Actually I meant the Audion Black Shadow pow as one of the alternatives to my Hovland Radia, and alongside the ASR as final upgrade choice to feed the Def 4s |
Well Charles, ASR, Audion and Dave Berning all have distributors in the UK, and pre/pow combinations are all in the £10000-15000 range.
Firstly, purchase of the Def 4s and new tt/arm have pretty much emptied my bank account, and a little upturn in the World economy would be SO good for business.
Because the Hovland pre/pow has served me so well, amp upgrade is something I'm curious about, but is not a priority right now.
So as a fan of ASR, is it not overkill on the power front mated with the ultra high eff Def 4s? |
Hi Glory, don't believe in conditioning, convinced it can suck the dynamics out of a system (poss. restiction to power amp peak current). Much more convinced by balanced power, aiming for a 9kV unit with enough headroom for any amp out there.
The consensus on ASR seems to be that it is the champ on transparency, soundstaging and dynamics, but leaves many listeners with a cool, detached presentation.
Will be fascinated to investigate this further. 213Cobra no doubt will feel SET amps fill in the emotional quotient in presentation. |
So Phil, I know you have some familiarity with my Hovland HP200 tube pre and Radia 125W/ch pow amps. They've served me well with my Def2s, and softness in sound occasionally perceived I've come to the conclusion is more to do with the 2s' tweeter reticence.
So with the Def4s more complete Radian tweeter and better performing FRDs, do you believe this softness will recede, to be replaced by a more dynamic sound thru higher frequencies and in fact do you still believe there will be good synergy between the 4s and my Hovlands?
I know you have very opinionated views on amp choice and really value your input.
Btw, I hear my Def4s are almost ready at the Zu factory... |
Glory, still awaiting elaboration on your leading comment about Def 4s stock footers. What should I be thinking about? Stillpoints? Equarack footers? Wave Kinetics footers etc? |
Glory, I have ordered the Def 4s with their stock footers. Problem? Your suggestions? They will be situated on Symposium Acoustics Isis platforms that have worked so well with my Def 2s. |
I'm really not sure why this amp-Zu Def 4s synergy argument is generating quite so much heat. It's great to see such heartfelt opinions, but there must be a fair amount of latitude in choosing the amp that works best with the Def 4s in any given room.
I have to say that moving away from belt drive tt/pivoted arm, to direct rim drive/linear tracking means I'll never go back, but I'd never say my way would suit everyone. Similarly, those who've progressed from SS to tubes, or vice versa surely wouldn't claim their way was the only way?
Surely a spkr with as much flexibility in being driven (100dB+ eff) is really going to allow a whole extra range of tube amps esp. SETs to work with it, and similarly it's lack of crossover surely will get the best out of a range of SS choices.
It so happens in my case I stumbled across a really holistic tube pre/SS pow combination in the Hovland HP200/Radia, and I can't wait to hear how it struts it's stuff with the Def 4s. It would seriously have to be found wanting for me to consider another round of costly upgrading.
Really happy with new tt/arm, have got ideas for upgrading current carts/phono, cd great, amps fine, new speakers...looking fwd! |
Phil, your comments continue to reassure me, since contrary to correct procedure, I've gone ahead and ordered the Def4s without having auditioned them first. I've been generally so impressed with the 2s over the last 5-6 years, that the promise of major performance improvements while maintaining all that's already so great about the Zu house sound, with yours and others uniformly positive comments makes me feel I haven't taken a major risk.
My new rim drive tt/linear tracking arm combo is checking out nicely, pretty happy with my cd, and my amps have never let me down (emphasised by your take that the 2s have contributed to lack of bite, not the Hovlands).
My remaining upgrades are possible change in cartridge direction to Soundsmith Straingauge, or keeping Zu 103/Transfiguration Orpheus, and updating phono stage, and then major look at racks/uprated balanced power.
I'm positive that the Def4s are going to give me a really fresh perspective on sound quality, and finally direct me to being happy with overall sound and end in sight for 15+ years of upgradeitis! |
Fellow A'goners, audio really doesn't merit this amount of hot temperedness. Worlwide economic mismanagement yes, Third World poverty yes, global warming yes, but differences in opinions in audio NO!
The problem is that cool disageements on the merits or otherwise of a piece of equipment, which if made face to face wouldn't raise anyone's blood pressure, if put down in text form only, seems to get misinterpreted as a personal attack on one's deeply held convictions.
