ARC LS1, LS2, LS3 , or LS7, which to buy?

I have great respect for Guido on this site, but my experience with the LS2 was opposite to his comments here. It's going to take a lot more than a special tube from Jupiter to bring the LS2 into greatness....or even musical enjoyment for me. When I heard the LS3, it did not fare any better.

Once ARC started its trend into the analytical zone with the introduction of the SP-11, it only got progressively worse with the SP-15, LS1, then LS2 and LS3. Only with the introduction of the LS5 did that magical ARC sound of the SP-10 and before return.

Interestingly enough, the LS7 has a little bit of this classic ARC sound but with more of a budget-based system in mind. This would easily get my vote. And perhaps with some DIY efforts to upgrade to the latest Dynamicaps, which are $10-20 each, you might take this unit to a most exciting level.

Forget about the 'B' suffixes on older balanced ARC line stages. The LS5 was the first unit to be truly balanced. The LS2B and LS3B had XLR connections but these units went through additional circuit stages to do the conversions to/from balanced. I never understood the benefits of this as such extra stages can only be a detriment to the signal.

John

Marty - If you're considering a unit with a phono stage, that changes many things. I understand your concern over the older units, but the LS2/LS3/LS7 are all 10+ years old so these do not guarantee much over the units from the 80s.

It comes down to the kind of sound you seek. If you like the rich and full tube sound that ARC was so famous for back in the 80s, the SP-8 or SP-6 would be my choice. But these will only handle MM cartridges. The SP-9 I believe handles higher output (1mv+) MC's which alone could be a deciding factor. And the SP-9 moves away from the olden days tube sound. The SP-9 is more tonally coherent whereas the SP-8 favors the middle 6-7 octaves.

Of all these models, I would jump on an SP-8. But like the SP-10, this has become somewhat of a collector's item; they are not seen often. And when they are available, they are in the $800-1000 range. This would be another unit where changing a handful of passive components could take this to another level of performance. After what I have heard dynamicap updates do to newer models, these could help to resolve the SP-8's frequency extreme weaknesses and not affect its awesome portrayal of space. None of the other ARC units here compete with the SP-8 in this regard.

If you are considering units with a phono stage, I would also look into the CJ PV5 and PV7 as well as the solid state CJ Motif MC8 and more expensive MC7 models. Interesting that one of each of these is for sale now. Quite amazing how the MC7 has maintained its value....but it was a very highly regarded piece.

One other unit that gets a lot of praise is the Audible Illusions Modulus 3 but I found this not to be competitive to the others here in terms of dimensionality. And it did poorly at the frequency extremes so I never knew the attraction here. It always comes down to what reference point we have and for me it was the SP-10 for 8 years and the LS5 for another 7 years.

It is quite amazing the value of some of these older models. Some may be 10-20 years old, but with a small investment in a handful of updated parts, they can be transformed. I have become a huge fan of modifying gear rather than constantly chasing the new piece.

One thing you can consider is to try and get a good deal on one or maybe two models here. Do a shootout and keep the one that locks in for you and sell the other for what you paid for it. It can be a pain, but this is a strategy that has worked for me many times.

John

Hi Marty - I think we all have a more clear view into your budget....looks like the $500-700 range? The ARC pieces in this range are at two extremes: warmth and dimensional but lacking detail that I sense you are after, and the other end which is very analytical and flat. You know the CJ sound of this same time period and that has not worked. What about some of the older Classe or McCormack models? These units were consistently rated as a sound somewhat in the middle. And I have to believe many are in your price range.
John

The issue of "accuracy" comes in many ways. If we are talking about tonality, tonal coherency, and such, I would agree that the LS2 is more tonally coherent than the SP8 and SP-10 line stages. I owned the SP-10 and realized how compromised its line stage was 10 years later when I went on a quest to upgrade this.

If we investigate other sonic attributes to determine accuracy, the LS2 is so far away from accurate it is not even funny. Listen to a piano, saxaphone, even human voice with the LS2 and take notice of how quickly tones terminate in space. This is not accurate nor natural at all. Notes with the LS2 occupy little to no space; the presentation is very one-dimensional. It only takes me one trip upstairs to hit a piano key and to know a piano does not sound like this.

As much as I wanted the LS2 to work for me, it was such a huge disappointment. Staying with the SP-10, with all of its tonality colorations and such, was easy as it at least conveyed the dimensionality of the performance that the LS2 failed miserably. Fortunately the LS5 came alone and retained the SP-10's strengths and brought on a huge refinement in tonal coherency, frequency extreme coverage, lower noise and thus greater resolution over the SP-10.

We all tend to speak in our own absolute terms. But our comments are relative to what we have owned or heard elsewhere. Had I not owned the SP-10 for many years, and had also not been so impressed with the LS5 vs. LS2 audition at the ARC dealer, the LS2 may have survived less scrutiny. But I also heard the magic in the MFA and CJ preamps and line stages; I knew how flawed the LS2 truly was.

Concerning some comments above, the LS2 uses one tube, not two. The LS1 and LS2 are hybrid designs, the LS3 is all solid state and the LS7 is all tubed.

I have no experience with the ML models as mentioned by Greg, but I did hear the ML38s directly against the LS5, and the ML sound was way way way too analytical for me. The Klyne was much more to my liking and was much less than the ML. The Krell KRC at the time was as dreadful as the ML38s.

