I'm excited and optimistic as well. My nanotech drivers are out for delivery now, though I'm out of town and won't be able to install them till Sunday night. |
Morgan,
Are your Franks long gone? I imagine those would be dreamy with Def 3s... |
Germanboxers,
Which AS were you using? I used an S-30 with Soul Superflys and disagree strongly on the "tone density" thing.
That was the area to my ears atma was weakest. Transparency, resolution, low bass extension--I'll concede those things. |
I didn't miss that--I just assumed Zu speakers were a given as part of a system as this is a Zu thread.
Thanks for clarifying, I can appreciate those observations. Interestingly, I'm using a Melody KT88 integrated myself these days which I like, but it is cleaner, more linear tube then the 300B, imo.
Enjoy your pairing! There is nothing wrong with Atma-sphere. :) |
Germanboxer,
Not at all. I just didn't want to come off as if I was insulting your amps. They're very good, some of the best sound I'd heard with my Zus technically. They didn't click for me emotionally, but I respect the hell out of them and am not surprised they're winners on the new Definitions.
When Glory referred to MM he was referring to a MacMini, a small all in one computer made by apple that a lot of guys use as music servers. He replaced it with a Lampizator transport which I had the pleasure of spending a week with a week ago. Its a damn fine piece! Its an EXTENSIVELY modified Squeezebox Duet with tube power supply and tubed SPDIF out which is quite unique... I'm working on a little something with a digi-lampi kit (tube SPDIF out) myself at the moment. |
Can anyone comment on the level of difficulty in setting up the Def 4 speakers? I was a Soul Superfly owner and lover and when positioned just right, they were pretty exceptional in my shared living room. As my needs for that room evolved (along with furniture layout) I had an extremely difficult time coaxing the potential from them and ultimately gave up trying, intending to re-visit Zu when I sell my condo and have a larger space.
I'm still in the same room, but the temptation of trying the Def 4s is strong... Any insight? |
Could someone clarify:
Is the MK3 an actual speaker for sale or is it JUST an upgrade path for owners of prior defs? If it is a standalone speaker they build and ship for $7500, doesn't that kinda kill resale of prior Definitions as well as call into question the current price structure? |
This thread may already be hopelessly derailed, but I just wanted to share that I took advantage of the Def 4 excitement to secure a steal on a pair of Definition 2s which I intend to upgrade with the nanotec drivers like Glory's pair.
I don't expect it will be as good as the Def 3/4 speakers, but I'm quite excited to pick it up this weekend and am happy to be returning to the Zu family. |
I had cosmic carbon Superflys and now piano black Def 2s. The Cosmic isn't bad, like everything it comes down to taste. I really like the contrast of the silver hardware on the glossy black finish--looks classy to me... Classier then the room they're sitting in now, but will be worthy of displaying when I move. |
A question for the Def 2 owners who moved to Def 3/4--did you guys notice a change in performance for low level listening for the better with the newer speakers?
I love these Def 2s, but I feel they like a little volume to really fill out. I'll be getting the nanotech drivers later this month and 'm curious if thats another likely improvement. Speakers are on the opposite wall of the master bedroom and my wife is usually in bed by 10, while I like to stay up and listen late into the night... |
Roscoe,
I had been deliberately quiet with my impressions, but now that my old speakers are sold I'll say the Def 2s with the old drivers (pre 2010 HO) are phenomenal! Ditching my Von Schweikerts and coming back to team Zu is one of the best things I've done in this hobby. There isn't a single area I don't prefer the Zu's performance in and in most areas I prefer it by a significant margin.
I talked to Gerrit last week and he expects my nanotech drivers to ship on or around the 24th. I also plan on finalizing my order with Hugh, who just joined this thread, for a Melody AN211 to drive these beasts. After that I plan to lay low for a while and get a handle on what I'm hearing.
I'm pretty sure when the dust settles most (if not all) of my rig will be in "complete" mode and the nervosa urges will subside. |
Spirit,
It is not that they're poor, but they sound better with more gain. As Phil notes I have the early drivers with the pointy phase cones in my Def 2s--can't wait for the nanos I ordered to come in. Gerrit told me it would be towards the end of this month.