So shouldn't we all take a step back, and realise everyone holds their views with true conviction, and realise that we can all agree to disagree. Otherwise we'd all have the same expectations from audio replay and all buy the same equipment.
And in the grand scheme of things, Zu, ASR, Audion etc. are pretty small players in a pretty small marketplace, surely we can have a small slice of happiness from different approaches to nirvana. Ie these companies all produce excellent near state of the art gear and deserve to survive.
Just my 2 cents' worth. |
Guys, is it possible to bring this discussion back to the subject of this thread? Namely the Def4s.
How intuitive are the 5 way controls on the backs of the speakers? Is it fairly easy to find the best settings, set and forget? Or do they lend themselves to endless tweaking?
I can imagine this might be the case since setting one parameter might be altered by the setting of the second etc etc. |
Matt, you've really cheered me up today. Your post has filled me confidence that the one area I felt the Def2s were lacking compared to other top end speakers has been addressed, ie restricted top end extension/transparency and resultant muted dynamic snap.
My new tt is performing really well, but is highlighting softness in the 2s. I know now that the 4s when they arrive will fill in gaps in this part of the spectrum.
Also like Matt, my bank account is pretty much exhausted by this purchase, so experimenting with amps is out for a while. It's good to know this really isn't going to be essential, the 4s being so complete as a package.
Roll on their arrival! |
I am in a fair amount of agreement with Agear re power and room issues being essential to get a good sound, after all it is the foundation (power) and enviroment (room acoustics) that the gear is constrained by.
After some expensive forays into power conditioning, I've gone for cheap industrial balanced power and it's transformed my system esp. in the area of dynamics. I'm hoping that when funds permit I'll optimise this with a pro studio 8kV! balanced system to totally isolate the system from nasties.
Unfortunately I'm not able to create a dedicated room, so my improvement to acoustics/enviroment has been to install a SpatialComputer Black Hole anti wave bass attenuator. In my room at least this has smoothed out peaky standing waves and bass nodes esp at 27.1Hz leading to a much flatter in room response. Depending on bass integration of the Def4s in my room, my listening space's cubic volume of 8000 cubic feet suggests poss installing a couple more.
Both these solutions have been so effective that it was a tight call whether I would actrually finally make the upgrade to the Def4s. |
Charles, you can add Hovland gear to the list of that prove that the Zu's are amp friendly. My HP200 tube pre and Radia ss pow have a great synergy with the 2s and I am more confident by the day this will be the case with the 4s.
I'm of the opinion that this overheated discussion of what makes and doesn't make the perfect amp for the Zu's is a little redundant. |
Well, my Def 4s have arrived in the UK, and are going to be the subject of a professional review before I get my hands on them.
Like the majority of people listening in real world environments, it's just not possible for me to do extensive room treatments let alone a dedicated space.
I reiterate again the significant improvements my bass attenuator (one cubic foot subwoofer type box) and industrial balanced power unit have made to my sound. I really can't go down the road of anything else since there is furniture, book/record shelves, ornaments etc to consider. I would urge other A'goners to look at subtle solutions such as mine before splashing major cash and construction on more radical solutions; indeed on another audio forum board, the SpatialComputer Black Hole attenuator when tested handily outperformed passive bass traps. With my new superbly performing record player, and the Def 4s which should integrate even better into my space, I feel I don't need to investigate any further. |
Hey, hope this thread isn't losing priority because Def 4 owners are bored with them? Hopefully it's because you're all glued to your seats listening to them!
So I'm due to have mine installed by early Sep after they've gone out for professional review.
Interestingly, I've got my tt sounding really sweet. While still in the belt drive fold I always felt sound thru the Def2s was lagging behind the example set my my digital. Now my direct rim drive tt/air bearing linear arm is overtaking digital again and the 2s are struggling to perform of their best.
All you happy Def4 owners out there, tell me more how I'm going to be bowled over in the next couple of months. |
Phil, before about 2007, I really felt analogue was far in advance of digital. At the time I was running my Michell Orbe/SME V/Transfiguration Temper Supreme tt front end, and Marantz SA1 cd/sacd, into ProAc spkrs. My tt was warm and tonal, the cd thin and sterile. But even at that time I was aware of euphonic colouration from my tt, that even though v. attractive, definitely meant my tt was not truthfully neutral.
