gdvrbob, almarg's earlier post that he references to above is what got me interested in the DEQX units. It is quite the animal. The one I have is the Premate+. I bought it used. It is a preamp, it analyzes your speakers + subwoofers, your room, and you can make corrections based on the graphs and charts produced. It also has a variable crossover for subwoofers including delay and gain adjustments. But, there is a stiff learning curve because it is a complex unit and the instructions are complete but in a confusing order. I have finally developed my own easy to follow notes that allows me to take measurements quicker. But it still can take 2-3 hours. ozzy |
gdnrbob, Thanks! Yes I did do the DEQX calibration very useful tool. ozzy |
Well, at this point here’s an update of my opinion of the
Atma-Sphere M-60’s compared to my Pass Labs X350.5.
First off, the cu V-Caps have maybe 40 hours on them. I
recall reading somewhere that these caps take the longest of all caps to break
in. Somewhere between 250-500 hours! Ralph from Atma-Sphere indicated 140 hours
is probably all they need. Also, I am still using the older mismatch tubes that
came with the used M-60’s. In addition, some of my favorite tweaks did not
apply well with the M-60’s. One of them that surprised me was the Synergistic
Research carbon XOT’s. The XOT’s placed at the speaker cable ends had provided
a nice sharpening of the image. But now with the Atma-Sphere amps the sound was
limited in the frequency extremes. I think they must have had a conflict with
the M-60’s 4 ohm output impedance. So, I ended up selling them!
So, with all that being mentioned, I am getting some very
nice sound quality even at this early point in the break in process. There is a
very wide and deep soundstage. There is a smoothness that is hard to describe.
It is not a veiling of upper frequencies for I have noticed so many chimes,
bells and every king of tingling sounds imaginable in familiar recordings that
I did not notice before. No, it is a smoothness that makes it easy to listen to
music for long intervals. The vocals are pure and true and to me very lifelike.
And although I am crossing over the lower bass at 100 Hz to (2) JL Audio F-113
subs the bass notes are taking on a more definitive tone. That is, you can
follow the walking of the bass lines better, very enjoyable. Evidently the bass
notes do not just reside in just the lower range.
I originally thought that playing music as loud as before
(compared to my high power SS amp) might be a problem. Yeah, I’m an old time
rocker (64 years old). And, I have been known to crank it up to, “feel the
music”. All you air guitar rockers know what I mean… With the M-60’s, I can still
play the music quite loud with my DIY speakers and external crossover’s. So, I
did a good job matching the driver components to mesh well with the
Atma-Sphere’s. But, the weird thing is, I find myself listening at lower sound levels
more than before and I don’t know why.
Both of the amps (Pass Labs & Atma-Sphere) have their
sonic qualities. I do however believe that my Pass Labs amp has more dynamic’s
and will play significantly louder, especially with lower impedance speakers
like my old Eggleston Andra 2’s. The Pass Labs also has more slam and startle
factor, and they do have similar warmth as the Atma-Spheres
The Atma-Sphere M-60’s have a purer tone and I think
reveal a little more detail. I have many audio recordings that I recorded through
the decades of live performances from TV/Cable/Satellite broadcasts (the
Tonight Show, Jay Leno, Grammy award shows and such) that with the M-60’s I now
detect distortion. Distortion that I never knew were in those
TV/Cable/Satellite recordings with the Pass Labs amp.
At this moment, my preference is the Atma-Sphere M-60’s over
the Pass Labs for its higher sonic purity. And I love those dimly lit tubes!
