I have been about 6 times at clients with Wilson Audio speakers. they had one thing in common. They had a lot of acoustic problems. Some music you even could not play. They say Wilson make very fast speakers in respons. To be honest I don't think so. Wenn timing is better with speakers you get less acoustic problems. I sold my Pass Labs XA100.5 to a client with Puppy 7 speakers. To be honest it was quite good. Most times I listend to Wilson speakers I would not even want them for free in my room. Because I prefer en deeper and wider stage first. And second instruments and voices need to be extreemly sharp focussed and in the right proportion. This is a part were Wilson is not as it's best. With many amps Wilson speakers sound lean and far from musical. And yess then you need tube to make it sound acceptable. |
All the times I listend to classical music on Wilson speakers it was so much different then in real. One of my best friends had a small concert room for about 60 people with a Steinway wing. I miss the wood sound of a violin. I miss the sharp and direct focus. An I miss the deep stage. In my world Wilson speakers sound a lot different then in real. I miss too many parts what can be there. For this I would not even want a Wilson speaker for free in my room! |
I would not want one for free in my room. But yess I would one for free to sell to a fool. |
All my clients who owned Wilson speakers had a lot of acoustic problems. Why you would choose for this? Why you choose for a sound what is difficult to get a musical and involving sound. Why you use for less deep stage if you can get a much deeper stage? Why you choose for a focus what is not extrreemly sharp as what is possible? Mmmmmmmm...just tell me........ |
Do not get me wrong. Wilson is not a bad product. But it is not that good many people think it is. Nothing more, nothing less. |
I never sold Wilson. I know for a long time that Wilson sounds a lot different than instruments sounds in real. But many people who bought it do not have this knowledge. I had the chanche to listen en test so many stuff in 15 years. This makes it more easy to judge and understand. In the beginning I did audio for 80 hours a week. I was that addicted. All my free time I spend on testing. Mannnn I love it that much. I like to find out the quality and talents/properties of speakers, amps, cables, sources etc. |
I only think your speakers can go to a higher level in sound by an amp like Pass labs. Densen is a fine amp, but not in the same league as Pass Labs. Everything for his money. Wilson is not an easy speaker to drive and use in a normal living situation. That is main thing I want to tell. And that is important information for people who think about buying them. You always need equipment who have all the talents/properties your speaker own's. For Wilson to come to this level costs more money than speakers which are less difficult to use and place in a normal home situation. |
This weekend I was at a show with 50 distributers. Magico S1, New Dynaudio Platinum, Focal Scala etc. I was here with Monitor Audio Pl-200 ( which is in 3d, speed, natural sound and imaging a lot better than the Pl-300. Which I own for 5 years. And I sold a lot), PLW-15 subwoofer, which is the fastest sub in respons till about 6000 dollar. I used the Pass Labs X250.5 I used the Onkyo BD-SP809 as a source. Before this I owned the Meridian 800 DAXv4 dvd player. The most special thing is: Onkyo PR-SC5509 with Audessey Pro. But now comes the key. I did many tests in the last 15 years. We are talking about maybe thousands of tests. From not expensive till very expensive stuff. Since 6 months I know I have a photographic memory. The part of your brain were you use ther audition for audio had developed a lot. I can hear so much more than normal people can. Many times in 1/10 of a second I know everything of a set. What are the properties in sound. What is there and what is missing. Fort me it has become that easy. I can easily compare the first audition witht the second. I have in my head the first one, the second one I can compare very precise. This makes it more easy to understand the difference. What I did with Audessey pro is using it at Highend Standards. I measure at totally different hights and places compared to the Audyssey Way. The endresults are superior. I can measure so much more dynamics than they do. At the end I have a lot more drive, focus, sound realism, 3d imaging and control. I have even superior level in sound then what I had with my Pass Labs XP-20. Which I owned for 2 years. I did not sleep for one night because I had to do everything myself. At 5;15 I was ready with my Audyssey pro measurment. Wenn I listend I knwe I would have the best sound of everything. In 3 days many people came to me. Distributer owners who said: Bobby you have the best sound by far. Yesterday the owner and boss of the biggest Audio Magazine in Holland said: You had the absolute sound. What will be next. I am taking with a few brands to give shows. I hope to do some in the US as well. Then you can see me and hear were I am talking about. Hearing is believing. Monitor Audio England was even that surprised. I think and work in tools. A source, amp, speaker or cable is a tool for me. I test it and I will lable all the properties/talents it has. I can see and hear 3-4 steps further than other people can in this world of audio. I will soon send some links about the show. To be continued... |