Phil,
Great to read! I do recall your analysis as to the aliveness of the earlier models vs. my 'darker' definitions, but I didn't recall it in the context of low level listening. Very cool that it will further improve things for those late night hours when i don't want to go to bed, but do want my family to remain sleeping.
Morgan,
Awesome to read. I had the same issues you did with my Superflys--when placement wasn't locked in perfectly the top end could present kinda hot and fatiguing and everywhere else didn't really fill in as it should. I do think this was a result of the FRD and its finickyiness to placement in our prior models as that is a memory now and the Defs are very easy to make sound good (though I need to spend time getting the most from them).
Are you still using the AN211 with them? I should have mine ordered next week. |
Welp... I returned from out of town this evening and my nanotech drivers were waiting for me. Like a good addict, I went to work swapping the original def 2 drivers out with these things and am pleased to report the job was completed with no major casualties...
First impressions of the new drivers is that they resolve a lot more information. There is so much more detail to music without coming off analytical, but rather more delicate. Tonality seems great and strings are just great and, while stage is a bit constricted/compressed I think with burn in these drivers will be exceptional in my system.
Can't wait to hear things mature/develop. |
The installation is pretty simple, but it is real work. You take out the 8 screws, remove the silver trim and carefully pull the driver out. Theres an adhesive tape near the supertweeter so go slow until it gives way. I ripped too hard in one place and tore my finish right off--fortunately the blemish is covered by the speaker/trim otherwise I'd be pretty upset with myself.
After that you put on new tape where the old was, re-attach the crimped on taps onto the drivers in the same positions as where they were on the oldies and button her back up.
You'll hear the promise of the new drivers immediately, but they won't be as engaging and will sound kinda constrained. At least that is the case in my system. I can hear things shaking lose after 12 hours of playing Isotek burn in tones though. |
Thanks, Morgan.
They were sounding pretty good this morning after another 8 hours of Isotek tones looped overnight as I slept.
I think they've improved enough at this point that I can return my old drivers to Zu without worry to retrieve my deposit on them. |
It is the one on the Music Direct link with 3 tracks. I just leave that disc looping whenever possible to help speed up burn in. I don't know if it really works quicker then regular burn in, but its definitely not slower... |
What exactly is the purpose of the new Druid V when the Soul Supreme supposedly incorporates the same nanotech drivers along with the Radian super tweeter? What would the difference be? Internal bracing/rigidity and the wiring? |
I did not. I already had definition 2 speakers in the first place, and this is the same tweeter/cap the def 3 employs to my understanding.
I'm not a hundred percent sold on the driver swap yet to he honest. I hear the technical improvements but I've lost my system synergy I was just establishing with my new to me def 2s and am hoping I didn't make a mistake jumping the gun and returning my drivers.
I've been speaking to Phil a good bit behind the scenes and I'm optimistic a couple tube changes can rest my synergy... accordingly I have some 211b tubes on their way... until then, I'm slightly nervous. |
Morgan,
Looking at the tube compliment of your amps I see 274Bs are acceptable. Buy a simple pair of Shuguang 274B rectis online--you can get them for $10 each if you shop around, and see if that brings you exactly what you're looking for. I'm blown away by what that cheap recti is doing in my AN211 as is a buddy of mine with them in his Tubeguru F2a monoblocks. |
Phil was right again. I got some new power tubes (Shuguang 211-B very limited edition) for my 211 SET and things are sounding fantastic without any real burn in time on them.
These nanotech drivers really leverage the difference between digital and analog as well. My Kuzma is kicking some Metrum Octave tail tonight! |
Spirit,
The balance and presentation of the Def 2 and Def 4 drivers are night and day. The Def 2 is darker, less resolved (and less exposing) richer (I think so) and far more laid back. The Def 4 on the other hand is open, extremely revealing, super transparant and a lot more lively.
The stock 211 tubes I had were harsh, unsophisticated and had a good bit of glare to them. Changing them for the 211Bs the horrible glare (which the Def 4 drivers ruthlessly laid bare) and adding dimensionality, beauty, body and tone made a HUGE difference.
Phil will probably speak for himself, but he told me he had a similar experience with 845A vs. 845B tubes in going from Def 1.5s to 2s to 4s.
