Cappy, *maybe* your grounding situation could be the culprit, though since I lack any knowledge regarding Cary's circuits, it might be worth a quick phone call to them for verification.
The only other thing I can think of is that your power cord might be wired backwards (if removable). I assume you've tried swapping it out with one or two other replacements as wiring mistakes do happen whether hi-end or cheap molded variants. Lots of equipment can still operate if reversed, but some circuit designs may take issue.
Also, since you haven't confirmed my question pertaining to your Cary being powered up with *no* input or speakers cables attached, have you tried powering it up with *only* speakers connected (no inputs)? Have you tried swapping speakers and speaker cables - independantly - just for troubleshooting sake (even using cheap speakers and lamp cord)? Note: The amp may not operate without speakers connected, and may trip off as well. See the operation manual for any warnings regarding operation without speakers connected.
Final advice; Be as systematic as possible while troubleshooting, change only one item at a time, and don't *assume* anything. After that, if you're *absolutely* sure every thing's wired correctly (including your AC), and Cary states your grounding configuration doesn't pose an issue, maybe someone else may have additional experience regarding acceptable DC percentages, if present.
In touch, |
Hi 'Cappy.
Just to confirm; you're stating that the Cary still shuts down after 20 seconds without *any* cables connected except the power cord? If so, please bare with me with the following request:
Can you please re-confirm that your wall outlet(s) are wired and grounded correctly. You stated you're getting 118 volts between the HOT (smaller slot) and NEUTRAL (larger slot), and no stray voltage between the NEUTRAL and GROUND. Assuming your smaller slot is wired HOT, measure the voltage between it and the GROUND. If your apartment is wired correctly within the breaker box, you should read the same 118 volts as well since the NEUTRAL and GROUND should be connected together within the breaker box in most areas (I believe). *Some* equipment topologies require a properly polarized and grounded source to operate, hence, not to assume all is right even though other equipment designs will operate.
Please advise, |
Well, I'm out of ideas without being there - armed with test equipment. The fact that it works at Cary, and your friend's location(s), without the addition of extra impedance (wire length), clearly indicates some thing's up with your apartment wiring, or induced noise.
08-14-12: Sailcappy
"He also noted that none of my outlets in my apartment are wired to ground it seems the ground is left to the junction boxes alone."
By that, I assume your outlets and junction boxes are grounded via metal conduit per local code? I'd have a warmer fuzzy if I knew the LINE/NEUTRAL voltage or resistance, and would still contact Cary to enquire about any grounding sensitivity issues with their circuits. As far as the level of noise it would take to cause your situation, is most intriguing.
The fact that numerous people suggested adding a 50' extension cord is interesting as well.
Besides Jea48, maybe member "Almarg" could offer some suggestions.
If you do get it resolved, be sure to post your findings.
Good luck
|
Hmmm, as you stated, it acts the same way from your 15 amp circuit as well as your dedicated 20 amp, yet works fine at Cary and your friends location(s) without the extension cord - when considering your friend's theory.
Jea48: As you know, "inrush" current is typically instantanious - with PS filter caps charged to 95+% within a few seconds, or so, for most high-power amps. Note he's stating the breaker consistantly trips "after 20 seconds", and even from several of his apartment's pre-wired standard 15 amp outlets. His recent noted voltage drop to 112, only at the moment of trip, is curious. For a thermo-magnetic breaker, you'd expect to see sustained high current voltage drop right up until tripping vs the virtually unaffected static 118 - as if the power supply wasn't even pulling current (?).
I just took a look at Cary's online PDF Owners Manual for anything of interest and there's not much to assist.
http://www.caryaudio.com/pdfs/manuals_2012/Model7.250_manual.pdf |
Cappy, I completely forgot about you mentioning the Cary still tripping when connected to your Syngergistic Research (line conditioner) back on 8/13, as Jea48 just recalled. So now I'm at a loss, and baffled further.
Like Jea48, I was going to ask if your friend was able to diagnose your AC health with more appropriate equipment to find out exactly what's going. That's really what needs to happen. Not that you couldn't hide the coiled extention cord in cosmetic, WAF-approved packaging - complete with a fancier output receptacle if desired. (marketing idea)
I guess I'm out of ideas for now, unless it's still ground-related, but will continue to loose a percentage of sleep each night until it's resolved.