But, we audiophiles are a fickle bunch that changes minds often. If I change speakers
or if I long for more slam and loudness the Pass Labs will be sitting on the
sidelines. I don’t intend to sell either product at this time.
ozzy |
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atmasphere, Thank you for the help. I should have my NOS tubes from Russia soon, they are now in the USA. And I already have my NOS RCA’s. So soon I will be able to do the dreaded 72 hour burn in without music. almarg, I did buy a few fuses locally. And I ordered about 25 more on Amazon. Glad I didn’t buy the exotic version $$$ SR Black fuses. ozzy
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bigboltz, It sounds like I need more fuses on hand. BTW, I have had a problem finding 3A slow blow fuses. With no more Rat Shacks, and hardware stores don't carry them. The M-60's are settling in nicely. I wonder though on the copper V-Caps and how long they may take to fully break in. The soundstage is becoming very wide and deep. So much so that I am fiddling with toe in / toe out. Someone mentioned earlier that to reduce the light on the yellow and red indicater lamps to try 12v versions. I actually found some 12V-3 watt and that really did the trick! Lamps illuminate but don't overpower the tubes. Question: At the moment I have a mismatch of tubes. Could that cause a shift in soundstage? ozzy |
Just found out why the center image was missing. I had a wire reversed on one of the jumpers to my external crossover. I must have done it while repositioning it on the amp stand. It did sound like it was out of phase. I just posted some pictures of the amps and the external crossover on my systems page. ozzy |
jond, bigboltz, I have tried several times to post but each time I’ll get almost done, then I edit (on Audiogon) and I lose the entire post! What a pain! So, I am using Word and the old cut and paste method. Anyway, I have had several issues, some related to the Atma-Sphere and some not. First off, as Almarg alluded to several replies back that with using the DEQX preamp settings that were adjusted to the Pass Labs amps output / impedances there would be an imbalance between the main and the subs. He was right and I set about to re-DEQX with the Atma-Spheres. If you have never used a DEQX unit it can be quite laborious to complete the process. Then, the next day there was no sound from one channel. All the tubes were lit but no sound whatsoever. I re-checked all of my connections and could find no reason. I thought the worse that something failed internally in the M-60. I called Atma-Sphere and Ralph answered the phone. He suggested that I check the main output fuse. I thought, why, all the tubes are lit? But, when I pulled out the fuse it was blown. Replacing it brought back the sound in that channel. A day later while trying to use the M60 with my home theater, again no sound from the other channel, and that was also a blown fuse. Ralph, suggested that it was probably caused by one of the tubes arching since they have been moved around a lot during shipping and some flaking internal in the tube must have occurred. I concur somewhat, but I also did try to play the M60 extremely loud to test its limits. I had a problem related to my Grand Prix amp stands and with my external crossover boxes. I used a short jumper to connect from the M-60’s to the crossover. When playing music the sound was dull. I thought for sure it was due to the Atma-Spheres. What I found was that the stiff 12 gauge silver/copper wire used as the jumper was actually under the shelf and was supporting the Grand Prix shelf thus preventing the shelf from floating on their own cushy pads. To add to this, HiFidelity sent me one of their new Reveal XLR interconnects for trial and that has been another variable. Placing this interconnect behind my main component rack near the bottom, underneath other connections, was another real pain! The XLR ends are bulky and the cables are not flexible. As much as others are singing the praises of these interconnects I found them dull and limited in the frequency extremes. So, I tried to DEQX again with these cables and I just couldn’t get the sound right. So, I removed the Reveals to eliminate that variable and went back to re-setting the DEQX. To make a long story short, my initial thought on the Atma-Sphere M-60’s is that they have real potential. But I notice that I don’t have a real good center image. This could mean they have a wider soundstage and the need for speaker reposition including toe in / out. So, I really do think it is too early to critique much more until I put more time on the M-60’s. ozzy |
gdnrbob, There are some pictures on my systems page. Except for the front baffle they are hi-gloss and near impossible to take a quality picture of them. The sides and back are curved. ozzy |