I have some GE 211s which are supposed to arrive tomorrow, will be interesting comparing them, though I'll likely have to change my driver tubes. |
Morgan,
I have the generic shuguangs, but after further discussing the tubes with 213cobra, it appears the "Preferred Series 274B" that tubestore sells for $30 have a stronger vacuum and may be 'better.'
If it were me I would drop $20 on a generic pair immediately and if I liked what I heard, keep them as a backup and get the better ones when I got around to it. |
Just because our speakers are very efficient doesn't mean they can't benefit in some ways from additional power. I used to really enjoy running my Soul Superflys with a Redgum RGi120 ENR integrated (Sean Casey is actually borrowing it now) which probably pumped over 155wpc into them.
I also heard a Cherry amp putting 700wpc into a pair of Superflys and was quite surprised by the pairing. The scale and effortlessness of the smaller speakers was remarkable. |
"Initially this appeared to be at the expense of tonal weight, but on further analysis I just wasn't used to the massive speed of these drivers. The old drivers in the 2s sound earthbound on reflection."
I had the same concerns at first with the nanotech drivers, but as I grew more acclimated and juggled a few tubes to compensate for the new signature, I arrived at the same conclusion as you. The weight and body is there--the speed and nimbleness is just initially misleading. |
Phil or anyone else,
Is it a big deal if I put the drivers in the wrong place with my Nanotechs?
I installed a matched pair in each speaker rather than matching the top and bottom drivers. I didn't realize this was wrong until I read the instructions that are on the upgrade kit section of the webpage (instructions didn't come with drivers).
Should I bother pulling two out and swapping them or is it no biggie? |
Alright... I swapped 'em.
The amp is warming up now... I guess I'll see how things sound when my son conks off to bed and I can turn on some tunes. |
Well, I made the change and I think I perceive a difference. Seems like the stage is a bit wider and more open with images being a little better defined... maybe I'm imagining it, but I feel like I'm usually a little more emotionally stirred. |
Cool to hear I'm not alone on the image focusing. I did some listening last night, but it was pretty passive while I read.
Things do seem a bit more dialed in though and I think I can attribute the lack of pull from immediately after the change to a combination of my general mood at the time and things needing to settle again after being disturbed. |
Keith,
I'm kind of glad to read this as I ended up backing out of an Almarro 318 at the last minute, and have wondered at times what that synergy could have been with my upgraded Def 2s.
You got new Franks, Morgan? Awesome! Wish I were on your coast to hear that rig of yours.
It seems like you're liking that Metrum as well... very cool. |
No, they do well at normal listening levels as well. I too am in a condo, though Im itching for a single family home with a purpose built room, and most of my listening takes place at sane levels.
A few people have commented in this thread how the definitions come to life at lower volumes... do a little skimming, especially through 213cobras posts. |
Glad to read of the luck you've had, Spirit. My system is consistently enjoyable, but I'm not sure its always preferable to my Def 2s before I installed the nanotech drivers.
I'm admittedly poor with setup and that is likely the issue as I believe my supporting equipment to be quite good and up to par.
Any Long Island Zu experts out there want to lend a hand in fine tuning? |
That would be incredible, Phil! Hopefully by the time that comes together I'll be out of my condo and in a larger home with a semi-designated listening space, but either way I suspect the knowledge I'd acquire would be very valuable.
Thanks for that generous offer. |
Spirit,
You can do better then Atmasphere IMO. I mated it to my Superflys which were a more favorable 16ohm, and despite wonderful transparency and great bass they were pretty lean and analytical.
Follow Phil's suggestions and go big big bottle SET. There are great options on the used market that will be much better then the atma. |
Dave,
Did you have your Def 2s on those Sistrums as well? I'm intrigued by what you have to say about them.
In the past I've noticed different footers could really shift tonal balance of the components placed on top of them, did you notice this at all or were they 'neutral' in their effect, so to speak?
Fred |
Don't judge the Druids by AXPONA... Zu is capable of a lot more and the Soul Supreme (pretty much the exact same speaker) sounded infinitely better 2 weeks later at T.H.E. SHOW in Newport Beach. |
