At the risk of invoking more of sirspeedy's wrath for obstinance, I have to pipe in here a touch.
The Ushers are indeed good, I don't think anyone can argue that fact, as a friend of Bruce Jacobs and having sold several Ushers to my own friends, I would be hard pressed to say otherwise but they are not the Peaks, no insult intended but raising cows don't make you the best cook, the Ushers lack something, to me anyway, there is a texture, a finesse, a artistic balance type presentation that the Peaks do, that the Ushers just don't, another thing I've found, is the Ushers are somewhat tough to drive, making what some would say are the better sounding amps, like SET's or OTL's unusable to a certain extent, with them.
So the Ushers may have gotten some things right but they lack the "sophisticated" texture, presentation and even the easy load of the Peaks and some other speakers as well.
Not to say I would not own a pair but I wouldn't try to fool myself into believing they were Peaks, Sonus Fabers, or Verity's. |
WOW,what did I do,to allude to anyone feeling they could irk me,into feeling "one" was obstinant?? -:)
I simply initiated this thread to gain info on some products that interest me.There are loads of audio "toys" that are just fine,as far as I'm concerned.The Peaks,and Ushers clearly fall into that category.You guys can battle it out for world supremacy.I just want to hear my beloved music collection reproduced with my own set of priorities considered!
I must admit that ALL arguements made here are well thought out,and understandable.The last post by Audiooracle is well written,and quite plausable.That being said,I for one never make a buying decision based upon price,or some reviewer(they are simply hobbyists,ya know)applause.Others may differ,when it comes time to buy something.That's fine by me.
I can make a STRONG argument for "anyone"(including myself)keeping,or trying to procure the "classic"(I own it,and know)Avalon Ascent "series two"(later upgrade)speaker system.It seems clear to me that these were discontinued(four "hard to talk wife into" cabinets) for policy reasons,concerning "selling more product".I have no doubt here,and really do understand WAF,as well as sales volume DO impact corporate decisions.With regards to the Ascent,I make this claim,not to further my own rationalization,but in lieu of design parameters set forth by some "weighty" posters,here!!Massive construction(six inch thick front cabinet)/very easy load to drive/massive external crossover/sealed design,with a "Q" factor of .5(accuracy in bass/midbass,beyond a ported design)/incredible hand made(four cabinetmakers taking two weeks to finish "one" pair)cabinetry,in beautiful "tropical olivewood"(no longer available due to deforestation(the "rarity factor")/SOTA clarity and timbral purity/first rate internal componentry and wiring/and I have NEVER heard ANY design that can match it's soundstage ability etc.What's not to like?Yet,and yet......
My point being,that "any" well versed design can find a wide audience,with proper marketing,and a good design base.That STILL does not stop someone like myself from continuing to seek information on "appealing" designs."YOU" never know when something "else" will stand out,in your mind,and force a change!It has happened to me alot.Though(thankfully) not as much now,as in my foolish youth.I've learned a bit,in my old age.The "thinking" hobbyist has a decided edge over the "fickle"!It's the "fickle" hobbyist who is most impressed with "price cache".Alot simply want something special.Something that can stand the test of time.Reliably!
Sorry for the rant.
Best! |
Audiooracle, you are indeed indefatigable.
For me: The fact remains that Chinese HiFi is not about cutting-edge, it is about cutting costs, cutting wages, and cutting corners.
My focus is solely on the highest of the high end performers, the best of the best, and so I am in a somewhat unenviable position: It's not that I mean to be condescending, and I'm sorry if you feel that I am. It's that I must be extremely critical because my clients demand it, and as such I have to call it as I see it.
I have yet to see a Chinese, Taiwanese, Thai, Indonesian, or Malaysian product that can compete at the performance level of true world-class hi-fi references from Europe, North America or Japan.