I will need some time to ask your question. I will in a few days. Wenn I give an answer I want to do it right. I promisse. |
Hey Ricred, I see you use Densen. I sold it for a couple of years. You have to understand properties/talents of the equipment you buy. Densen is open, fast en controlled. But it misses the emotional musical sound amps like Pass can give. Focus is good, but not stunning. In highend perspective there is not a very deep stage. Beside this I do not think your speakers are that special. The combination is not the best marriage. I would never advice this combination. Your speakers can give a good wide and deep stage. Not extreemly wide and deep, but it is there. It is not that fastest speaker on the planet. I would choose for a more musical amp like Pass or maybe tubes for your speakers. Definitely no Denson. They are both not that involving, I can imagine you are not extreemly happy with it. I could not be either to be honest. For the money you spend you could get a much higher level. I would have used my money differently. Wilson speakers give many times a lot of acoustic problems. So the people who think it is a fast speaker, just dream on. It is not. Speakers which are fast have less acoustic problems. You go for another amp or a speakerset. |
You can buy Sonus Faber Stradivari for low prices. This one makes music. The only thing what misses is a deep stage. Wilson does this part better. But still not stunning! I did compare in the past the Sasha 2 with the Pl-300 of Monitor Audio. Stage of the Monitor Audio is bigger. There is more air and resolution as well. Instruments were better focussed. This is because the respons of th Platinum series is faster compared to the Wilson's. These days I use a Pl-200 with a PLW-15 subwoofer. One of the fastest and best stealth low freq. I ever heard by a sub. You need to us Audyssey pro. Now I have full 3d sound form 16 hz till above 100.000 hz. The 200 gives me also stunning sound with classical music. Wilson I could not live to listen to classical music. Why? Because in real it sounds a lot different. I would get irritated! I also play 1 metre beside the speakers. This makes the stage very wide. Within this stage I have also a stunning 3s sharp individual focus. Almost all demo's at show's instruments and voices are played too big. With this in mind you will loose intimacy. My way of doing measuments with Audyssey Pro sets music to a much higher level in 3d touchable sound. This was the main reason why people found it the absolute sound of last week. The key is timing and sound realism. I will tell you one difference between Pass and Densen. A Pas can let you hear the difference of two acoustic gutars with ease. A Densen they will sound a lot more the same. Pass is great in sound, 3d and speed en timing is stunning. This is why I will go for the 600.5 this year. |
I had only 2 experience with Good Wilson demo's. The rest, we are talking about many were quite worse. I sold my Pass Labs X100.5 to a client with Puppy7 speakers. This was good, not very good. Because in my world it is not fast enough and I could not use it for classical music. The thing I most don't like is how it projects instruments and voices. My Pl-200 is superior in 3d imaging. It is more round,touchable and more precise in dimension. This last part is crucial for me. This is the highest level of intimacy in sound. Could be also caused by the speed. Many peolple here in Holland have so much acoustic problems witht these speakers. You hear the noise of the room or the sound becomes a real mess. Why you would choose for these problems. Start with a speaker with less flaw's and limitations I would suggest. |
I am not bashing Wilson. The make fine speakers, not impressive.It is as it is. The Pl-200 is more natural sounding compared to the Sasha. read this article:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-platinum-pl200-loudspeaker
