiophiles who comparing vinyl to digital and for this reason can accept only overpriced audiophile pressing re-issues with very limited choice of music on this format. 

I want normal records, originals, made for everyone in analog era, not today for audiophiles on re-issues that cost more than MINT originals 

that's cool