The Chinese HAVE been able to do something wholly remarkable otherwise: They have been able to fiercely and unapologetically compete for price in the mid-fi market. Many of these companies seem simply to copy or emulate established European, North American, or Japanese designs. In fact, Usher has "shown it's appreciation" for established loudspeaker designs within its own catalog:
Usher Model S-520 seems to be a copy of an Acoustic Energy AE-1, Mk.II
Usher Models X-708, X-718 and X-719 are clearly "tributes" to Sonus Faber's old Concerto speakers.
Usher's D2 is quite the "homage" to JBL's legendary K2
Usher RW 729 is as close to a Sonus Faber Electa Amator copy as I have ever seen! Not only is the cabinet and driver compliment copied, even the wooden and stone-base stand is copied!
The Usher R 1.5 and 6.0 amplifiers seem almost dead copies for the old Threshold amps, while the P-307A preamp seems like it took a page from Cello's old playbook.
If Usher wants to be taken seriously as a competitor in the Reference department, they first have to come up with their own ideas. Instead, their catalog seems abundant with imitations and copies. Not that there isn't room for a Speaker-Clone company, but one cannot simultaneously be a speaker-clone company AND have a reasonable hope to be counted among the legends and references, as well.
There may come a day when Chinese products come in to their own and stand on their own and are not simply just "budget alternatives" to and clones of established references. So I suppose that it might be nice that a 300lb speaker from China is only $16,800/pair ... if we were buying speakers by the pound, that just might be a bargain by some measures. But we don't buy speakers by the pound. We hope for a high level of quality, creativity, originality, and technical achievement.
I understand your mission. You feel that there is a level of snobism in high end audio coincident with higher pricing, and you seem to feel that you can represent products that would bring a good measure of high performance to more people at lower prices, and your primary medium is right here in the internet. Nothing wrong with that. Internet sales and transshipping are the most productive ways to do business in this section of the market because it is hotly contested-for with predatory discounting being the most oft used temptation to attract the potential buyer. So while I do not market directly but rather sell only through authorized dealers, I seem nevertheless to have wandered into your pond and thus represent - if not a threat - at least a distraction. I apologize, but keep in mind that we are not necessarily cultivating the same client.
Where you imagine there to be "audio snobism" there is rather a client that is a connoisseur. This is someone who appreciates the advanced performance, the heirloom build quality, the heritage and provenance, the peerless musicality, and the notion that they will own something that is the Real Thing and not the budget-alternative or the clone. This isn't snobbery, it's a deep appreciation for the whole picture.
There is a neatness, a meticulously considered philosophy that is as simple as it is profound, and when one finally comes to terms with its uncomplicated beauty - there is a tranquility that it imbues upon the decision making process:
In reaction to my rude inquiry about how my friend (on a small wage) could afford to have purchased something very expensive, he simply commented, "I am not so rich that I can afford to buy cheap things."
And while the beauty of that sentiment is meaningful to audiophiles on a budget, the fact remains that *nobody* is so rich that they can afford to buy cheap things. Cheap things break. Cheap things deteriorate. Cheap things discolor and crack. Companies that make cheap things disappear and their promises, guarantees and warranties vaporize.
**That means, taken to lengths, that cheap things are more expensive than the more expensive things they are positioned to displace.**
As for a "shootout" with Zoltan - that would be silly. Any comparison should be as close to a dollar-for-dollar comparison between products as possible. As such, I would say the only appropriate speaker to compare the $16.8k Ushers to would be the $16.5k Peak InCognito-X. That leaves a simple $300 deficit between them to the favor of the Peaks, which are also about half as heavy as the Be20 (good news for people with stairs).
InCognito-X's run fairly loud on my 10 watt OTLs, although they'll handle up to 500 watts of solid-state if need be. I'm not certain that the Be 20 could get appreciable sound pressure at 10 watts, nor could it handle 500 watts of program - so I'm not sure if the comparison would be fair.
That very flat impedance and phase response of the InCognito-X really helps any amplifier perform at its most linear, and the excellent sensitivity means that you can throw low power tubes in the mix without apologies. Again - with abilities and peerless measurements like these, it's not necessarily fair to the Usher to compare.
