Great idea's.
1. Synergistic Research Powercell 10se MKII and the Cary will not work if it plugged into it or not.
2. The Cary will not work if it has all the speaker and interconnects attached or even if all the cables are not attached. As a matter of reference all of my interconnects and speaker cables are Crystal Cable Micro's.
3. I am using a 20 amp Maestro outlet.
Any other thoughts? |
Metro04 - First off thank you very much for your insight. I had my friend who is knowledgeable about power test the lines and he confirmed that the polarity is correct vs. the small and large slots. He also noted that none of my outlets in my apartment are wired to ground it seems the ground is left to the junction boxes alone.
Where to go from here? |
I plugged the Cary amp directly into the 20 amp branch circuit; with and without interconnects and with and without speaker cables. Nothing else was plugged in to the branch. The 15amp circuit breaker (which is the on off switch for the amp) blows after 20seconds.
When I attached the 50' extension cord it only goes to the Amp and it works. Nothing else was attached to the extension cord and it worlks when all my other audio gear is plugged in as well. |
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"Is the breaker a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) or an AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter)? These type of breakers have a test trip push button on them."
There are no test trip buttons on any of the circuit breakers in the breaker panel.
"As for the circuit breaker used on the Cary.... Is the switch actually a breaker? The handle trips position and has to be reset? If it is indeed a breaker the more times it is tripped the weaker it becomes."
Yes it is an actual breaker as the switch has to be switched back on to put the unit back into standby. I have had it replaced to no avail.
"By chance does your friend have a clamp on amprobe so you could measure the inrush current draw of the amp on startup?
"
He did use one yesterday I have forgotten the outcome and will ask him tomorrow.
I do live in a high rise and my building said and I quote "as long as the breaker is not tripping then we do not concider you to have a problem." So much for living in a "luxury building". |
Love the colored cable idea! Not sure if I can get that by the wife factor!!!
Can you give me an idea of line conditioners vs the Syngergistic Research Telsa Powercell that i have? What do I look for in a line conditioner? |
I just spoke with my friend who works for the power company and we agreed on the following:
1. Regardless of the problem with my buildings power we know they will not fix it.
2. It seems to me that some type of power regenerator is needed.
3. What do you recommend that just has one input and one output?
4. Should I go digital or analogue?
Thanks again for all your help!
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Thank you for reminding me of proper trouble shooting techniques. Last night I had one to many and when my friend and I got around to dealing with this issue we both just said screw it just purchase a regenerator. And we went back to drinking. LOL.
Moving forward instead of referring to my friend as the guy who works for the power company I will use his first name which is Ken.
Back to the problem:
1. I uncoiled the extension cord and the Cary powered on without a problem. So it works both coiled and uncoiled.
2. The 50’ extension cord has the following information imprinted on the jacket 16/3. I assume that means 16 gauge times three wires. The jacket diameter is 5/16”. I’d have to cut the cord to get the actual gauge of the wire.
3. I have tried it with shorter extension cords from 3 feet to 20 feet with approximately the same diameter and it does not work.
“I ask because of the test you performed where just as the breaker tripped you notice the voltage dipped from 118V to 112V. The VD, voltage drop, was due to a spike in current. Was it the protection relay switching in the Cary amp?”
4. Not sure what you are asking the 15amp breaker which is the on/off switch for the breaker trips it to the off position when I noticed this drop. Remember this happends after i go from standby mode to Active mode.
"Does it mean that the safety ground pin on the outlets is not connected to anything, so that the safety ground pin on the amplifier's power plug is not connected to ground through the power wiring? If so, that would be number 1 on my list of things to focus on in relation to the problem. It would also be a serious code violation and a serious safety hazard.”
5. Ken confirmed that all of my outlets in the apartment are grounding directly to metal wall boxes and conduit by design - negating the need for ground wiring including the circuit breaker box.
"I'd really like *him* to re-check the voltage from the outlet's LINE (smaller slot), to the GROUND pin and report the voltage. He's previously stated there's no stray voltage between the NEUTRAL and GROUND, so I'd like him to check for "resistance" between the outlet's NEUTRAL (larger slot)and GROUND if able."