Ok, after about a day of use, this is what I just emailed Ralph. Ralph, I am using a DEQX preamp unit. Along with preamp functions it has an electronic crossover. It measures the speakers, subs and then the room. You don't have to perform any EQ function. I was amazed at how very flat my DIY satellites measured! Never, have I seen that type of flatness before with the Pass Labs amp! More to follow. ozzy |
bigboltz, Does the bulb get removed from the outside? And is the 12V version just a simple drop in? rfogel18, Thank you for sharing your experiences. We all learn a lot from members like you. ozzy |
Well, though the Fed Ex truck broke down, I finally got the M-60’s. A Couple of Questions: The ember and red lights are way too bright compared to the tubes. I have put some electrical tape over them to dim them. Is there a more elegant way to do this? The term putting the amp in standby is confusing. I assume this means both switches are on and full power is applied just nothing is playing? Is the screw next to the center switch the DC offset Null adjustment? almarg, You were right about the need to rebalance the DEQX. The M-60’s do not have the same gain as the Pass Labs which caused a big difference in the main speakers and the JL-Audio Subs levels. I have increased the gain through the DEQX for the main speakers, and I will do a complete DEQX setup later. I will hold my comments about sound quality until I have more time using them. ozzy
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knghifi, I did a search on EBay. There are quite a lot to pick from. gdnrbob, Thanks, I went this far expecting big things from the M-60's. But, I'm still not quite sure what to expect. After all, I will be coming from a SS amp that had all the power I ever needed and which has had many reviews that claim the Pass Labs amps has a tube like sound. So, soon I will know about the Atma-Sphere. Thanks Ralph for the additional information. ozzy |
gdnrbob, In answer to your question about tube quality. I believe that tubes made before transistors took over were considered to be of the highest quality. Especially those made for the WW2 war effort branded JAN. (Joint Army Navy). These tubes were used in submarines and were made to be quiet. The materials used were purer and made to withstand stress and would last longer. Replacement tubes were still made decades later. I'm not sure when the US stopped making tubes but Russia and China continued. Tung-Sol is still making new tubes that are said to be of high quality but still probably not as good as the older ones. Anyone else have some input on the different brands of tubes quality? ozzy
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gdnrbob, Let’s just say it was about economics. I have other new tubes available (Tung-Sol and Sovtek) in addition to the Russian and Chinese tubes that I just ordered. So, I’m really not hurting for tubes. But Ralph said to burn in the new tubes for about 72 hours in standby before using. I will be going crazy if I could not try out the amps until 3 days later after waiting this long! So I will use the tubes that will come with the M-60’s for the trial. And, if the Atma-spheres become a keeper, I’ll burn in the tubes that I ordered. I have some new driver tubes coming that I will have on Monday. They are vintage RCA 1950 (9 new). The output tubes that I ordered from Russia are (16 new) Svetlana 1970. The Chinese tubes are (16 new) Shuguang 6NP5PJ. However, if I don’t keep the Atma-spheres I will have a lot of tubes to sell... P.S. As you can tell, I try to never do things half way. I remember years ago my wife wanted a gold fish bowl. I ended up with a 250 gallon saltwater reef tank! ozzy
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bigboltz, That's Great! Mine were also shipped but Ralph said the tubes in the unit are not so good but usable. So, I ordered some NOS from Russia and China but who knows when they will arrive? According to the Fed Ex tracking (at this time), my amps are to arrive on Tuesday. I have a doctors appointment that day so I probably won't be able to use them until Wednesday. ozzy |
bigboltz, Have you received your upgraded Atma-sphere's yet? ozzy |
My long awaited M-60's have finally been shipped! I should have them middle of next week. ozzy |
jond, Thanks! Believe me I'm savoring... bigboltz, Though I don't have the Quatros, I will be using subs and just the signal from 80hz and up will be powered by the M-60's. Do you know the crossover frequency of your subs / Quatros? And, thanks for your update, mine is still on the work bench waiting for parts. ozzy |