~ |
Al, thanks for stopping by.
Early on, I've tried to get as much confirmation from the OP regarding his outlet wiring and grounding, and based on his two responses pertaining to his friend's testing/confirming, responded with an assumption that his outlets were grounding directly to metal wall boxes and conduit by design - negating the need for ground wiring - pending local codes (not confirmed by OP). Again, based on his knowledgeable friend's testing, can only "assume" satisfactory measurements were observed on all aspects, and though I still don't have a warm fuzzy, didn’t wish to dwell further.
I also assumed his friend owned the meter, early on, leaving the OP unable to do spontaneous additional testing if requested. Appears he does, and I'd really like *him* to re-check the voltage from the outlet's LINE (smaller slot), to the GROUND pin and report the voltage. He's previously stated there's no stray voltage between the NEUTRAL and GROUND, so I'd like him to check for "resistance" between the outlet's NEUTRAL (larger slot) and GROUND if able.
If all is up-n-up, I assumed his SR conditioner would have taken dealt with any line noise issues, so... (scratching remaining hairs)
Frank |
Look! Every time I get close to addressing and finishing a few paragraphs in response, all you guys quickly sneak in answers and more questions! So, I'll just sit patiently in the corner with a "filthy bed-wetter" sign on and wait fer a bit. :-D
Now, how the hell are you guys (Jim & Al) quoting in small font?
Frank |
Cappy, I was under the impression that Brick Wall was merely *another* recommendation for your Cary's situation, just like the DC blocker, and to be used solely with the Cary *if* either device resolved its power-up problem. I would continue to use the SR for everything else, excluding the sub.
Where will the Cary be located vs. all of your other upstream equipment? Was *everything* intended to run off the new 20 amp circuit (amp, sub, pre/proc, etc)? Just trying to envision your layout.
I'm surprised you're not waiting for your friend Ken to test the AC with an O-scope rather than gamble on money spent that may not address the Cary's issue. To Ralph's point about slowing down the inrush current, regarding a sensitive mag-breaker, I would have thought the SR would've provided some amount by design, including some level of DC blocking, though unsure about the DC.
See what the DC blocker does first, when feeding the Cary directly, since you bought it already.
Frank |
First off, Sailcappy, I (we) appreciate your patience and cooperation with all the requests from "The Brain Trust" (SCRUBS). Other than Jim's latest request(s) below, and based on what’s been tried and confirmed so far, I think we all will agree that an oscilloscope would be beneficial/essential at this juncture to diagnose mutually-suggested D.C. and noise suspicions, of which you mentioned that your friend, who works for the power company (aka;” Ken”), was trying to obtain one. 08-22-12: Jea48 “…Just move the hot conductor of the audio 20 amp dedicated circuit to another 20 amp breaker on the other Line, leg, bus in the electrical panel. (Providing there are any spares. If there is not a spare he could use a breaker that is being used, for the test.” and... ”I would sure like to know what the VD, voltage drop, looks like at the end of the 50' 16/3 cord as the Cary amp is going through its active start up cycle...... Especially that last relay click you hear.” Jim, wouldn’t his other “standard 15 amp” outlets, throughout the apartment, be split up between the two incoming legs? He has tried, unsuccessfully, to energize the amp from various 15 amp locations around the apartment, though it isn’t known how they are split up. Frank PS; Thanks Jim/Al for the "quoting" assistance. I'll take my sign off. |
08-23-12: Jea48 “I would think both toroidal transformers would have to be the first items powered up on the amp along with the DC power supplies long before that last click is heard.....