Then in 2007 I replaced cd with EMM Labs CDSA SE, and spkrs with Zu Definitions Mk 2. Suddenly my preferences changed 180 degrees: I so preferred to listen to digital, which had a natural analogue warmth, and my tt became a source of frustration as artificial warmth became highlighted by the Zus-still v.enjoyable, but I knew a change was needed.
Then 3 months ago I installed the Trans Fi Audio direct rim drive Salvation tt with it's Terminator T3Pro air bearing linear tracking arm. OMG! Real precision and neutrality demonstrated by digital was now present in spades on the new tt, with all the tonal warmth and transparency which is a hallmark of great analogue.
I just feel that the tt performance envelope esp in treble transparency is challenging the Def2s and the 4s will be a perfect match.
Btw, i have a separate thread recounting my experiences with the new tt in the Analog Forum entitled 'Trans Fi Audio Salvation Direct Rim Drive Turntable'. |
Phil, your analysis is a very clear explanation of what I think is going on. It's quite a surreal experience to have all the positives of digital (stable timing and consequent lack of time "smear", image stability) with all the advantages of analogue that even the best cd replay can't approach (tonal density, soundstage transparency, microdynamics etc) in record replay for the v. first time.
Your detailed comments on the Def4s are really giving me confidence that cd, tt and spkrs will be performing as of their best, esp. the idea that all the drivers will be of a greater holistic match providing a greater dynamic seamlessness to the sound produced. |
Phil, short of a lottery win I'm never going to be a Zu Dominance spkrs owner, but since you've heard them, can you relay further impressions?
A few things concern me about their design: firstly the baffle is v. wide, surely there may be diffraction effects esp. since surfaces are flat and not curved? Secondly, even though I know 90%+ of the output into the treble comes from the FRDs and 3 of these should be v. positive, are there not beaming effects from having separated tweeters above and below these pointing towards the listener?
Since the Def 4 seems to have cracked off axis listening, won't this positive aspect be negated in the Dominance, by creating more of a hotspot type listening experience, one of the things I hate about a lot of high end spkrs (Magico, Martin Logan come to mind)? |
Well from your description Phil, one to look fwd to. Despite it's hefty price tag, a relative bargain in the high end wrt models like Magico, Wilson, Rockport, YG. It's in that big bucks league at a third of the entry ticket.
You feel that the Def4s, despite not scaling the absolute lofty heights of the Dominance, doesn't give too much away in performance terms comparison I hope? |
Phil, thanks for your thoughts on that. I have enough justification to make spending the cash on the Def4s without running to a bill 3x + their cost to consider the Dominances!
My guess with Sean, is that they might be the ultimate testing board to refine ideas for spkrs like the Def4s they're likely to sell many more of.
Anyhow, within 4-6 weeks I'll be providing a home for a new pair of Def4s, can I just take this moment to thank you for your really informed, enthusiastic comments on the 4s. It is primarily these positive descriptions (and those of others eg GSM) of the quality differences between the 4s and 2s which gave me so much confidence to make the upgrade without prior audition. In effect Sean should be thanking you too, lol! |
Glory, sorry if I've misinterpreted your comments, it seemed to be a question with your pre decided conclusion in the same paragraph. I'm sure we'd all agree on a lot.
I'm really hoping the UK review will be positive, the reviewer certainly likes Def2s.
It's so hard to get people to consider spkrs outside the mainstream (ProAc, B&W, Tannoy etc.) that if my contribution to a positive result for Zu entails, I'll be v. glad.
Sean and the ZuCrew are some of audio's good guys.
Btw, over in the Great Britain, we just are so proud of what TeamGB have achieved. Thanks for your kind words! |
Gentlemen, some v. good news. I am to take delivery of my Def4s later this month, they are currently in the hands of a reviewer which will hopefully lead to a positive professional review.
I'm actually suprised there have been no other formal reviews, bar comments of the sound at various shows.
Re the Dominance; I live in a converted loft, listening space 22' x 27' x 13', spkrs 10' apart, 12' from listening position, free space behind, close on 8000 cubic feet listening volume. The acoustic is v. live and can support bass pretty far down (esp. with the help of SpatialComputer Black Hole bass node correction). In other words, my room could certainly support these uber spkrs.
