Amplifier ideas with KEF Reference 1

Keoliphant,

We are a long time Kef Reference dealer and one of only 5 dealers in the entire country with almost every Kef product line represented, we have the Blades, Ref Ones, Ref Threes, Ref 5, R series, T series, Q Series, LS 50W, LS 50p, so we are very up on KEF.

The Ref 1 when paired with great electronics are mind blowing how real music can sound and they work well in a small room due to the bass tuning tubes and wide lateral dispersion of the Uni Q.

If you are looking for an exceptional amplifer in a small package that gives off little heat then the T+A 2500R might be your ticket.

The T+A gear is exceptional gear and their products are usually among the best sounding brands of gear out there.

 If you are not familiar with the brand T+A is the largest single high end company in Germany, with a full time staff of 110 employees and 14 full time engineers T+A has the resources to develop some really outstanding gear which is built up to German standards of superb craftsmanship and because of the companies large size they can afford economies of scale which enable them to use exceptional parts,  and still keep the pricing affordable. 

A unique aspect of the HV and R series is the High Voltage circuitry which runs solid state devices at much higher rail voltages which lowers distortion and helps create a more tube like sounding solid state product.

The larger HV 3000 a $18k integrated amplifier will most likely far outperform your PS audio gear, the PA 3000 HV was compared by Allan Tafel in the TAS to a $120k worth of CH Precision gear and he was having difficulty telling the difference.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ta-pa-3000-hv-and-mp-3000-hv/?page=3

here is the quote that got us to bring in the line:

"Similarly, the PA3000 not only competes directly with integrated amps that run all the way up to $50k, it holds its own against $120k worth of Switzerland’s best separates. This is a component that’s not to be missed.

But these HV models not only stand up to their Teutonic brethren, they sound just like them. What T+A has done is to make it possible for audiophiles of more modest (though still significant) resources to get in on the extraordinary build-quality, sonic merit and character, and sheer musical enjoyment of the Swiss School. And that is surely a promise fulfilled."

The PA 3000 runs warm not super hot, and is compact. The less expensive R series 2500 integrated at $11k offers much of the same sound but not quite as good as its bigger brother.

T+A is a bit hard to find currently we are the East Coast dealer NY/NJ but there are a handful of good dealers and more signing up.

We have run the Ref ones with the 2500R and was exceptional we have run the KEF Blades on the PA 3000 and the sound was truly magical.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Everest I don't think you have your facts straight, when does a $25k Bel Canto integrated amp compare to a $11k T+A  one, if you factor in the cost of a Dac 8 which is $15k for the combo not $25k! Even if you figure $3k for a good interconnect I get $18k not $25k!

The T+A PA 3000 at $18k would be the comparable piece, also with the DAC 8DSD for $4k you would still be a $22k, want to do that commparison vs the Bel Canto?

If you are comparing products a $25k one should be discussed with a similar set of other components at a somewhat similar price point.

Then we will have a fair horse race. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Everest could it also be sour grapes since T plus A dropped your dealership?

And with a Dac 8 how did u feed it? The Dac 8 running Quad rate Dsd sounds unbelievable running 16/44 it is good not magical.

Is the Bel Canto better maybe it is and maybe it isnt we havent heard a digital amp that sounds better then a pure class a/b amp and until we test it we wont pass judgement. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Caphill, we were a Devialet dealer and the sound quality just was never there, in some ways the Devialet was extraordinary, no noise, deep bass, big soundstage, the problem was always the product never had the musicallity that drew you into the experiece, the T+A was far superior when we tried a large list of amps/preamp combos on our Polymer Loudspeakers and then the Paradigm Personas, the T+A gear sounded better than the $60K CJ Art and Gat, the Manley Labs Snappers, the Electrcompaniet AW 400, the Devialet D400 Monoblocks, the Thrax gear, and finally the Chord SPM 1400 monoblocks and CPM 5000 preamp.

Also in terms of the Bel Canto being better than the T+A 2500R Dac 8 DSD combination, Everest did not setup the Dac 8 correctly you need to be running Roon or Jriver, and converting to Double rate or Quad Rate DSD which opens up the sound considerably, which is one reason we don't carry the Melco.  PCM on the Dac 8 is good, upsampled is way better and in the case of the Dac 8 the real magic is running the higher rate DSD which really creates a spooky 3d soundstage and a very analog like presentation.

