2. analog
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Analog experiment

Hi everyone. Some of you will remember my post from a couple weeks back about trying out vinyl. My dealer setup that old AR for me and I listened to it for a while and then listened to the same records on a new Pro-Ject RM 6 SB with a Sumiko Blue Point #2 cartridge. I liked the Pro-Ject better so I took it home for an audition in my system.

I borrowed some basically new LPs from my dealer's collection. Most of them are the 180 gm. "audiophile grade" limited editions. I got U2 War, Eagles Hell Freezes Over, John Lee Hooker, Pink Floyd DSOTM and REM Document. I was familiar with all these and own the CD counterpart of each album for direct comparisons.

I carefully setup the turntable making sure it was level. My dealer has been selling turntables for decades so I trust the other adjustments. I used the C42 to level-match the outputs of my Sony C333ES SACD player and the Pro-Ject, again for fair direct comparisons.

I listened to each album on its own on the turntable and then I went back and played the Sony in parallel. I switched between the two sources from my listening chair. In this case, I would keep the turntable 40 seconds ahead of the Sony so every 40 seconds I could hear the exact same passage in digital form. Hearing memory is short so I kept the interval short. I also made longer comparisons to be sure of my thoughts.

The bottom line is that the Pro-Ject didn't sound any better than my Sony. They had exactly the same tonality and soundstaging. On DSOFTM in SACD, the Sony was virtually indistinguishable from the turntable. I couldn't believe it. This is the first time I can't hear a reliable difference between two different components.

With other records, the turntable seemed to have a slightly more extended and weightier bottom end. But then the Sony had slightly better definition so it was a wash. After these tests, I see no reason for me to go with vinyl. You think maybe the phono stage in my C42 isn't good enough? Or maybe the turntable should be a better one? Well then, I am even less interested in vinyl if that is the case. The Sony costs about $350 these days.

I am sure some of you will be upset with my decision but I have to say I was excited to try it out and I kept my outlook totally unbiased. I loved the looks of the Pro-Ject and my dealer has an awesome collection of vinyl for sale at really good prices so I wanted to tap into that. But I don't see any reason to do that now. Oh well!

Arthur
aball

Showing 6 responses by aball

aball OP
2,018 posts
 
I was probably more surprised than any of you. I have heard vast differences between different components in my system (particularly preamps) and to have so little difference between analog and digital, after hearing all the hooplah, was a total letdown.

So many people have told me "oh vinyl will blow the socks off CD" and yet I couldn't see it whatsoever today. Maybe I do need to hear it a while and see - I have already planned on having it a week and I will have other vinyl to hear on it in a day or two. But I kind of doubt it. Maybe I'll be wrong but...I know my system pretty well now. I listen 4 hours a day every day.

The part I am really surprised about is that I happened to come across a turntable with exactly the same tonality as my Sony. I have had so many flavors through my system and never have two been so close and yet so physically different. I am beginning to think I should try a different one to be sure but the Pro-Ject is decent, no??

Arthur
aball OP
2,018 posts
 
I don't think any of my LPs today were standard pressings - I assume that means they came out before CDs were invented, no?

Well I would enjoy both but to be honest, I already have two sources I prefer - the Sony and my Audio Aero Prima Mk2. The Prima is quite different and is basically what I think analog guys call the "digital" player. I don't see that as a negative - I love its detail and rhythm and pace which beat both the Pro-Ject and Sony hands down. Yet it doesn't have the flat and lifeless sound I have heard from some megabuck CD players but rather has emotion and impact. I have heard better than the Prima but I am satisfied with it.

I just wanted to give analog an honest try to see what I thought of it. If I have to find special pressings to get the analog sound, I might as well stick with finding special CDs to get the best digital sound. SACD version of DSOTM was really awesome today. I had forgotten how good SACD can sound. It really was just like the vinyl in this setup - minus the crackle and pop. :)

Arthur
aball OP
2,018 posts
 
Thanks for all your thoughts.