bigboltz, Sorry, I'm waiting also. It probably will be a few more weeks before I get them. Hopefully sooner, but they are waiting for some electrolytic caps to arrive. gdnrbob, Thanks, I don't know about you but its hard to be patient when there are several if's that need to be explored. Such as; will it have enough power for my DIY speakers? I think so, but until I can place it in my system I can't be sure. Will I like the sound quality more than my Pass Labs equipment etc.? We'll see. ozzy |
With V-caps and the 3.3 upgrade, I also opted for having dual speaker binding posts installed on each unit. My DIY external crossover was made so that each driver is independent of each driver. I thought that would be a nice add on. Ralph thought so also. Ralph told me that this Friday they will be playing my M-60’s. I’m hoping that means its at the last stage and will be shipped soon. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas! ozzy |
Well it seems that my used M-60's that are at Atmasphere getting updated to the current model did have the power supply upgrade and the V-Caps previously installed. However, the V-Caps were the tin foil version not the latest version with copper. So, I still decided to go with the latest copper version, but I asked for the tin foil caps to be returned with the unit. Looks like it won't be shipped out till next week. Darn... |
mdvuolo, I too have searched for info on the upgrades. What Ralph told me was that the best bang for the buck is the cap and power upgrades. The Caddock resistor upgrade is an improvement but rather costly compared to the other upgrades. ozzy |
swampwalker, I would have thought that the Merlin's would have worked well. I will be using (2) JL Audio F-113 subs crossed over at about 80hz. charles1dad, I know what you mean. Just to keep everything fair, I bought another (same) power cord, another amp stand (Grand Prix) then I had to buy new isolation pads for the stands for the lighter load. ozzy
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swampwalker, Thanks for the posting. My speakers are DIY so I only know the individual driver specs. I hope they are an easy load for the amps. ozzy |
Al, Thanks. I just got news that the used M-60's that I bought site unseen have arrived at Atmasphere for the 3.3, V Caps, power supply and extra binding posts (for Bi-wire) upgrades. So maybe in a week or two I'll be able to try them out. ozzy |
gdnrbob, Al, Thanks for the additional information. Looking at my Pass Labs X350.5 specifications, it lists power consumption at 600 watts temperature 53C. ozzy. |
atmasphere, Thanks for the comments. My Pass Labs amp is rated at 350 watts A/B rms per channel but I think it only puts out 30 watts in class A. Supposedly, once the meter starts to move it is leaving class A for class B. With my present DIY speakers, the needle does not budge, so I'm thinking I may be only using less than 30 watts. ozzy
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charles1dad, Thank you. In the end I am not rich and after a fair comparison period, I will sell off one of the amps. ozzy |
gdnrbob, Did you find the tube heat to be a problem? My Pass Labs Amp gets very hot to touch. I won't be touching the tubes but I wonder if I will have to listen in my skivvies with the M-60's 24 tubes. ozzy |
I just posted some more pictures of the DIY speakers and my final external crossover on my systems page. ozzy |
charles1dad, sbank, almarg, Thank you so much for the comments and with the information that you have provided. You guys are the greatest and I really appreciate the time and effort provided in your posts. Some more info. My final crossover point between the midwoofer and the tweeter is now 2000hz.@ 12db. This is based on trying to match the advantages of both of these drivers. I went to all Mundorf silver, gold, oil caps and Janzten foil inductors. I also ended up using Mundorf extreme resistors with fixed resistors points and not using the variable L-pad. (I will post new pictures in my systems page tonight.). And, I will redo my DEQX settings once everything is done and burned in a little. I am getting fairly good with the DEQX and have compiled some easier to follow operating instructions than what is provided from DEQX. Again, thank you for the help. ozzy |
bassdude, Thanks for the info. You really think I will need the Zero's if the M-60's will only need to power 80hz and above? sksos1, Can you comment on the V caps as to how many caps are involved, and what exactly is the Power boost upgrade? |
sksos1,gdnrbob, Thank you so much for your comments. So with my set up these Amps should work fairly well? My thinking is the Atma-Sphere M-60's will not have to power anything below 80hz and with my present 90db+ speakers they should work really well? Did either of you have the V cap and power supply upgrade? |