The Bel Canto maybe fantastic but you should also be aware it does have its limitiations, one of which is everything is digitized including Analog signals, and two everything is converted to PCM.

We personally find that for certain products DSD sounds much more like analog but it does depend on the product.

So we would recommend that you compare the Bel Canto vs other similar packages and let the chips fly. 

Another thing to consider is how upgradable is the Bel Canto? 

We did check out the Bel Canto Black and it does seem like a very interesting piece, with the notable limitations as noted. 

The Naim Nova is a fantastic piece for the Kef Ref ones, and the upgraded NAC 272/250Dr is really impressive if you are looking for a more minimilist two box solution of amp with dac/preamp/streamer that will outperform the Nova,  Caphill is right on the money with the Nova, it is excellent and the package is great with the Ref Ones.

Whatever you choose look for a warm fuller sounding amp for the Ref Ones have very low levels of coloration and can benefit from a warmer sounding amplifier. 


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Georgehifi,

It isn't just a matter of current, it is a matter of voicing. Most modern amplifiers will have 0 problem pushing power into most impedances.

You take a very scientific approach our approach is via actual listening and considering we sell almost every KEF including the Blade, Ref One, Ref Three, Ref Five, Q, R, Series T, Series, Wireless, we know how and what works with a Kef.

If you look at two capable amplifiers into a load unless that speaker is pushing the stuffings out of the amplifier, most amplifers will sound great the difference is how the particular pairing will sound when used together. 

We did a similar demo today on the Elac Adante monitors, first using a 60watt Nad and then a 40 Watt Naim Atom. of course the $3.5k Naim Atom killed the $1,400.00 NAD and both amplfiers produced more than enough volume the difference was  the clarity of the Naim and the Naim's much tighter fuller bass and supeior macro dynamics, there was 0 strain with either amplifier.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Georgehifi,

Your posts speak of someone with theoritical knowledge.  Your example of a sample simulated load with Kantor's circuit is somewhat flawed as they also built in a zobel network into the load and a simlulated load may not take into accout the affects that the speaker cable would add to the load which is going to then affect those measurements as well. 

I also don't think that Stereophile uses simulated measurements any more either. 

I rember reading one of your posts on a loudspeaker that you said wouldn't sound good on anything other than a particular high powered solid state and yet we got fantastic results with a low powered tube amp.

So there is theoritical knowledge vs practical knowelege and experience which is what we do we experiment with different amplifiers on a set of speakers till we create the sound we find desirable. 

As per Caphill he is very correct the Naim Nova is fantastic it is practical, compact, warm and punchy, cool running with a fantastic app and it sounds wondeful on the Ref 1 a perfect office system, we show this very same combination in our shop the Naim's slightly warm rich presentation coupled with its punchy dynamic drive makes for a very musical engaging system. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Georgehifi I dont know what you look for you certaintly don't listen to these products.

We tested the Bel Canto Ref 600M amplfiers on a number of speakers when our neighbor Clement Perry of Stereotimes was reviewing these amps. The Ref 600 sounded like an Ice based digital amplifier, they were impressive with tight bass and great dyanmics, they sounded thin in the midrange and were not involving, a set of the Nuforce Ref 9SE V3 sounded way better to our ears.

We were a Luxman dealer and the Luxman stuff sounded excellent we were selling the Unison Research Unico 50 a $5k tube/solid state hybrid which tended to sound even warmer and more musical on most of our loudspeakers.

In fact you can see in our showroom tour all the integrated amplifiers we had on display at the time which included Hegel, Luxman, Coda, Norma, Naim, Devialet, Electrocompaniet, and a few others, they all sounded different on the same loudspeakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NPIn3pEmI4

We show the Ref Ones in a 18 by 14 foot room and they sound fantastic.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Insteresting finding George, we did listen to the older Bel Cantos.
However we have listened to numerous Hypex, and Ncore amps including a well respected $11k one and so far we havent found a single one yet that we would want to listen to long term, as well as sell. If you actually listen to these amps they are all clean but dont posses any magic in the midrange.

As per Everest your findings on the T plus A are suspect when you  have to match an integrated amp with a dac and cabling and you dont even know how to run a Dac 8 when all over Audiostreams review as well as Computer Audiophiles column on that Dac have all said that the Dac 8 sounds amazing in Quad Rate Dsd which requires a fast computer running Jriver

You run your dac 8 on a Melco which does not allow you to do upconversion or cross-convertsion  that, so your findings are somewhat suspect.

