I wouldn't mind running it constantly, but that won't solve the underlying problem the cause of which I don't know. I don't dare mess with the electronics as my ignorance would do more harm than good.
Corrosion death? Say it ain't so. |
Thanks for the responses everyone. I mustered up the courage to open up the bearing well (with Lewm's help--thanks) and there doesn't seem to be anything obviously out of place. No gunk to speak of. However, the shaft that the spindle sits atop has wear to it and that may be the problem--but there's no fixing that, I think.
The brake piston had a bunch of gunk on it. Cleaned that off and adjusted the brake (which was dragging against the spindle--I could hear a swooshing sound as the spindle turned).
Put it all back together and...same damned apocalyptic sound as before (minus the swooshing :). The sound is not quite like gears grinding as I suggested earlier but rather an electronic buzzing like morse code. Hopefully it's not the motor itself.
I live about 30 minutes east of downtown LA. But I'm willing to drive, so it doesn't matter really where the shop is. Even as far as San Diego would be fine since my folks live down there and I could just visit them. I hope there's a west coast version of Bill Thalmann, otherwise I'll just send it to him. |
I found a guy near me who says he can fix my TT (not Brooks Berdan). When I described the problem to him over the phone he seemed to know exactly what was wrong. We'll see whether his confidence is warranted. Evidently, he can machine TT parts as well, so perhaps I can get him to make me a suitable tonearm pod. Meet all my TT needs at once!
Lewm: I see the distinction you're making and have read the arguments pro/con for plinths, but am not familiar with the arguments pro/con for coupling tonearms to bearing. It would be great if you could rehearse some of those for me.
The left most foot of my TT sits on the left edge of the platform it rests on. If the TT moved position even slightly the whole thing would have either fallen over by now or else be off the edge. Neither has happened. TT walking is not really a serious problem I think--at least with the Mk II. |
Thanks Pryso, I'll call Brooks Berdan tomorrow. I've also emailed Bill Thalmann.
Lewm: nothing is loose and there's no wobble that I can detect. When the spindle housing is lifted off the motor, there is a shaft that is revealed. The top of that shaft (which comes into contact with the bottom of the spindle housing) is worn. It's not smooth and there's uneven wear. I don't know whether that it is to blame for any of the symptoms. This was a studio TT so it doesn't surprise me that there's some wear. What does surprise me is that the brake looks brand new (maybe they rarely used it?).
What puzzles me is why the buzzing noise and speed issues go away after running the motor for a bit. I'm happy that it does, of course, since it would be useless to me otherwise.
And I've noticed another symptom just now: when the buzzing reaches its peak level, the entire TT vibrates (I have no plinth; the motor rests on 3 Audio Technica feet). |
Dear Lewm: if you look at the site rwwear linked to, and open up the second pic down on the left, you'll see what I was trying to describe. The spindle goes into the hole and the piece of metal above the hole is what is worn on my TT.
The vibration I notice today is definitely not a result of being plinthless. It doesn't go away seconds after start up, but rather remains as long as the dreaded buzzing noise remains. That is, for minutes after starting the motor for the first time. If I play records for hours after that the buzzing more or less goes away and so does the errant vibration. You are right though that being plinthless causes a very brief little shake right at each start up, but that's not what I'm referring to.
You've seen, I'm sure, the thread on the 'nude' Victor TT. I'm trying to see whether I like the Technics nude. So far no complaints. The Audio Technica feet are excellent, and serves to restrain and isolate the TT. Even with the errant vibration, the TT hasn't actually moved its location. And during play, I can drum on the platform the TT rests on without sonic penalty. I might try fabricating a plinth later but I see no reason to right now. The set up is ugly as sin, especially my makeshift armboard (which sits atop 4 Herbie's tenderfoots), but sounds delightful. Now if I had a MkIII, as you say, the motor on that is much more powerful and probably requires a plinth. |
As I said, my TT was used for broadcast. Those guys drilled a tonearm hole right through the Technics metal top. When I first got the TT, I mounted their tonearm into that hole. The spindle to pivot distance was perfect but I could not get the correct height so that VTA was always way too high. Either they didn't care or else had a very low hanging cart. So, having no plinth, I had to fabricate a separate board to hold the tonearm. Obviously, there's no point in comparing the two set ups, since the former was so compromised.
And, to be clear, I'm not saying plinthless is better. It just sounds so good that I don't feel the need currently to spend money on fabricating a plinth. This is fortuitous since I'll have a hefty repair bill coming my way, I'm sure.
Would it sound better with a plinth? I hope so, since that way I can get better sound without buying a different TT. But, as Ct0517 said, tonearm flexibility is a strong consideration in favor of going without. I'm new to vinyl and want to be able to play around with different arms in the future.
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Thanks, Lewm. I emailed Bill about costs for replacing all caps in power supply. I'll do that even if Mirko fixes my current problem. Are there electronic parts in the TT itself that need to be overhauled as well? I dread having to pack and ship the entire TT. I should really call Brooks Berdan.