For me, a component's tonal coherency only has relevance once it passes through the dimensionality, harmonic structure and decays in a believeable manner. And unfortunately, it is darn tough to find such a product in Marty's price range. The "modify" route would be the way to go here. Marty: you have a tough job ahead of you.

John

Frap - My comments on the LS2 are directly in comparison to the LS5. After I sold the SP-10 in the Spring of 1995, I went on a quest to find a line stage to match with the ARC PH2 phono stage I had just bought. And I was sure the LS2 would be THAT model. Afterall, Stereophile had given it the coveted ClassA rating. Unfortunately as I came to learn, such ratings had little meaning compared to back in the 80s when JGH ran the magazine.

Interestingly enough, another ClassA rated line stage that I also wanted to hear so much was the SonicFrontiers SFL-2. Had anyone told me I would not end up with one of these I would have told them that was impossible.

I drove to the SF dealer and borrowed one for the weekend. Oh yes, I had tonal coherency and extension with the SF but gone was the magic of the aged SP-10. I was so unprepared for the disappointment. And ARC had convinced me that the PH2 was their best phono stage to date so I held off any judgement here as CD playback did not fare much better with the SF.

Back went the SF and then over to the ARC dealer. With checkbook in hand, I was all set to drop the LS2 into my car. But of course, I had to hear it first and learn about it from the salesman. He had LS2 and the LS5 on another shelf both warmed up when I got there.

We started with the LS2 and everything was there except the involvement. I guess I had been spoiled all too long with the SP-10. And my thoughts of ever getting that magic again were quickly dwindling. The salesman knew my disappointment. But he said he had one more shot to throw at me....the LS5.

I had read the LS5 review from 1994 but it was really out of my budget at $5k for the MK I and $5500 for the new MK II. But he had a MK I demo for $2600 as he got the MK II that week so my timing was so lucky. It only took a dozen seconds with the LS5 and man oh man, there was the SP-10 with a ton of refinements. It was sooooooooo incredible.
Of course I went with the LS5 and then later with various upgrades to the III which I finally sold in late 2002.

And when I got the LS5 home, this along with the PH2 was so far beyond the SP-10's phono playback. I was a happy camper for many many years with this pair.

That the LS2 and LS3 remainded ClassA rated and the Counterpoint 5000 only ClassB rated was so ridiculous after hearing the LS5 and the Counterpoint which were both in a totally different league than the LS2 and LS3.

My comparisons to the LS2 were the SP-10 and LS5. I did not care how it fared to the other ARC models as they never did anything for me each and everytime I heard them against the SP-10.

As for using a CDP straight into an amp, so very few such players have as good a volume control and circuit to drive an amp like so many good line stages. Even the very good Audio Aero Capitole CDP with a volume control greatly benefitted in a friend's system when we tried my BAT 31SE and Aesthetix Callisto Sig line stages. Both of these brought on greater dynamic contrasts, tonal coherency and dimensionality with only a very tiny loss in detail; you had to listen hard to notice the latter. And much of this can easily be due to the extra IC which I have learned much about lately.

Guido - As stated above, the LS2 sessions were with current models in 1995 so this was a MK II and it was a LS2B as the dealer was driving the huge and phenomenol balanced Gryphon amp.

I have not heard the Ref3 but my gut feeling is that it is more into the analytical/neutral zone than the SP-10, LS5 and Ref2 MK I. So perhaps the Ref3 and LS2 have a similar sonic palette? If so, I will stay with the Callisto. But I still would like to try the Ref3 here. Once I get things settled down here, I will work with JD (A'gon jadem6) and w can try this in our two systems. Stay tuned.

John

Frap - You nailed it with the rollercoaster effect on ARC's house sound changing from product generation to generation. This too never made any sense as I would have expected to hear refinements from one product to its successor. You had to skip over a few subsequent models to finally get a refined taste of the great past.

I think the use of the 12BH7 tubes was due to a concern for the availability of 6922 tubes. But the huge supply of Sovteks to quickly come relieved this. And the LS5 MK I to II resulted in the use of 10 of these instead of a mix of 12BH7 and 6922. But it did not matter - the LS5 I or II was so phenomenol that how any reviewer could have comdemned and praised the other ARC models made no sense.

I had stocked up a lot of 6DJ8 and 6922 tubes from the SP-10 days so I used these in place of the tubes that the LS5 came with. And now that I know even more how poorly the Sovtek tubes can sound compared to the Teles and Mullards, just imagine how the LS5 might sound fully loaded with Telefunken. WOW! Much of that edgyness on the top would very likely be gone.

I have since learned to try a lot of different tubes in a product before I dismiss it. With 6H30-based products, there's not much you can do here.

Concerning the issue of only being able to use balanced sources with the LS5, I used a single-ended CDP with the LS5 for a few years with great results. Just a simple adaptor with the "-" phase input grounded meant I was only using half the circuit for this source, but it sounded excellent. There was no need to use a bandaid converter box and its associated IC to run such a source. And unfortunately reviewers used these boxes when they evaluated the LS5 with single-ended sources. That was unfortunate .... especially with the mediocre quality of most ICs back at that time.

In hindsight, had I known then what I know now, I would have kept the SP-10 and used it straight into the LS5 from the SP-10's tape out jacks. Someone good with a soldering iron could replace all the caps in this, retube it with the great tubes still available, and drive a state of the art line stage. Maybe with the LS5 II's 30db gain, this could be a killer combination for someone with a <1mv cartridge. And the support for two TT's would be mighty cool.

John