That InCognito-X is a full-range 2-way design means that the acoustic output of the drivers will converge at a shorter distance with less wave interference, making the InCognito-X an excellent choice for even nearfield listening. I imagine that Usher won't do well in small spaces for nearfield listening, so we best not compare in these circumstances in order to level the playing field.
InCognito-X won't hit the 22 Hz mark of the Be 20, but they will come within a gnat's hair of 25 Hz in an average-sized room and will be extremely dynamic, with holographic imaging and midrange to weep for. So while it would work well in the nearfield, it will also (of course) work extremely well at standard listening distances.
Sound by Singer will soon have a pair of InCognito-X on the floor (they begin shipping from Denmark early next month) - go have a listen. You'll be shocked and amazed at what one can buy for just $16,500/pair: A full-range world-class loudspeaker handcrafted with real hardwoods by Danish fine carpenters, some of the best loudspeaker drivers in the world, with music reproduction so fine that - as one HE 2006 showgoer put it (when commenting about the sound of the InCognito-X in our demo room) - "If you weren't touched by the sonics in this room, you're made of ice!" |
This one goes out to Allanbhaganinfo. I respect your opinion but we are one of the first few dealers in the country to deliver and install a pair of the BE 20s.
I would agree with you that the first Dancer series model, the extremely good 8571MK II's are not true competion to a $35,000.00 pair of Peaks, but the BE 20's are a different keattle of fish entirely!
When you examine what the BE 20 offers: a brand new state of the art pure Beryillium midrange driver, coupled to Usher's allready superb Beryillium Tweeter and you add in the magnificent Eton woofers, here is where you have the makings of a reference speaker giant killer at anywhere at 1/2 or even a 1/3 or more of these other reference class speakers!
Karma Grand ref has a Ceramic midrange and tweeter and two Eton woofers in a carbon fiber based cabinet. The Kharma's are $80,000.00 a pair!
The BE 20's have a pure Beryillium midrange and pure Beryillium tweeter and two Eton woofers in a 300lb sandwich cabinet of birch, mdf, and lead sheeting which makes the cabinet also incredibly innert and costs $16,800.00.
Sounds like you are getting a lot of the same design merits doesn't it?
I have heard the BE 20's both at the shows and at my client's home. We all went "ahhhhh" when we unboxed the speakers the finish was so stunning. The sound quality and build quality of these speakers is remarkable, and I would challenge you or anyone else to do a side by side comparison against the BE 20.
Does this sound like a rave, well your right it does. After spending close to tweenty years selling extremely expensive cost on object audio, along comes a company like Usher and their Texan gentilemen distributor, to bring remarkable sound and build quality at sane prices back to the market.
This is the reason I am an Usher zealot. Why should I want to charge 30k or 40k or 50k for a speaker when I can offer my clients very similar mind blowing sound for so much less, I call that integrity and serving my clients.
Yes I want to scream to the audiophile world "I am feed up and I won't take it anymore, buy Usher and be happy for a lot less!" |
To Sterovox,
Your arguments are both amusing and just plain wrong!
First of all, I am no internet dealer. In fact, I do no internet sales of any kind! I am a brick and mortar dealer with close to a half million dollars worth of equipment on my floor! I do not sell outside of my region and I do not discount nor am I trying to sell to "budget oriented customers." Our website isn't up yet and we have not announced our presence to the world yet but we will.
Instead, we have been quietly assembling a very wide selection of some of the world's best audio and video gear.
You are right. I am on a mission. I sell state of the art products at all prices from companies that I and many famous reviewers feel represent some of the best products in the world. I sell products from Japan, France, New Zealand, Germany, Israel, England, Scotland, the United States, Taiwan and China. If I told most of the readers of these posts the truth, that many top European high end companies are building their products in China or some of the parts are being outsourced from China it would shock a lot of people.
In fact, the latest issue of Stereophile talks about the superior builds quality and artistry of the famous Quad speakers which are now being made entirely in China. In the review the writer states that the new Quads are much better built than the old Quads and are stunning in both finish and build quality! Isn't England also in Europe?