I do believe that their aluminium standard finish is too much for any enviroment, but speciality finish in black anodised to incl. driver rings and base would allow them to fit in much more easily.
There are plenty of high end spkrs as, or more, imposing eg Magico Q7, Rockport Arrakis, Wilson Alexandria, Kharma Grand Exquisite, Evolution Acoustics MM3 and 7.
For obvious reasons $50000 is a bit of a stretch, heightened by the fact that, unlike the Def4s, there is no onboard sub amp, so the cost of this plus bass filter management would have to be found.
So, a lottery win day one purchase, and an interesting parallel dimension alternative to the Def4s, but I think I'm going to be PRETTY content when my new babies arrive in a few weeks! |
Just a thought on finish; I didn't go for piano black gloss or true black matte, but Cosmic Carbon. Such a different choice. It's never looked appealing in photos, but on a swatch VERY nice.
Any Zu-philes out there familiar with it in the flesh please tell me I made a good choice.
Anyone checking out uber spkr high end prices? Now we've got the Tidal Agoria at 65000 Euros, and that's not even a special edition!
Thank God for Sean and the Zu Crew for keeping things real, and enabling a high end sound to be had for an amount very respectable in comparison. |
Gopher, actually I'm quite smitten by your Cosmic Carbon Superflys. I really wanted something a little more unique than the ubiquitous black, but also wanted to stay colour neutral. I think I'm going to be happy with how they look, and sound. |
Hi Gopher, actually one of the big selling points of the Def2s when I bought them in 2007 was their coherence at low levels. This I believe is a big function of the high sensitivity and lack of crossover so less energy sucked out of the presentation.
In a major way this was a pivotal reason to buy them, to be able to enjoy my music more intimately between 10pm and midnight.
It's a shame if you haven't had this in your experience.
Phil, can you inform us about low level listening, thank you. |
Phil, that's great news. Mine arrive in late Sep after their review period, and I'm really looking fwd to a major last piece of the jigsaw for my final system revision falling into place.
In other words, tt/cd/amps all pretty much where I want them to be, lingering HF extension reservations re Defs being put right by 4s, so not looking to update beyond these.
Just looking at system wide issues ie better balanced power/room nodes attenuation/cabling/vibration control.
Your comments Phil are really filling me with confidence I will totally relax into my music when they arrive.
REALLY need to get off the upgrade merry-go-round after this purchase! |
Glory, you're reading a little too much into my comments. I made the choice of Cosmic Carbon from a few square inches of swatch, having never seen this colour in the flesh. So I just wanted some feedback from actual owners of Zu's in this colour that I hadn't made a huge mistake.
I'm not expecting anyone to say one thing or the other re my gear, just giving other readers of this thread an idea of my system so qs/opinions on the Def4s have a reference point.
If you really think I need adulation, I do, ALL the time. Why do you think I contribute to this thread, contributed by others who ALL need adulation too? Maybe you do, also.
The UK distributor asked kindly if I'd lend my spkrs out for review (since v. few pairs exist in the UK), and I gladly said yes. My little bit to advance the good name of Zu to the audio community which really do need to sit up and notice them. No $$$s in it for me.
You screwed up and should have checked your facts first LOL.
Your comments on the Olympics are the first correct comments you've made towards me, yes I very much agree with you there. |
Phil, when I receive my Def4s I'm going to install them with my current Hovland HP200 tube pre/Radia SS pow amps.
Luckily in the UK I will have the opportunity to audition Audion Black Shadows SET pow/Audion tube pre (or Silvercore TVC pre), Dave Berning VOTL 230 pre/pow and ASR 4 box amps.
My new tt is unbelievably fast, a function of it's neutrality, lack of overhang and superior timing, and I have my eyes (ears?) on a very fast, analogue like cd player. From what I've read, the Def4s have a very fast delay of 5ms betwen the drivers, as opposed to the usual 20ms (a function of no crossover maybe?) contributing to maximum speed.
This preamble is to state that speed and neutrality are becoming the benchmarks for me.
I know the ASR, and esp. the Berning combination of amps are v. fast, and I gather you feel the Audion Black Shadow is just as fast as these choices. Am I correct in this? The reason I ask is that I've never heard an all tube pre/pow combination that I was totally content with in this respect, but with your encouragement, maybe I should consider Audion. |
The Audion and Berning will have to be a significant improvement beyond where my Hovlands are at present to consider upgrading. I remember when I got them in 2005 I was so happy with the excellent synergy between the tube pre and SS pow, and I'm still happy with them now.