6. Voltage from the “smaller" slot to the "ground" slot is 118 volts.
7. Resistance (Using the Omega setting on the volt meter) between Neutral (Large Slot) and Ground slot jumps between 13 and 17 units.
"To rule any chance of noise on the safety equipment ground I would think, for test purposes, a ground cheater could be installed on the power cord of the Cary Amp. With the problem the OP is having, unique only with his apartment, proper shutdown and power up could just be enough for the breaker to hold."
8. I tied a ground cheater plug with the stock power cord and the problem occurred.
"I would recommend the OP power up the amp with the 50' extension cord power off by putting the amp in "standby" first then turn off the switch/breaker. Remove the 50' cord and plug the amp directly into the wall receptacle. Wait at least 5 minutes to power up the amp again. (Power supply caps should be bled off by then?) I would then turn on the switch/breaker and see what happens. Hopefully the 20 second timeline will pass with no breaker trip event. If the breaker does not trip, fingers crossed, I would not get in any big hurry to push the power button on the front of the amp that starts the sequence to power up the amp in the "Active Mode". Wait at least a few minutes or so."
9. The breaker only trips after I take the unit out of standby mode and put it into “Active Mode”. I am powering the amp in the following manner. I first turn the circuit breaker switch from the off position to the on position. I then press the button on the front of the unit which takes it out to standby mode into the Active Mode”. Without the extension cord the 15 amp ON OFF circuit breaker switch on the back of the unit trips to the off position. After it switched to the off position I put the unit back into standby mode (pressing the front button to standby) and start the process over again. Not sure if your reccomendation is valid.
"Sailcappy, is there any chance that you can borrow a different conditioner from someone? Also, if by any chance you know someone who has an oscilloscope, and is knowledgeable about how to use it, a good experiment would be to view the AC waveform on it, and set it to trigger at a level a little higher than the nominal peak of the AC waveform (which is around 170 volts). Then see if it triggers, and what it captures if it does trigger."
10. Ken is working on getting a oscilloscope to test
11. I don’t know anyone in NYC to borrow a different power conditioner. I will ask a dealer to see if they will assist. |
To be very, very clear I will detail my power up process which is the same with and without the extension cord.
1. Prior to doing anything I check that the rear breaker On/Off switch is set to the off position and the front Standby/Active switch is set to the Standby position.
2. I then push the rear breaker On/Off switch to the On position.
3. I generally wait a little (I have varied the waiting time up to an hour) then I push the front Standby/Active button from Standby to Active.
4. I hear a lot of relay type clicking noises and the approx 20 seconds later if I do not use the extension cord the final click inside the amp trips the rear breaker On/Off switch to the Off position.
5. I then repeat this process every time I re-power the unit.
6. Music does not play during the first 20 seconds. When I use the extension cord after 20 seconds I get a final click that then allows music to play. It also turns on the LED light for the Cary Logo. |
Getting back to the ground issue:
I have a great ground on my apartment terrace. It is a lightning rod building ground cable. I assume you can't get any better ground than that. Since the ground for all my outlets is through the conduit and outlet boxes should I somehow attach a wire from the lightning rod ground to the outlet box or green connector on the outlet? Not quite sure from earlier posts what I was supposed to test.