I had Mirko make me the motor clamp just in case I ever have to ship it. But still...
Yeah, he showed me some idler wheels he had lying around. Titanium he said, if I recall correctly. From the looks of his eBay store, it seems like he can machine just about any part for those idler drives. Tempts me into getting one. |
Sounds like your tonearm is secured to the chassis, not free-standing. No, it is independent of the chassis. I drilled a hole in some plyboard I had laying around and mounted the tonearm on it. I then screwed that piece onto more boards to give the whole thing some weight. The boards sit on 4 Herbie's tenderfoots. This is obviously a temporary solution since the boards are not heavy enough to resist inadvertent bumps--which then messes with geometry. Halcro's solution of machining 25lb tonearm rests would be ideal but too rich for my blood. |
My experience supports the proposition that a nude TT can sound excellent. I can't make comparative judgments because I've never had a plinth.
Chris: your set up is so cool. What's that black piece over the Start/stop button?
Henry: your thread and monumental efforts motivated me; otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered listening to the Technics nude and went to fabricate a plinth straightaway. I also followed your lead on the Signet cart/AT 155lc stylus combo. I haven't had a chance to use it much but you're right about the impressive soundstage. |
I visited the guy who will try to fix my TT. His name is Mirko Djorkevik and he has a shop in Huntington Beach, CA. He listened to the noise emanating from my TT motor and says it's the shaft that the spindle sits on. It's the same thing I said, earlier in this thread, was worn when I opened it up a couple of days ago. Since he arrived at that judgment independently of my mentioning anything, I feel we may have hit upon the actual cause. We'll see in a couple of days after he opens the thing up and closely examines it.
Mirko is a great guy and I think he primarily restores Thorens and Garrard TTs. He has an eBay store (user name: sq38s) that sells newly machined parts for those. You can contact him through ebay or if anyone wants his phone #, PM me and I'll be happy to give it to you. It is good for me that he has those skills, since when I opened the Technics up and saw the wear on the top of the shaft, I judged that there's no way to fix it but to replace it with a new one. Hopefully, it's possible. I'm also having him machine me a tonearm pod and some new counterweights for my tonearm. No problem, he says.
At any rate, I'll update this thread when I see how things turn out. Fingers crossed. |
Bill's quote was on the higher end of your prediction range, Lewm. He'll need the entire turntable. I'm not saying it's not a fair price--I'm confident it is--but, yikes, this is as much as I paid for the TT, including tonearm. Gotta go sell something now. Ideally, you want the only motion in the system to be the motion of the stylus in the groove. Any other relative movement downstream from the stylus can either obscure detail or create spurious signals that the preamp will reproduce and amplify faithfully. I think I understand that, but I don't understand why a coupled unit gets one there but not an uncoupled one. If one can suitably isolate an independent tonearm pod, then what's the problem? And even stronger, wouldn't such a set up be better in that respect since it would more completely isolate the tonearm from any potential errant vibrations caused by the motor. I think Ct0517 made this point above. |
Just to finish the story that this thread started with, I can say with confidence that Bill Thalmann in VA can fix your sp10 should it require it. I was at the point of giving up, after 4 months of fruitless waiting, but decided to take Lewm's advice (which I should have done in the first place) and sent it to VA. Even he had a false start initially (this tt is incredibly complicated) but managed to figure it out. Turns out it was two problems: a noisy power line and bad strobe light circuit. Happily, it is quiet as a mouse now and runs like a dream.
Apocalypse averted. |
...not to mention you will know you are listening to the SP10 the way it ought to be heard. There is a lot to be said for that. Now all I have to do is get my wife to share this perspective. She was already rolling her eyes at my bringing it to Mirko when the TT, in her words, sounded perfectly fine. Of course, she is right that it did sound perfectly fine--except when it didn't. This is way out on the end of arguing the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin... I'm a philosopher by training, Lewm, so I rather like this type of argumentation :). But I can put a stethoscope on the braced plywood shelf and hear traffic going by. Really? Wow. Glad I don't live in NYC anymore. That's the first time I've ever said that. Thanks, gentlemen, for offering a better picture of what's at stake. Ct0517: but your set up is NOT coupled in the sense that Lewm and Pryso are talking about, right? If it is, then I'm really confused. |
And second, given the critical importance of proper alignment of the stylus tip relative to the record groove, I cannot understand why someone would mount their arm independently from their table, thus giving up the mechanical integrity that a coupled mounting provides. On a plinthless sp10 what's the other option? My sp10 has a tonearm hole drilled right through the right hand corner of the steel frame, but that just doesn't work because then the tonearm is too high up. Plus when mounted independently, if the tonearm pod is heavy enough there shouldn't be a problem with alignment. See pics of Ct0517's set up: I conjecture that his tonearm is not moving anywhere. I've read Lewm's argument (see above) defending coupling. I have no understanding of physics or turntable design, so can't really assess it. Can someone who can say some words about it to help out novices like myself? Perhaps we should start another thread, since those who might be interested this question probably won't look on this one? |