I have a strong suspicion that the better bandwidth and transparency of the Def4s esp. lifting the veil from the treble of the Def2s will reveal the Hovland combo to be more excellent than ever. |
Phil, plus others, any comments on the Zu Event SpeakOn connectors which maintains cable integrity from internal drive unit wiring to amps?
Is it really the advantage it's touted to be? Have been quite happy to order it since price differential over regular hook up was reasonable.
Haven't seen it on any other spkr installations. |
Phil, I'm glad you stress the neutrality of the Event B3 SpeakOn cable. I'm finding more and more that neutrality and speed are what I'm looking for. My tube pre/ss pow Hovland combination will benefit from it I'm confident going into the Def4s.
Can you comment any further on the upgrade to the structure of the speaker? It sure seems beefed up wrt to the Def2s. From what I gather the front baffle and base plate the super tweeter and sub woofer drive unit are fixed to are pretty substantial and contribute to the improved sound quality. |
So Gopher, and Phil, what's going on with such a dramatic change going from so-so sound to ground breaking with a change of tubes?
The main reason I ask is that my Def4s are finally being installed in a couple of weeks, and my pre (Hovland HP-200) is tube. I'm running them with 1950s NOS Telefunkens.
I'd hate to have to investigate new amp combinations at this time, and I'm not the best person to tube roll.
Btw, LOVE these tubes, they sure are fast, but not too clinical, in my current system. |
Thanks Gopher. I found the stock tubes in my Hovland pre were always a bit plain and undynamic with the Def2s. This was remedied by going the NOS Telefunken route, opening up transparency, sparkle, speed and dynamics, but not sacrificing analog warmth.
It looks like they'll be an ideal match for the Def4s.
Additionally, my new direct rim drive tt/air bearing linear arm is showing my cd player a clean pair of heels. From your comment, this gap may be widened still further. |
Hi Mrpaul, you're the most recent owner to praise the new Def4s. Mine are to be installed in exactly 2 weeks. They've been out for a pro review, so should be no bedding in issues.
I've bought them blind (deaf?) w/out audition to replace my beloved 2s, so this unanimous thumbs up is filling me with (cautious) confidence.
The thing I am most concerned about is whether there is any loss of the seductive Zu tone dense presentation, with perhaps a move to a more spotlit hi fi type sound.
I would hate it if improved treble extension, midrange transparency and bass control in the 4s led to a hyped up exaggerated presentation I moved away from in the first place going to Zu 5 years ago.
Deep down your comments as well as Phil's and Gopher's should mean this fear is unfounded, but as in so much of audio, new very rarely means truly improved. |
Fantastic, Mrpaul. Much as I love my 2s, treble was always a conundrum. It appeared to be absent in the traditional hifi style of presentation ie not spotlit at all. Just a wall of highly communicative dynamic tonally rich midrange. Then a percussion instrument or high pitched string would appear to remind me, yes, treble info is there after all, just v. reticent. Bass integration was a real issue too until I invested in the SpatialComputer Black Hole, and now I have less reservations.
It's so reassuring that greater resolution thru the frequency extremes augmented by greater performance of the all-important FRDs are keeping all that is great about the 2s but taking things to a better all-around package.
It's interesting that with me, satisfaction with the Zu sound means that I'm "hearing" the xover in other spkrs, even those at the very high end. Once smitten by the Zu sound it's hard to go back.
These really are going to have to be my final spkr upgrade, and I'm really stoked for a week on Monday! |
Excellent review of the 4s just published on The Audio Beat. Roy Gregory concludes that they are virtually unbeatable value for money at their price point, on a par with performance of some spkrs twice their price. He also feels that they balance a wide ranging set of virtues normally hard to achieve by the majority of spkr manufacturers. His only less than stellar comments refer to a touch of possible harmonic leaness thru the frequency range. Even with this it is not so much a shortcoming of design, but part of the compromises all designers have to balance to achieve the desired end result in sound quality.
So if I am not mistaken, the first in depth pro review of what may prove to be giant killers in the field of spkrs, and likely to set the standard even in the $30000+ category.