Thanks! |
Are you saying the front power switch is a maintained contact switch and not a momentary contact switch? In other words the push button switch has two positions, in and out? • The front switch has two positions (though very subtle) either pushed in for Active or out for Standby. • With the extension cord attached the rear On/Off breaker remains in the On position. My current operation (again with extension cord attached) is to only to change the unit from Standby to Active and visa versa when I want to listen to music or not. I never touch the rear circuit breaker On/Off Switch I leave it in the On position. Have you thought about sending the Agon Link of this thread of yours to Cary service support? • I will send it to them and I have been keeping them in the loop with no feedback as of late. The reason I ask is your friend qualified, confident, to perform work inside the electrical panel of your apartment? Nothing major.... Just move the hot conductor of the audio 20 amp dedicated circuit to another 20 amp breaker on the other Line, leg, bus in the electrical panel. (Providing there are any spares. If there is not a spare he could use a breaker that is being used, for the test.) • He said all the wires are live coming in to the breaker box and it is not a good idea to switch them as there is no way to kill the current coming into the box. Turn off ever breaker at the electrical panel except the main breaker, if you have one, and the breaker that feeds the dedicated circuit to the Cary amp. • I turned off all circuit breakers and unplugged everything I could physically remove from every outlet in the apartment so that just the Cary was plugged into the wall without the extension cord. The Cary On/Off breaker blew as usual after 20 seconds after I went from Standby to Active mode. I would sure like to know what the VD, voltage drop, looks like at the end of the 50' 16/3 cord as the Cary amp is going through its active start up cycle...... Especially that last relay click you hear • I attached a three way strip I had lying around into the end of the extension cord. I then plugged the Cary into one of the sockets and the voltage meter into the other. • When turn the circuit breaker from Off to On the voltage at the end of the extension cord does not change. It remains at 118 volts. When I press the front button from Standby to Active the voltage remains at 118 volts for the 20 second duration. At that last relay click (at about 20 seconds) the voltage dropped from 118 volts down to 115 volts for split second and then back up to 118 volts. Is the AC cord plugged in on the same side of the line as the preamp and front end of the system? • All of these tests are performed with just the Cary plugged into the outlet and nothing else. |
Not quite sure what you mean. How do i do that? |
Just curious is the multi meter voltage section reading true RMS? Yes it reads true RMS. |
Sailcappy, is that correct? A 15 amp breaker? IF 15 amp, during the test, did the 15 amp branch circuit breaker ever trip? Not counting the two breakers for the environmental conditioners; there are two 20 amp breakers, and three 15 amp breakers. I have tried the unit on all 5 of these circuits and the Cary still tripped after 20 seconds. The breakers in the main circuit breaker box never tripped. |
Not quite sure what the suggestions are at this point. I have decided to purchase a DC Blocker from Gbart on Audiogon. He has graciously offered to build me one. It should be ready next week. I will up date you after it are installed.
Is the Brick Wall Surge protector something that should be installed prior to the SR Power cell or just after the SR Power Cell and the Cary? Right now I have two plugs on my outlet one goes to the SR Powercell (which has my OPPO, Theta Pre-Pro, 2 Red Dragons, Runco and Sonos) and the other goes to the JL Sub.
Thanks again. |
Currently I have a dual outlet connected to a 20amp circuit. That circuit is shared by one other outlet in my apartment. I plug the SR Powercell into one of the slots and my JL sub into the other one. All my other equipment is plugged into the SR Powercell.
My plan is to first keep the same power path for everything and put the DC blocker between the SR Powercell and the Cary Amp. I might also try to put it between the SR Powercell and the wall outlet. Stray DC should be bad for all my other components, right?
If all this fails I will then sell this DC blocker to anyone who wants it on AG. I will then try the Brick Wall and play with the same signal paths as the DC Blocker.
Does this sound like a plan?
Ken is gone on vacation for a few weeks so I will try these solutions as they are not a real budget buster. If they don't work I can always sell them.
Finally if none of these suggestions work I will try to work with someone who can help me re-configure the current 15 amp circuit breaker with something that is less sensitive to inrush current. It will probably void my Cary warrantee but I can’t have this extension cord in my living room anymore. |
When the problem first occurred Cary sent me a new circuit breaker which is the ON/OFF power switch. I installed it which was easy to do. The problem is not with the breaker being defective. Remember it works fine at Ken's place of work.
My updated plan is to:
1. Try the DC Blocker if that does not work....
2. Try the Brick Wall if that works I will replace the SR Powercell with the Brick Wall.
3. If the Brick Wall does not work then I am at a loss. |
Again I can not thank all of you enough for your trouble shooting ideas. No updates to report as of now.
