Actually, I decided to go a bit farther. Hope I don't end up needing AS. It can still be done, but it will take a few minutes longer. ;-) |
Nope, no AS and no AS mechanism still works best for me. Chimes, bells, woodblocks, cymbals, etc. sound clear and even have better timbre. However, as I was clearing the driveway today it suddenly occurred to me that it is well below freezing and the relative humidity is very low. I see about 20%. Indoors. I think I'll be revisiting this in the spring. ;-) |
Great idea for a thread Thomas. However, I don't believe that damage was from AS. Looks too severe. Or were you suffering from the latest AS theories at the time? :-)
I learned from Paul and Doug that AS is at best a necessary evil. So I take the approach that only a small bit of the evil gets into my vinyl playback. I've learned to identify when that distortion is on the record or in the reproduction chain. The result is that AS is almost non-existent, but more than what they use. I think this goes along with what Nsgarch looks for. We may use a different method but the desire is the minimum amount of AS just the same. |
And what is all that black stuff? |
Very good description Nsgarch! My thinking has been along the same lines regarding VTF and AS. If we get beyond the obvious need to have enough force to keep mistracking from occurring, then it has to be the interaction of the generator parts that gives us the differences with small changes in these settings.
The better I can get cartridge alignment (better tools, whatever) the more I do not need to rely on countermeasures such as AS to make things sound good.
Ok, break time from the weather is over. Not ice this time, just snow. I'll take that over ice any day! |
Kirkus, I have a couple of test records that I have no use for. If you'd like them, although it sounds like you already have them, I'd probably take $10 plus shipping.
I have never analyzed this with free body diagrams or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that the more accurately the cartridge is aligned the less those skating force magnitudes get.
As for crushing the dynamics with excessive AS, which is what the test records always lead to in my experience, to each his own. Maybe that does work with Linn. I haven't seen it work for any tonearm I've ever used.
I don't go to the extent that Doug does, but I have heard first hand at his place just how important those minute adjustments he makes are. There is no question that his method works very well. I also now how demanding Doug and Paul are when it comes to music reproduction. It is not an option for them to have a general setting and let that apply to all the records they play. Again, to each his own. |
Hey Stltrains and Doug,
I haven't tried any real torture tracks but so far I'm having very good results running with no AS weight at all with my heavier XV-1s. But I'm wondering why not just loosen the screw holding the end of that line on the AS rather than tying it up? |
That guru white paper doesn't really tell me anything that we haven't been doing, figured out, or already know. There is an assumption, based on rather old technologies, in that paper that any cart/arm combo must have AS compensation. We have much better stylus profiles. We have a much better protractor. We have a much better arm. But there is one part in that paper that I most emphatically agree with. Trust your ears. |
I'm not trying to talk you out of investigating, tweaking, experimenting. Our respective cartridges are different in several ways. I believe you have a great plan going forward. And I neglected to thank you for sharing what you have found regarding AS since using that better protractor.
The concept put forward in the white paper is that all of the adjustment parameters are inter-related. (Those aren't graphs of any data. They are just illustrations to help make this point.) This is something all of us who do their own setups and tweaking have experienced. This is because of the need to compensate for various forces in different planes acting on the cartridge. If one of these forces is removed due to better alignment, then why insist on applying the compensation needed when that force is present? The other parameters are still dependent on each other, but we have removed the need for one. As Nsgarch and I have suggested, (and he did a much better job in his post of 12/22), the better the stylus alignment the less friction there is and the less these side forces are. If they are still there at all. I believe that with the vastly improved alignment we are achieving that lateral force that AS is meant to address is gone or at least reduced to the point that AS is no longer necessary.
I suppose I'm coming around to thinking that Harry was right all along. (Imaging that! ;-) ) AS may well have evolved to compensate for the "close enough" setups that most dealers, and most of us, would settle for. Back when we we're all first being floored by the improvements realized with the better protractor, I believe Doug posted something about how we were now experiencing playback close to what linear arm users experience. |
Thanks for setting me straight on the vector analysis, Jonathan. So we do always have a skating force magnitude with angled tonearms. But that magnitude can vary with the magnitude of the force of the drag on the stylus and thus the needed AS compensation can vary. Perhaps I should take stltrain's stance and question my results further. But it is interesting that several of us have recently found less need for AS since improving on our cartridge alignment. Coincidence? |
Hi Mike,
I haven't smoked a turkey myself in about 25 years. Enjoy! What I'd really enjoy is a properly fried turkey, but that is way too much hassle.
I hope you left out a decimal point. ;-) My stock Triplnar AS weight only weighs 3.9 grams. When I used my little plug of hardwood and 3 o-rings the combined weight was still just less than a gram.
My reference to the local weather was meant as a possible explanation as to why you and I would find such a difference in AS 'cus I don't doubt that you know what you are hearing. I have no idea what Doug has settled on, but if he, Paul and I are still on a like track the difference in weather between New England and New Orleans may help explain things. Also for Nsgarch as I seem to remember he lives in Arizona (?), but he also uses a different arm as well as a different cartridge.
Happy New Year to you as well! |
Ah,well. I'll let someone with more knowledge and a stronger desire to know than I figure out why our results may differ so much. Even though we are using the same arm, similar cartridges and even more similar tables, there are other variables present that may be influencing our results. Of course in my case it could well be that my ears are up me own arse, but I have full confidence in what Paul and Doug hear because I've listened with them several times and have a good idea of what they mean when they describe something to me. Not saying anyone is right or wrong here, just that I have a good reference for communicating with them.
It seems to me that the more we discuss this issue, the less we come to any consensus other than the usual "listen for yourself" and "trust your own ears."
Wow, Mike! No humidity, that's quite an A/C unit you have there! Just kidding, I know what you mean. We keep our house between 65-70 all year round as well. The relative humidity in my room is generally around 50% in the warmer months even with the A/C going. Yes, I'm part of the small population of New Englanders who has central air and uses it. I lived in the south all of my life except the last 12 years so I'm familiar with the humidity levels down there. Humid, to me, means greater than about 65%. That's when I begin to get uncomfortable. Nsgarch's situation is probably different. Does it get humid in Tucson during the monsoon season?
Yes, those turkey frying movies are very impressive but they really do exaggerate the dangers. I especially liek that new cell phone commercial where the guy blows a hole in his driveway. Very funny! Other than using some common sense the only rules I know of are make sure the bird is completely thawed and don't use a bird that has been injected. I've always felt the worse part was dealing with the 5 gallons or so of cooking oil. I suppose a recycler may take it, but you still have to handle it. I won't ever do it, but I must say that when I've had fried turkey at my parents it is without a doubt the moistest bird I've ever eaten. If I was down your way I'd use that cooker for boiling bugs. Much easier and more to my tastes than fowl. |