I mean the active sequence start up circuitry needs DC power to go through its functions. I have no idea what that last click, relay is doing....“ I would speculate that the standby circuit is merely a passive or solid state design (no transformer) to minimize idle/standby current - fed after the magnetic breaker, which then feeds the delayed progressive interlock power-up circuits, which then controls the toroid’s power relays where any “soft start” circuitry might be interfaced, or something along those lines. “I was surprised by the voltage load test readings Sailcappy measured at the end of the 50' 16/3 cord with the amp connected. No load 118V and through the whole active start up sequence the voltage only dropped 3 volts! Granted the impedance of the 50' cord would limit inrush current..... I still would have thought the VD would have been more than 3 volts. I mean we are talking about a 7 channel power amp rated at 250 watts @8 ohms each channel.” I would have expected a larger dip as well unless it *was* slightly larger, but the refresh-rate of the meter was too slow in conjunction with a very short soft-start period (milliseconds). Granted, all outputs were unloaded, but the size those two toroid’s KVA rating would commend a substantial inrush without a soft-start. Orrrrrr, I'm betting because the mag-breaker tripped before the meter read the actual larger voltage drop. Which now gets to Ralph’s speculation regarding the mag-breaker’s condition. If we knew what the typical (unloaded) inrush current was after the 20 second delay, within an ideal supplied AC scenario, we would have a better idea how close we’re getting to a *healthy* breaker’s 15 amp trip threshold vs. sailcappy’s suspect breaker. Frank |
"Hi Frank, The magnetic breaker doesn't trip when the 50' 16/3 cord is used." Uhhhh, yeeeaaah.... I was just seeing if you were paying attention. LOL! Seems I get these A.D.D. attacks more frequently ever since upping my Cialis treatment from a PEZ dispenser, to one of those cranial-sported gravity drip-feeder apparatuses. The T.V. adds make it look so harmless. The fact that a co-worker walked in on me wearing a L'il Bo Peep outfit, while typing, may have affected my train of thought as well. No excuses... Just sayin' Frank |
08-15-12: Sailcappy
I have had it replaced to no avail. I *thought* I'd read someone mentioning the breaker was replaced, but couldn't confirm yesterday when quickly going back through the posts, so I wasn't 100% sure and am entertaining Ralph's (Atmasphere) concern considering the breaker's accumulative set/trip cycles, *if* it was still the original. Also, based on first-hand experiences, have had to replace numerous "new" components after immediate or delayed faulty operation, especially regarding a device unintended for elevated repetitive mechanical cycling. Regarding the amp working at other locations (which I've always taken into consideration), Ralph posted some scenario possibilities that may allow a deteriorating breaker to continue functioning, and I agree is possible. Lacking any witness confirmation, or actually being there to assure apple-to-apple testing/comparisons, all we can do is speculate. He is quite knowledgeable, as with Al and Jim. We all come from decades of professional backgrounds in various electronics fields and offer legitimate suggestions based on scenarios and probabilities we've encountered over the years. All of us would *prefer* to be there - armed with appropriate test equipment - able to make better determinations. That's what I do for a living. So, lacking factual data, all one can do is suggest trying different things with hopes of resolvement. Your updated plan is fine if unwilling to wait for Ken to return and 'scope your AC (the best *practical* option to minimize guessing). If the two devices fail to resolve, either keep or sell them, and take my joking recommendation to neatly coil-stack an appropriately rated ext cord and hide it out of sight behind other equipment, rack/furniture, etc., or package it cosmetically. You're planning to power the Cary from the conditioner, so, will *all* of the electronics be accumulated in one location near the 20 amp outlet? ...On a vertical rack, shelves, table-top, etc. - thus able to hide a majority of a coiled flat or stacked (black) ext cord? If the Brick Wall works, it's not very WAF either, so how would you address that vs. a "shaped" ext cord, if the BW doesn't work. I can't envision a scenario where the cord couldn't be hidden or repackaged cosmetically, even if the amp is remoted across the room. It still requires a cord that has to plugged *somewhere*, and you plan to feed it from the SR conditioner. Describe your equipment layout if otherwise. Again, if we *knew* exactly what was wrong (if anything) with your AC, if not equipment related, could better diagnose and recommend specific cures. |
Cappy, at this juncture, based on all the info you've responded with, I'll have to agree with Slikric3000's recommendation for a "line conditioner" or filtering. It's obvious the 50 foot extension cord is providing just enough filtering of noise to prevent your Cary from tripping, and based on the amount a 50 foot cord is accomplishing, you won't need much of a conditioner or filter providing you meet/exceed your amp's maximum current demands, which I couldn't locate in the owners manual.