And the best news? These are the very pair that are being installed in my loft on Monday! Happy days! |
Well, the Def4s have arrived, and I'm still taking stock of them, so my considered response will take the form of a few postings. I thought I'd leave a few initial impressions. First aesthetics; I'm SSSOOOO glad my girlfriend made me go for Cosmic Carbon, it's such a good match with the Aluminium driver rings and tweeter lens, and fits my loft decor perfectly. This finish never seems to work in photos but is to-die-for in the flesh.
So, the sound. Yes, it is a cliche, but it really sounds like a different speaker, but the same. In a nutshell, it shares all the DNA of my previous Def2s with a definite increase in sophistication common to spkrs much further up the price scale.
This is most noticeable in a quantum leap improvement in transparency. There is a real "hear thru" quality to the sound, but maintaining the Zu tonal density. But now, instead of a concentration of musical energy into a sort of wall of sound, there is a more layered quality to the presentation. It's the same, but very different. This increased transparency really allows music to breath more easily than the old Def2s, which seem coarse by comparison. This is the only area where I disagree with Roy Gregory in his Audio Beat review, IMHO there is no "harmonic leaness" (about the least accurate criticism to be levelled against Zu).
But don't be fooled if my words make you think that we now have a polite, twee sound. No , nothing of the sort, and I'll explain more at my next post... |
Ok, time for the second part of the early listening experience with my new Def4s. At present I'm only listening to cd, and as an analogue fan, any extra enjoyment when listening to the necessary evil that is digital is a massive plus.
I previously referred to the more sophisticated sound of the 4s compared to the 2s, summarised by a massive increase in transparency and delicacy, no doubt a direct result of the improved full range nano drivers. Initially this appeared to be at the expense of tonal weight, but on further analysis I just wasn't used to the massive speed of these drivers. The old drivers in the 2s sound earthbound on reflection.
The great thing is that once adjusted to this extra speed, you realise the delicious full bodied balance of the 2s is maintained into the 4s, and the ante is really upped by this lightning fast transient response. So now we can have tonally dense, the trademark Zu sound, in combination with a lot of what electrostatics have to offer. I'm not sure I've heard such a magic combination even in uber spkrs like Wilsons and Magicos. I was really fearful the Zu sound might be "tamed" in the 4s, but this extra transparency really has just enhanced all that the 2s had to offer.
So, that's a summary of 90% of what these marvels have to offer. Next I'll discuss the bass, and fear not, there'll be LOTS to discuss here... |
Absolutely, Gopher. So, I've covered the all important FRDs. Now onto the bass. Any reservations as to 4 x 10" woofers being replaced by a single 12" dedicated sub were blown away by the rapid realisation that the full bass extension of the 2s had been retained with a greater speed, agility and tonal differentiation in the 4s. Finally I'm able to integrate the bass much better into my room, and vitally, it integrates itself much better with the FRDs. This really makes for a seamless mid-low spectrum, and much more spatial and temporal microdynamic presentation, especially revealing of bass ambient clues (eg the edge of organ notes as they reverb in the recording space) and bass impact (eg differentiation of individual kick drum/piano hammer strikes). The boogie/party factor is all present too, with fantastic PRAT. Rest assured, the bass of the 4s is of a whole magnitude better than the 2s, and you will not find it wanting. I'm sure the more substantial weight/bracing/plinth of cabinet is making a major contribution here. |
Sorry A'goners for my delay in my last posts re the Def4s, but "real life" intruded over the last week. I've found that as I've gotten older, and family/business issues become more serious and intrusive, I more and more really crave the serenity that a great audio system gives me, and my stress can melt away while listening to my regular diet of 3 albums a day.
Anyhow, covered the FRDs mids and bass, last thoughts are on treble. Here I'm a little less decisive in raving about the 4s. This is only since previous comments stated it to be qualitatively a leap beyond the 2s whereas in my room it is more of an evolution.
What I always loved about the 2s was the absence of the sort of spotlit treble evident in so many high end spkrs, and I do feel this characteristic isn't changed dramatically by the 4s. Now I know that this is a flavour imposed by the FRDs, and since the mids are SO much more transparent and delicate in the 4s this is likely what I'm experiencing with the treble. Again, high frequencies aren't overt until dominant in the program material, and then the music soars into the ether.
So my final conclusions. This is an AMAZING speaker, and a leap beyond what the 2s were able to offer. Most importantly, the new FRDs really introduce an electrostatic like transparency and delicacy to the addictive tone dense sound that we all love about the 2s, with no down side.