Rnm4 - As I said already, I did listen to at least one side of all the LPs before ever turning on the CD player. This represented a little more than 3 hours of analog listening before going to CD. Maybe 3 hours isn't enough either but the differences were very clear the whole time so I think it gave me a pretty good idea before the quick A/B session. I will continue to listen to it this week and if the sound drastically changes all of a sudden, I will let you know.

I trust my dealer. We are very good friends and I spend many hours a month in his store. He has had numerous vinyl rigs in store and in his system in the last 30 years. To say he doesn't know how to adjust one, I feel, is incorrect. He is very meticulous (more so than just about anyone I have ever met) and wouldn't tolerate something not being perfectly set. I don't think wrong adjustments are to be considered as a variable here.

It sounds like my original suspicion was right. So many LPs aren't very good recordings - the same problem CDs have. Well then analog doesn't make any sense for me. The first system I ever remember my parents having when I was growning up was CD-based and the first piece of music I ever bought was on CD. I have about 1200 CDs and I have designed my system to make CDs very enjoyable. I took great care to match components that won't make me lose interest in CD playback after an hour. Instead I listen entire evenings in one sitting (except for getting drinks of course :).

I think that if you don't like CD playback, then the setup isn't right. Same story some of you gave me for the analog not sounding right. It is a two way street! There is a lot of overlap between the two so it can't be that one is always worse or better than the other - which I why I posted my results here. I see that some of you already agree with me on this point.

I think for my tastes and collection of music, I will be perfectly happy to stick with my CD players. If I really want analog, I can listen to my Sony and pretend it is a Pro-Ject playing a perfectly clean record. ;) Thanks again

A
aball OP
2,018 posts
 
My first thread asked if cheap used LPs are decent quality/condition and many replies said that they aren't. I guess the analog camp is divided on this point. However, I do know that many used LPs I have looked at in the past looked really rough and I don't see myself using them in a high resolution stereo. My dealer's LPs are quite nice but they cost more than used CDs.

For the amount of money that adding an analog rig (and disc cleaner, and new LP collection) would cost me, I would prefer to buy 400 CDs isntead and just listen to the music. If I had been blown away by the turntable experiement, I would have considered otherwise but that wasn't the case. I feel I already have enough high quality gear to enjoy music so I don't see myself needing any more stuff. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Arthur
aball OP
2,018 posts
 
Jeff - That is a good idea and I will do that for sure. My dealer will love to hear the test as well - he is always up for comparisons.

Shardorne - you crack me up!

For the record, I don't prefer CD over vinyl. I prefer my Sony SCD-C333ES over the Pro-Ject RM 6 SB with Blue Point #2 cartridge in my own system and with my type of music.

Arthur
aball OP
2,018 posts
 
Ok - I got some other vinyl and have been listening to the turntable for 3 days now, off and on, seriously, casually and as background music. This should take care of those who got hung up on the one part of my test were 40 second bites were used. I have been working at home a good bit lately so I listened a whole lot. So here are my thoughts at this point:

It doesn't have as much definition as my CD players and the rhythm and pace kind of suffers as a result. The toe tapping is induced but not as much as my CD players where their better control of leading edges gives the music a pulse of life the turntable can't quite match. Its ability to keep complex music clear and layered is another shortcoming, probably due to the same problem. The differences are slight, of course, but they are there.

However, the bass is excellent - good weight and strength and probably betters my digital sources in many cases. But I am not a bass freak and pace for me plays a bigger role in my decision to keep something or not. The coherence, soundstaging, high frequency extension and midrange smoothness were all basically like I am used to hearing - which means, very good.

When I take it back to my dealer, I will bring my Sony or Prima along too so we can hear them there together. Though some of you will dismiss this test because it doesn't go on for days, I am curious to see if anything will change in another system. But my system is what counts so it probably won't change my mind regardless.

I really enjoyed my time with the Pro-Ject. The problem with definition is an issue though because it hurts the musicality and "liveness" which are core requirements for my tastes. Maybe a different turntable or cartridge would improve it but I already have better for less money so I don't have a drive to try another analog setup. I am satisfied with the conclusion that my CD players are all I need. I am going to buy a few hundred CDs instead of the turntable, disc cleaner, and new LP collection. Thanks for all your comments.

Arthur
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