Stage of the Pl-200 is wider and deeper compared to the Sasha. Sensitivity is almost the same. S.P.L. of the Pl-200 is almost 118dbA. It is faster in respons compared to the Sasha. It can play at extreme volumes without any stress. It gives less acoustic problems. Monitor Audio tok a lot of efforth to amke it fit in almost any room. Instruments are sharper focussed than the Sasha. Use a Pass Labs amp and you will understand and hear the differences with ease between the two. The PLW-15 is for a 50kg sub with a poweramp at max 2000 watt peak very fast in respons and control. But you need Audyssey Pro to control it. The way we from Sound&Vision Consulting measure sets Audyssey pro to a superior level. Now I have the stealth low freq. I always dreamed of. It is fully integrated with my Pl-200. It is the first time in my life a subwoofer has become one with the frontspeakers. Instruments and voices are even sharper focussed and have the small dimension as they are in real. Wenn you use a sub with his own roomcorrection instruments and voices become less sharp focussed and bigger in proportion as they should be. Wilson is a brand what makes speakers wich are difficult to adapt in a normal living room situation. What I said before; many of my clients with Wilson speakers had the same acoustic limitations. Limitations means less enjoying of your favorite music. I listen for a few hours every day. because I enjoy music now at the max because there are no acoustic limitations anymore. At the end it is all about music. A system is never more than equipment to let you hear your favorite music. It is this simple! |
I do not think Densen is a great match with Monitor Audio. Because it is not able to let you hear the real sound of instruments Pass Labs can give. This is a main propertie in highend sound. You need to be ware of this! |
Wenn I see the pictures here at audiogon of Wilson owners. I see most of them have a separate room and adjust it acousticly. Most clients I visit in the Netherlands had a normal living room were they used the Wilson speakers. Wilson should make a special speaker what would be less difficult to use in a living room. |
You are welcome ofcourse to visit me. I will write a review of the Pl-200 as well soon. Ron Kemp of Kemp Electroniks visit me at the show in Veldhoven as well. He was really surprised by the level of my presentation. He visit other rooms as well. There was no set what could match this level he said. In a few weeks he will come to my house. The set at the show was my set at home. Theo Wubbels of HVT said: my presentation was the absolute sound of the whole show. My photographic memory makes audio so much more easy to understand and adjust. I am only interested in the best level in sound. I want a deep and wide stage with a extrem sharp individual focus. Were instruments and voices have the dimensions as in real. Because at the show most of the systems instruments and voices are played too big. Audioquest and Purist Audio are both aware of the small proportions of voices and instruments in real. Musicians will tell you the same story. For me it is about quality. I want my clients to get the same stunning sound I have. I want my clients tpo get a 10 ( A) for the money they spend. Not an 8 or nine. Because good is not good enough for me. |
The biggest problem Wilson has are the acoustic problems it gives. Wenn you want to buy Wilson speakers you need a big room and a separate room just for music. Second you need to adapt it acoustically. This makes it very expensive to use. You need the right stuff to drive and control it as well. Then you are not even ready. You need to do a lot to get a musical and involving sound. All these parts makes it a difficult speaker to tame. Even the few times I heard it at a good level. I still missed essential parts what should be there. I like the way they look. And it is made with passion. But it will never be enough to buy it or sell it for me. A few years ago I went to a presentation of the Wilson Audio Alexandria 2. Wilson was there as well. I had some very critical questions for him. But the train which I took got broke. We had to wait for over 2 hours. It was too late to go to this presentation. |
The main thing for me is that people get honest information. I do not say a 7k speaker is better than a 30k speaker. What is the end results you get? This is what you hear at the end. You want to enjoy you music with your stuff. I visit enough people with expensive stuff and they did not enjoy it. I understood why. They had many times acoustic problems. Or more over they had the wrong combination of equipment. You have to understand all the properties/ talents of every individual part in your system. Only then you can understand how your sound at home is created. Wenn I see how systems of people here at audiogon are combined of. I can see easy the limitations. Because I know the properties. First you need to understan music and how it sounds in real. With this in mind you need to do your work to get the absolute sound with great precision. Wenn you have limitations in your system you can not enjoy your music. Then this can become an obsession. That is why I say: please think well before you buy a speaker. You need to know how it integrates in home situation. And what it needs to be driven well. En what you need to get a musical and involving sound. The tweeter of the sasha is less open and transperent than the ribbon tweeter of the Platinum speaker. It has more authority in the higher freq. So it sounds less harsh. It is that easy. |
