I stand corrected. I was told by a Rowland dealer yesterday that the 625 S2 now employs the Ncore. I was surprised but took it for gospel as it came from a dealer I trust. Looks like a nice unit either way. |
It is funny. For most of us, it's a very personal thing to sit isolated and pensive, absorbed in our sonic bliss. Yes we all enjoy sharing our passion for both the gear and the music with like minded folk. But since we congress via forum we have no geographic ties and only occasionally have the opportunity to truly share what we discuss. I guess that's what makes the shows nice, we are willing to travel for them sometimes and can sometimes meet and listen together; typically with a great glass of wine. It's infrequent, but wonderful when it happens. The local clubs do offer a more frequent interaction. But my life style, children's age, and wife demands limit my ability to be more frequently involved in that, sadly. |
Alright. So, instead of spending a few late hours last night comparing the Antipodes DX to my Mac Mini, I spent my time in the hospital sewing up a few unfortunate soles. I got about 3 songs in before I got paged.
A good friend compared his PC Laptop server (unmodified) to the DX and felt the DX gave up a bit in low frequency extension and truncated trailing edges. He also said the differences were very subtle and opted to stay with his multi-functional and inexpensive laptop as a source.
Abe, I am curious as to what you found the advantages of the DX over the Mac mini were. My first impressions are subtle differences, nothing staggeringly better with the DX. Since I only compared 2 songs it's hard to hang my hat on those impressions, but the DX does have better staging and dimensionality, a tiny bit more "analog" sound. But I agree with my friend that with the DX there MAY be a very subtle loss of low frequency impact and dynamic scale (although in my 2 song comparison it could have simply been the power of suggestion). I admit that it could, and may very likely be, that the DX's representation of those low frequencies is simply less distorted and more accurate, and the Mini is providing a touch of hyperbole. I did not notice a loss of edge detail, but I didn't get to the songs I can more easily hear that on. As Scotty from Star Trek says, "I need more time"
The Allnic D5000 was replaced with one with new tubes and I'll get to it this weekend. I have an Emmlabs Dac2x arriving today. And I have secured access to a well burned in Aesthetix Romulus Signature. And the MBS DAC V with quad usb will be arriving with its specially made power conditioner after RMAF. Other then the infamous Golden Gate, the CAD, Rockna and TotalDAC I will have heard everything else I wanted to. Let's see where this crazy ride will lead us!
Oh, and I guess I do need to decide which speakers are my keepers. I'll keep the suspense running for now.
Finally, my neighbor has decided to go for the Berkeley Reference DAC and the Aurender N10 server as source, which is awesome since I'll be able to borrow both and compare them with what I end up with.
Hazah, I say! |
HUGE UPDATE - THE ONE YOU'VE BEEN WAITING FOR:
I'm pregnant… LOL
ok, I'm not…
First off, I have made the official decision that for now, the Consequence Ultimate is my end point. With the adjustments in the room and the placement fine tuning, the speakers work flawlessly with no direct room interaction, no shout, no boom and just clean music. They do everything superbly and nothing, to my ears, is missing or flawed. They are a window to everything upstream. yes, they need more placement adjustments but I feel that they give me everything I want and with more effort, love and attention they will just keep giving me more. I like them better then the Isis and as much as the Tenors which did the same things but in a slightly different way… I will still admit that if I gad been able to make a deal for the Tenor's, I would have stopped there. They were that good and anyone considering spending that kind of money with a smaller room would be crazy not to listen to them!
The Isis have been purchased by my neighbor and we are, together, building a great system around them including the Aurender N10 and Berkeley Reference DAC (if it doesn't take 9 months to come in) which will give me access to some fun stuff to borrow as well. Win Win… Plus I can go over and hear the Isis whenever I like…
Now for some DAC news. Some BIG DAC news!!!!