The Dac 8 sounds good on 16/44 but the real magic is running Quad rate DSD and there are very few files that are actually produced at this sampling level so Jriver processing is required.

Everest we would be more than happy to run one of our setups vs one of yours anyday if the Bel Canto Black is better we would sell it the fact that it digitizes analog signals and does not support native DSD is a major turn off.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Ken, you should listen to the Bel Canto Black gear it does seem very interesting, personally we aren't so keen on very expensive amplifiers that digitize analog and don't play DSD but the overall reviews and features are excellent, we may contact Bel Canto and see about becoming a dealer for the Black gear as it is perfect NYC rig. 

You may also want to check out the new Anthem STR gear which is less expensive and sounds extremely good, The amp and preamp/dac are $10k and offer the superb Anthem room correction system which may make an extraordinary difference in a small room with the Kef Ref 1. Anthem pictures the gear stacked so you may be able to save space that way. 

If you are ever on the East Coast for business, we have the Ref 1 in a room with many superb contentenders including the Naim Nova which is excellent with the Ref 1, we also have the Naim 272/250Dr which sound mindblowing on the Ref 1, we also have the Anthem Separates, and the T+A gear, we also have the Micromega M150 has room correction. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Everest they chose to do convert DSD to PCM as part of their design. Not necessarily the best way to really play DSD and just because you do MQA doesnt' mean you can't play those files back at Quad Rate DSD we do exactly that on our $35k Light Hamonic Davinci and boy does it beat standard 24/192k MQA files. 

This is one of the reasons why we thiink you really didn't experience the T+A Dac 8 DSD the absolute magic with that Dac is running everything as Quad rate DSD, a DAC like the DAC 8 gives the listener total control to play back DSD as DSD or PCM as PCM.

Personally never have been too keen on digitizing vinyl playback.

We will see about getting a sample of the Black EX as this piece might be as stated the perfect NYC apartment rig. We first tried that with Devialet and the Devialet although very impressive in many areas, never was musical enough for us to fall in love with the Devialet sound.

The new Hegel might also be a very nice contender. We have so far found real magic with the KEF's with the Naim and T+A gear. 

Everest we have one up on you on that one we are one of the very few dealers in the country to display the entire KEF line, we have Ref 1, Ref 3, Ref 5, Blades, and our Ref 3 are in a full Atmos KEF theater which rocks. 

We know that you didn't carry the higher end T+A gear which is a pitty the HV gear is amazing you might just prefer it over the Black, however, the simplicity of the Black might be very appealing to some people. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ, Dealer for KEF, T+A, Naim, etc

Keliophant, what cables and power conditoning are you using with your Hegel? Your treble thiness might be from your cabling, power, or room acoustics.

Are you using Roon? Have you tried converting PCM to DSD playback if the Hegel will allow for that?

Are you using a stock ethernet cable? We have found very noticable improvements with Wireworlds Etherent cables. 

Power cables also really matter. The new Audioquest line is really good.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

We have mixed feelings on the Hegel, Keoliphant finds the treble a bit thin so we are wondering what is causing that? We had a demo earlier in the year of the Hegel 190 and the Nuprime STA 9 combo with the Nad C658 dac/preamp far outperformed it for the same money. 

The new 390 is supposed to sound great.

As per Darko's video, on the Hegel/Ref 1  although we often respect his opinions he liked the Kii speakers and we really don't like them at all so it is hard to tell if this combo sounds great or just better than the Kii or are there other similarly priced amplifiers that will offer the great bass of the Hegel amplifier with other qualities.

When we had the older Hegel series  we found that the Luxman and the Unision Research or Coda CS ib intergrated amplifiers were often chossen over the Hegel in our shootouts at the shop. 

At one time we had the Hegel, Luxman, Coda, Unison Reseach, Naim and Devialet integrated amplifiers all in the 

The other point is that the OP made is that Kef often shows with Hegel, that may be more of a corporate decision than the sonic one, many times these pairing occurs because of a corporate relationship rather than through rigorous testing of lots of other components.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Good to hear that, Keoliphant you should consider upgrading to a real server and a higher end usb cable and your system will sound way better.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Add an Innuos Phonix reclocker to your laptop done.


Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ innuos dealers