Bass is really impactful, more tuneful and much more integrated into the whole. Treble is less noticeable as a step up, but this may be the point: the FRDs covering it are so brilliant on mids on up that this character into the highs is all part of a subtle blend.
I was SO fearful upgrading sound unheard, but all has been allayed. The 4s are an absolute giant killer, imho really treading onto the territory of uber spkrs over 4x the price, but maintaining and enhancing the addictive tone dense Zu sound that no other spkrs seem to approach. |
I believe it's resolution at low levels is exemplary, a lot to do with it's famous tone dense presentation, high efficiency and lack of crossover.
Density of tone means that the sound is fully fleshed out from low, late night volume levels, whereas with a lot of more expensive speakers (the Kharma's esp IMHO), the sound only "gels" at reasonably high SPL's. So there is no real need to turn the wick up unless you want to, and music can really be enjoyed at intimate listening levels. Additionally high efficiency and an easy impedance curve means that low watt tube/SET's which excel in the more personal type of sound really find a great synergy with the Def4s (and all other Zu models I believe). Finally, no crossover means no sucking of energy out of the presentation, and with the FRD's covering a broad spectrum of frequencies, this adds to the holistic presentation at low to moderate SPL's.
All of this results in excellent resolution, the 4s being a real leap fwd compared to the 2s. Having heard Pro Acs, B&W's, Magicos and Wilsons etc. over the years, IMHO the Def4s give nothing away in terms of resolution.
But that resolution is portrayed in a different way to most other spkrs, cheap or uber expensive, on the market today. |
Gemini, I can't comment on the Soul, just the Def2s and 4s. I'm not hearing any decrease in liveliness, the extra transparency of the 4s' FRDs is providing even more life at low levels in my system, minimising any remaining veil to the music occasionally apparent with the 2s.
Maybe 213Phil can offer his 2 Cents... |
Hmm, expensive tubes, and just when you thought you could get off the constant, pricey, upgrade path...
Back to the matter at hand, the Def4s. These really are chameleon like, and require a LOT more work than the 2s to get right, but BOY is it all worth it when they're singing. My main downside is that I'm struggling to get my analogue to sound of it's best. My new tt with the Def2s roundly trounced my digital, but with the 4s I can't quite dial analogue in right yet, and my EMM Labs cd is in pole position, sounding just great. I'm finding that with the quantum leap in transparency possibly my cart or phono stage loading is awry, but am sure I will get there. I'm very tempted to audition the Soundsmith Straingauge cart, possibly the fastest most transparent cart on the planet, which I think may well complement the 4s nicely.
These babies are a lot more sensitive to set up - I'm finding they really like a lot of toe in, and the bass adjustments sound great with factory presets. IMHO don't be tempted to boost the bass too much, otherwise a real disconnect from the FRDs will result.
I'm happy to say I'm "getting" the treble now. Initially I felt it was still too reticent, like the 2s, but as I've got used to them, the HFs are really opening up. I love how the treble really is a natural extension from the FRDs and not spotlit at all. This is all adding to the sense of realism across the board.
My only slight feeling of disapointment is that they sound a little more subdued than the 2s at lower volumes, puzzling since the efficiency rating is still 100db+. I am finding the need to turn the volume up a little more, which is an issue during late night sessions. It may be that the gains in transparency and detail is slightly offset by a decrease in density.
Will post further as get to know them better. |
Phil et al, can you pass an opinion on this? I'm sitting 12' from my Def4s with them 8' apart and 4' from the front wall. I've absolutely LOVED them playing cd, but have struggled a bit otoh playing lp's, to the point of distraction that no amount of altering tracking weight/speed stability/vta/phono loading has made any difference. Up until now I've had the 4s at the same layout to my 2s ie gentle toe in with line of drivers intersecting slightly behind me.
But in sheer desperation I've ended up toeing them in SEVERELY ie intersection of drivers at least 4' in FRONT of me. WOW! WHAT a difference! On analogue replay, focus has really tightened, dynamic snap has returned, and unbelievably now that I'm seeing a good proportion of the outside wall of each speaker, there appears to be minimal diminishing of soundstage spread. I am really suprised that such an extreme layout would work so well, and be needed for me to hear of their best.