As far as the SR PowerCell is concerned
1. It is not a Surge Protector
2. It does not have a Transformer
3. It does not treat for harmonic distortions.
4. All I can get out of SR is that the unit uses a EM Cell to filter AC.
DC eliminator should be ready by Friday. |
I had GBART make me a DC Blocker and plugged it in and it did not solve my problem. I will say that GBART created a beautiful box for me. Really good quality. I highly reccomend him if you have DC Blocking needs. BTW mine is now for sale as I do not have DC issues with my line. Check it out under DYI.
On to the Brick Wall. More info to come. |
Do you mean use a cheater plug? I tried that and it does not work. |
Should I put shorting RCA's on all seven of the inputs? What do i do with the XLR's?
Sailcappy |
Installed the Brick Wall today and it did not solve the problem.
I guess Ken and his Oscilloscope is the only solution. |
I agree. They will not give me my money back. They are willing to send me a new one. Do you think it is worth a try? |
When i get the Oscilloscopes what should I be looking for? Is there a setting I should use?
I am betting that once we find the real problem with my ececticity a real solution could be found. |
For the hell of it I tried a grounding adapter (cheater plug) and grounded it to the Circuit Breaker box, kitchen metal water pipe and to my outside lighting rod grounding wire. Same problem so it is not a ground issue as we all agreed.
Just keep trying things until I can get someone to look at my electric. |
I will try to plug the unit into another outlet in the building. Belive it or not in the hall the outlets are twisted types so I can not use them. I am also looking into purchasing the Purepower 2000 which is an AC regenerator to try to solve my problem. If that works I will sell my SR Powercell.
No word on the O scope from Ken as of yet. The saga continues. |
I have a PurePower 2000 Regenerator arriving at my home on Monday. Will install it on Tuesday and report. |
Well that did it. The PurePower 2000 regenerator fixed the problem. I no longer need the 50' extension cord. I am guessing it was harmonics since the PP2000 creates a new AC current that is clean. Still not sure what was wrong and i guess unless I want to pay an electrician (which i do not) I will never know. I have a solution and that is all i care about right now.
Thanks to all for you help and assistance. |
Thank you again for your suggestions! I am being extremely systematic and it never hurts to hear that over again:)
• I have tried two different power cords, the polarity on both of the power cords is correct
• The outlet polarity is correct. I have tried 4 different circuits in my apartment and the problem still occurs.
• I tried with and without speaker cables including lamp cord.
• It seems that none of my outlets have separate ground wires. I will call Cary today to discuss.
• Remember the unit works perfectly with a 50’ extension cord attached. WHY OH WHY does this work?
• My gut tells me that somehow I am getting dirty (do you love my technical term) electricity which causes the Cary to feedback and trip the 15amp circuit breaker. Remember the circuit breaker trips after 20 second after the unit is powered on.
To be continued…… |
Jea48 - I can not thank you enough for your help.
1. No markings on breaker box at all. Building built in the 1970's
2. Outlet is about 40' from breaker box.
3. I was incorrect, there are 4 outlets on the branch but nothing is plugged into them.
4. The White and Black wires connected to the circuit breaker seem to be 10 guage.
5. I plugged the volt meter into the unused receptical next to the one the Cary was pluged into. With nothing else going on the voltage goes from 117.9 to 118.1. When I switched the Cary on the voltage did not change. Nor did it change during the 20 seconds it takes for the 15amp Cary breaker to trip. However when the breaker did trip for a split second the votage meter read 112 volts. I was able to re-create the same readings after 4 tries.
This is my friends theory. He works for the local power company. Let me know your thoughts.
"The breaker is a thermo-magnetic breaker and I think when the amp relays click off after it is done charging the caps, the break in load (which is not a smooth wave either) is sending a fluctuation back out on the incoming power that is causing the breaker to think there is an over current and trip. You should talk with Cary, but the solution may be to use a thermal breaker rather than one that is operated magnetically. The fact that the extension cord solves the problem supports this theory. The extension cord acts like a filter so when the amp relays open, it resists any power fluctuations on the line and therefore limits the magnetic field created on the breaker tripping mechanism."
I just want to listen to music :) |