the extra information starting from 16hz-35hz by using the PLW-15 is crucial. It is not only the extra information. Beause I use the PLW15 from 16 hz till 120hz. The integration goes to a touchable level and instruments keep the same proportion as without a subwoofer. Voices and instruments become a lot better in sound as well. Without Audyssey Pro and my way of measering it is not possible to get a full stealth integration. This is the key factor to succes. You even can use it in small rooms without acoustic problems. Normally you would get a lot of acoustic problems wenn music starts at 16 hz. |
To get everything out of the Pl-200 you need an amp which can give an extreme wide and deep stage. Pass labs is one of the best in this area. Second you need the PLW-15 to strat from 16hz. This is crucial to come to the stunning sound. You need to know all the properties it has to get to this sound. Even Monitor Audio itself is not able to get this level. We had this discussion during the show. Most shows with Monitor Audio use amp's which are not able to get this 3-dimensional sound. They never heard there speakers this good. This means I always can go further then other people can. You also need Audyssey pro and my way of measering to get the full stealth low freq. I will keep this for myself. Even this I will not share with the people of Audyssey. What you can get out of a speaker depends about your knowledge in music and in properties of the equipment you use. For me it is that clear! |
There are more speakers which are able to give a deep and wide stage. But.......Monitor Audio Platinum is able to let you hear a 3d extreme sharp individual focus of all parts of the recording. This is the key to the stunning touchable sound I had at the show. I am aware of all the properties/talents of speakers, amps, sources and cables etc. My goal is to use all the properties they have. This only will lead you to the 'Absolute 'Sound. |
This is not about bashing Wilson Audio. Also not to be 100% correct. This is about good quality in sound for every person here at Audiogon. The people who are happy with there Wilson speakers is always good. The most important thing I learned in the 15 year I am in this business. Is how personal sound is. For me it is important that people get good and honest advice. I am aware that words can be read different ways. We are all different. I love to talk about audio. Always interested in how other people think. Like Ricred1 will audition the Pl-200. That are the people I like. There is enough room for every person to have his personal opinion. In the last few months I had a lot of fun here at Audiogon. |
A Pl-200 is a lot easier to drive, but you still need an amp which can give a 3D image. Without it you get an average sound. Most shope in the Netherlands use 2 dimensional amps to drive Monitor Audio Speakers. This means they do not understand the difference between 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional sound. Like they do not know which amps or even speakers have the ability to give a deep and 3-dimensional image. We are talking about quality in sound. Knowledge in sound and music. Music is all about emotion. You want to be touched by the music you love. This you get wenn you have a 3-dimensional intimate sound. Juat like in real wenn it can give you a meltdowns at the moment you did not expect it. The absolute sound is all about emotion and quality! |
I sold the more expensive Rel subwoofers in the past like the Stadium. I never liked it, because it was not fast enough or not one with the speakers. There were many numbers wenn it was not synchron with the speakers you used. To be honest I never thought a subwoofer could become one with the frontspeakers. Until I listened to the PLW-15 with Audessey XT32. I had to admit that things were changed. Everything is possible in life. Ofcourse I am not a fraud, I am who I am. It is only a personal opinion. Nothing more nothing less. Wenn Wilson would like to make a speaker what is more easy to drive and use in a normal livind room he can make it. What is the reason to choose for a speaker what is difficult to drive and use? Wenn you would asked me 3 years ago If I would ever use a subwoofer in a stereo setting I would have said you are crazy. I was only interested in big speakers without a subwoofer. It only changed by the new experience with the PLW-15 with Audyssey. I was even very negative about roomcorrection. I sold Tact in the past. I did not like there roomcorrection system at all. Sometimes things change in life, also for me. New information can lead to other perspectives. I like to make things honest and clear. I will invite NVP to come to listen to my system. Wenn he reads this he can send me an email to: toughest57@hotmail.com |