So, are all of you other 4s owners settling on such extreme toe in? And why would this be so necc for analogue replay when cd replay was quite happy with more normal toe in?
I am one happy bunny, but holding off on final ok re playing lps until I experiment a little further.
All opinions welcome. |
Hi Markpao, you certainly haven't understated the situation when it comes to the need for constant tweaking of the 4s to get them to sound of their best! I'm back to less toe in, but 8' apart is as far as I'm likely to get.
One big difference which has helped, is to drop the Low Pass Filter setting on the sub bass from factory preset 60 to 40 (initially I had turned it up to 90), and volume to maximum. This has reduced absolute quantity of bass but seems to have improved it's overall clarity and extension. In my room this seems to be working now the sub bass only really comes in at the gentle roll off point from the FRDs.
I'm a little confused by the PEQ Gain, PEQ Frequency and Phase sub controls. In my room at any rate I can't discern any change to sound quality with any variation in these settings. |
Phil, your thoughts on toe in are spot on, I've reverted to a less acute angle for the 4s, their axes now intersect just behind the listening position. I'm still having frustrating issues dialling in analog, and am of the firm opinion that these spkrs are so revealing that components upstream really have to be performing of their best (which my tt obviously isn't quite).
I've decided to install a wall shelf to give the best inert platform for my tt, comprising, in sequence, wall brackets, 30mm slate shelf, sorbothane hemispheres, and second 30mm slate shelf. I'm confident this will give my records the shot in the arm the Def4s demand.
Can anyone out there tell me if I should be hearing anything adjusting PEQ on back of the 4s, to my ears nothing discernable. |
I'm finally cracking the conundrum of the 4s, ie so much potential, but so many ways to not get them to sound that great. I've really been struggling getting esp. my tt to sound on a par with my prev 2s, and this has been spoiling my overall enjoyment of the 4s.
I've returned to less toe in, the spkrs are now 8' apart centre to centre of drivers, axes intersecting a few feet behind me, such that I can see a little of their inner walls, 14' to listening position and rear of spkrs 4' from front wall.
But, most critically, I've tamed the bass by turning the Low Pass Filter down to 40, and Volume down to 5. This has allowed bass to bloom more naturally in my space, and removed all hints of boxiness that was obscuring transparency and drawing attention to the cabinets.
The spkrs esp. on playing vinyl are now transformed, delicacy and transparency really heightened with deep bass only evident when present in material, adding that final jump factor back into the presentation.
I really couldn't be happier, aided by the fact that I'm incorporating a Symposium Isis rack into my system, really dealing excellently with vibration control. |
So Phil, you set low pass filter at 38, me at 40. Where do you set volume (me at 5), and are you getting any change with both PEQ and phase settings (I'm not)?
The 4s are so revealing that I think I'm hearing my SS power amp fingerprint in the sound and am very tempted to go all tube.
I'm very aware of your preference for the Audion Black Shadow, but my UK Zu dealer also installs Atma-Sphere, and advises keeping my Hovland HP200 tube pre, and partnering it with the Atma S-30 OTL amp or even the Novachron triode OTL amp.
I have to say if choice was down to art deco looks to die for in an amp, I'd snap up the Novachron in an instant! Very little discussion of this unit on the web since it's only been reintroduced recently, but your forthright opinions on the Novachron and S-30 would be much appreciated. |
I've never yet heard a tube amp to sound lean and analytical, BAT gear esp. always strikes me as too lush and warm.
At this point in my audio quest I have struck a good synergy between Hovland tube/SS and the Def4s, and so have to make a decision to investigate OTL Atma Sphere/Dave Berning, SET Audion, Tom Evans Mastergroove upgraded phono stage or Soundsmith Straingauge cart, or working on system wide improvements (supports/cabling/power). At present can't afford all three. |
My Hovland HP200 tube pre/Radia SS power amps are showing a good synergy with the 4s, and I'd really need to be convinced of the benefits of all tubes to make the pricey step up.
In the UK it's getting harder and harder to make meaningful audio comparisons, so I have to grab auditions when I can.
If I move from the Hovlands, my likely alternatives are the Atma Sphere S30/M60/Novacron or Dave Berning OTLs, and Audion Black Shadow 845 SETs.
Simon, the UK distributor of Zu really rates the Atma S30, maybe this is where I'll end up, certainly will be my easiest to arrange audition. |