Also your anti Chinese bent is downright distasteful. The Chinese people were way ahead of the Europeans for many, years. China leads the world in the sciences and the arts. It was the Communists that keep the Chinese people down and off the world stage.
You call a value priced product cheap, and poke fun at how heavy the speakers are. LetÂ’s compare the technical prowess of Peak Consult or lack their of:
First before you decided to import them, no one knew who Peak Consult was. How long have they been in business?
Usher is a 30 year old company committed to the highest levels of quality. Their state of the art factory is certified ISO 9001 which represents laboratory grade manufacturing. Their work force is college educated and is treated very well.
I said in another post USHER makes their own pure Beryllium drivers. The only other company to do so is JM Labs/Focal and even JM Labs hasn't built a midrange driver out of Beryllium! Usher also has created their own driver technology from scratch. Peak, if I remember, buys their drivers from Audio Technology.
I guess then making your own extremely technologically advanced drivers is therefore lacking in imagination and ingenuity. Before you say "copy cat of JM Labs," the Usher Beryllium tweeter measures better with lower distortion! ALSO I will say it again, USHER MAKES THEIR OWN pure Beryllium Midrange Driver and are the only ones to do so! This midrange driver was extremely expensive to produce and took two years of development time!
Usher is also a $70 million dollar company that has the research money to develop their own technologies. You are misunderstanding Usher in calling their speakers clones of others when their intent is to offer a wide range of products for the Asian market. USHER speakers are easy to drive and offer remarkable performance for the money.
Many reviewers have already rated numerous Usher models as offering outstanding sound quality and build quality.
If it is the clone game, gee, I think you could call a $16,000.00 two way the new Wilson Watt!
Yes, the two way Incognito X sounds like a remarkably good two way, but I will stand on my contention and I will gladly bring my 300lb Taiwanese {not Chinese made} monsters to compete with your $35,000 Zoltan's any day of the week.
As per fine Danish woodworking, the build quality of the cabinets is equally stunning and shows the finest artistic talents and care.
As for your comments about Sonus Faber clones, then I guess anyone who has made a two way with Scan Speak drivers could also be called that.
I will agree with you that Usher does build some clone or homage products, but that is an Asian company building a wide range of products for the Asian market. Imitation in the case of the Threshold clone shows a fondness for the original, which is no different than someone now coming up with a new version of the famous Dynaco Stereo 70.
No Stereovox, you are the one trying to justify a $90,000.00 turntable. Is this for the connoisseur or the snob with more money than sense! I am sure the turntable is quite fantastic, but how much better is it really than one of the multitude of other reference turntables that are priced at $10,000.00 or so. Artistry? Or is it just throwing money at it to enrich the pockets of the greedy retailer and the importer! I would love to hear how much better your $90,000.00 turntable is over Lloyd Walker's magnificent Proscenium Gold turntables which is $30,000.00?
My company stands for the new generation of high end audio.
Our focus is to sell the best in equipment which is superbly made and reasonably priced!
I will be happy to let you believe in your delusion that because a product is made in Europe, and I sell many really excellent European products including Danish speakers as well, that is it better because it is made in Europe.
My call to arms is for all companies to work to produce products that are excellent and affordable. I find it delusional for you to compare your $16,000.00 two way to the four way BE 20 and stand there trying to be credible.
Wake up, the world is on notice that both mainland China and Taiwan are heralding in the new industrial revolution. American and Europe builds less and less, not because the Chinese are making goods cheaper, but because they are making goods of remarkably high quality and doing it competitively! This is the way of the world. Most Japanese goods are no longer made in Japan either.
It is for this reason that superior Chinese and Taiwanese companies are taking over the world of manufacturing. The build quality of these goods is fantastic and the technological innovations are the reason most of the world's finest laptop computers are made in Taiwan.
Let you and Sound by Singer sell all the Peak Consults you like to people with more money than brains. I will be happy to educate my customers, the people who are willing to listen and to judge a product by its technical merits and artistry for themselves
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