You have to read more precise. I am just a person who loves audio. There are always many ways what can lead to the absolute sound. At the end it will always be a personal taste. It is about music, this is the essential part of it all. Music can touch your hart.....invloving and musical sound is more important than more resolution and 3d stage. But the last parts can lead to a more stunning and convincing sound. |
I have the freedom to speak. I do not hate any brand. Wenn you would use these words you would not understand life. The conclusion in my personal opinion is that Wilson are not speakers eay to use in a normal living situation. And you need the right stuff to drive it and make it involving and musical. Do not make it sound more negative then it is. People have the right and freedom to speak and have there own opinion. Learn to read more precise!! |
I do consulting, no shop. Totally different approach. That is why I want to make professional review's in full HD with professional camera's which give more and better info about audio products. Because of the less clear information there is many customers make faults which limited them in enjoying there personal music to the max. Wilson does not say; hey you need a big room and acousticly adapt it to get a good sound. And the same about how to drive it. And how to get an involving and music sound. There need to come more open and clear information about audio. This will be in everyone's favour. Makes it more simple!! |
I have nothing to hide.......maybe other ones? |
So Ricred you say;
Wilson is easy to adapt in a normal house situation?
Wilson is easy to drive by most of the amps?
Wilson does not need a lot of acoustic treatment to get a very good sound?
Wilson speakers do need need expensive amp's to come to a high level?
Wilson is easy to get an involving and musical sound? |
I have the same experience about classical music. The sound of a violin or even a cello is in real totally different. |
I did lend the Sasha 2 for 2 months a few years ago. I didn't like Classical music with it. I also owned the Monitor Audio Pl-300 and I also didn't like classical music with this one either. I owned the B&W 800S before the Pl-300 and I loved it for classical music. A friend of mine had a small concert room for about 65 people with a Steinway wing. When the sound is becoming a lot different it does not touch me emotionally. Maybe it is a personal opinion, ( everyone can think differently) this is how I feel it. I am addicted to music since I was 6. I started in audio in 98. In all these years I have done thousends of tests. Because it is the thing I love in audio. Beside this you Always look for the absolute sound. And for me Wilson is not the one who can give me this feeling. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.It is just a personal opinion. |
Every single brand have their own properties. They choose for it because they think this is the best way to create the most realistic sound.I have my doubts as well. But I think Wilson is a very smart person, also from a commercial point of view. People have the freedom to choose.
The question is do people know and understand how to choose? |
Hahahahahahaha......guys audio Always will be a personal matter. If we would have all the same taste, the need for different speakers would not be there.
And no english is not my first language. When you have the freedom to hear so many different stuff you can compare a lot more than any customer ever could do.
Audio is a very addictive hobby, Always looking for better.... |
From 2005-2007 I did visit many people with sets from 8000 dollar till 180000 dollar. I had about 6 times people with Wilson speakers.
A speaker always will be a personal matter. It depends what you prefer. They all had one thing in common. They had acoustic problems with their Wilson loudspeakers.
This is a property as well. This is more difficult to solve. In a normal house situation Wilson are not easy speakers to get a good sound and balance.
Only 2 times in my life I heard a good balanced demo with Wilson loudspeakers. They are not easy.
People who choose Wilson get these difficulties as an extra. You have to deal with it. This cost you time and also more money to get it right.
I don't say it is not possible to get it right. It will cost you more time and money. |