You might also be interested in getting something for the upstream sources and preamp/processor since they would benefit the most from cleaner/stable AC. I don't have any experience with them, but you can search the Audiogon forums or other sources since I've seen this topic come up periodically regarding manufactures/models/types.
If you knew exactly what issues were plaguing your AC, you could better select what filtering topology is best suited (cost effective), then buy/treat it accordingly as there are simple products available for a fraction of cost consumer-targeted A/V types, but whatever fits your likings and wallet depth. There's quite a few manufactures making LC's; some with strictly-business cosmetics, some quite fancy with eye-candy appeal, and variances in between. Or, for a truly cost-effective option, find a high-wattage 50 ft. extention cord of color choice, coil-stack it neatly in a 8-10" diameter with cable-ties to retain shape, and hide it out of sight behind the amp. The coilded stack will even provide a higher lever of filtering. Done! Solved! (joking)
Keep us posted...
|
08-18-12: Metro04 "I'd really like *him* to re-check the voltage from the outlet's LINE (smaller slot), to the GROUND pin and report the voltage. He's previously stated there's no stray voltage between the NEUTRAL and GROUND, so I'd like him to check for "resistance" between the outlet's NEUTRAL (larger slot)and GROUND if able." 08-21-12: Sailcappy “6. Voltage from the “smaller" slot to the "ground" slot is 118 volts.
7. Resistance (Using the Omega setting on the volt meter) between Neutral (Large Slot) and Ground slot jumps between 13 and 17 units.” 08-22-12: Atmasphere “The lack of AC grounds in the wiring is disturbing, but it should not cause any troubles with the amp. Atmasphere, This was something I pushed to verify - lacking any knowledge of Cary’s circuit topologies - and *can* be of issue with some equipment designs (audio equipment aside). Sailcappy’s stated measurement of 13-17 ohms seems a tad bit high for 10 AWG, but based on the Neutral wire’s length alone, and various metal conduit mechanical connections, might be expected. Really don’t know for absolute if that amount of resistance poses an issue for that *particular* amp. |
08-24-12: Atmasphere
"Sailcappy, I am really sold on the idea that the breaker is at fault. Have you been using it as a power switch? Or is the amplifier designed with it being the power switch?" Based on the mag-breaker's rear location, the amp's remote-trigger feature, and front-actuated Power/Standby pushbutton switch, it's intended as an "actuate-and-leave it" protection device. Although, with all his troubleshooting prior to and well after Cary's diagnostic testing, that particular mag-breaker has probably been subjected to several dozens of set/trip cycles. Certain internal electro-mechanical aspects could be deteriorating, though lacking the component's specs/data information, and additional dianostic measurements, it's an educated assertion - something most experienced techs would investigate in any applicable field of electronics. If the two filter options fail to resolve your issue, I wonder if Cary would sell you a replacement breaker. Is your skillset up to changing that component (which *should* be a breeze), or maybe your friend could do it rather than sending the amp back? Even if Cary won't sell you one, the component's mfr info/PN is probably still available on the breaker's body once it's accessed within the amp (possibly by removing the bottom panel) - thus likely availability unless a custom-spec'd option. Frank |
"09-11-12: Atmasphere
Switch mode supply??! I figured this thing had a big toroid..." They appear be two large toroids. If not, they would be the largest SM "inductors" I've ever seen for fairly moderate current demands of this nature, and I believe their distance and wire lengths would be of issue in a SMPS as well. If we could see what’s under the amp’s internal/central panel, I’d expect to see a bank of large electrolytics for a linear PS. "So what is the outlet voltage while the amp and the cord are doing their thing? Bet it does not drop as much." I can't recall if a measurement was taken at the outlet WITH the 50 Ft ext cord incorporated, but without it, the voltage dropped from 118 to 112 at the same outlet right when the mag breaker tripped. "Based on that I would replace the AC receptacle, and make sure the screws on the receptacle are tight! Note: The amp trips exactly the same way via 4 or 5 other outlet locations within his apartment per sailcappy. "It would be a really good idea to see how this amp behaves in another apartment in the same building..." I concur, as Jim and his EE friend has suggested, though not yet not tested by sailcappy. I recall Jim even suggesting he try to locate a service outlet outside or between apartments (if a cooperative neighbor wasn’t available). Frank |