First are impressions of the Allnic D5000 DAC. If I were comparing this DAC to anything else I have heard and reported on I would not say what I am about to say. Comparing the D5000 to my loyal, truth worthy giant killer ODSE and the crazily well reviewed and respected Emm Labs DAC2X is really not fair. The D5000 is actually closer to the DAC2X then the ODSE from a price point. The D5000 sounded soft compared to the other 2, which makes sense since its all about tubes. It sounded very soft to me. The base was thin in comparison and the upper mid registers were just not there. Standing on its own or compared to most other DAC's I have reported on over the many pages, it would favor rather well and I would suggest anyone interested in a tubed DAC start their search here and with the soon to be evaluated Aesthetix Romulus Signature. But to be blunt, it was easily outclassed by both the less expensive but giant killing ODSE and the more expensive DAC2X. I'll leave it at that…
Now…..
Wait for it…..
Cuz Here it comes….
After 51 pages of raves and more comparisons then I can even count anymore I can, for the first time, say that "The Kind is dead. Long Live The King!"
For the first time since I started this journey I went back and forth between my ODSE and the competition and ended up preferring the competition. The Emm Labs DAC2X has dethroned my ODSE and brought me closer to the music and audiologica Obsessiva bliss.
And it wasn't a small win. It does it with gusto! It does EVERYTHING better. Highs are more accurately reproduced, proper and extended without the faintest chirp of brightness, shrillness, shriek, or wince. The mids are natural and flat out real in a way the ODSE touches but just can't do the way the DAC2X does. Vocals are in the room with dimensionality, depth, realism and complexity. Base is lightning fast, clean, clear, extended and natural. Double Bass is reproduced like nothing I have heard before. Tympany has depth, impact, layering and scale. The soundstage expands in every direction while creating a more natural aura around each performer and placing them in their proper location in the X, Y and Z access. Its uncanny. I can understand, for the first time, when reviewers say their digital sounds like analog.
What can I say…. The DAC2X is over twice the cost of the ODSE but its worth every penny. The ODSE is a miraculous DAC and kills everything else close to it, but their is clearly a level about and the DAC2X is solidly in that upper tier.
I am going to listen to the Aesthetix Romulus Signature in a few weeks because I desperately want to and need to be able to advise those who ask where it stands in the pecking order (especially with its tubed nature). I am very curious to hear how it compares to the ODSE and I will let you all know…
On the Monday I get back from RMAF, a pretty nicely loaded MSB Dac and its matching MSB surge suppressor will be sent my way. With the crazy performance of the Emm DAC2X, I am truly exploding to hear the MSB in my system and compare the 2. The Emmlabs dealer, Larry from northern Jersey, is a great guy and has generously offered to let me keep the DAC2X until the MSB arrives so I can compare the two directly.
I also think I have secured a CAD and Rockna DAC audition but it looks like they will not be for quite some time based on my very resent conversation with their importer. LIke December potentially.
In regards to the Antipodes DX comparison I will again report some surprising findings….
After comparing the DX to my purpose modified Mac Mini over about 2 hours, I can say with certainty that I prefer the music generated by my Modded Mac Mini. I had left the DX on for 3 days with signal running through it to really prep it. It linked right up with the computer and to all DAC's without an issue and the iPhone App iPeng8 was great. I wanted to like it…. I REALLY wanted to like it better!!!! The Tidal controls on the Mac Mini sorta suck form my iPhone to be honest, and the DX has a great built in ripper which is SO convenient… I wanted to like it better.
I ripped several store bought CD's directly onto the DX as well as my SongList CD that I bring to stores with me for my auditions. In all cases, I just preferred the Mac Mini more. My friend was 100% dead on (as is CTSooner). Base response on the DX is limited compared to the Mac Mini, and its not that the Mac is overemphasizing them. The DX affects leading and trailing edges in a definable way and although it, at first, appears to have a wider soundstage it really doesn't. Its just very slightly smeared with a "wider" soundstage but less accuracy in imagine and placement.
Its very convenient but I will not be replacing my Mac Mini just yet. I will try the Aurender when I can get my hands on it, and hope to try the CAD and Rockna servers when they become available to me in December along with their DAC's.
I also have a dealer friend who is a Lumen dealer and he has an A1 to try out (although the Lumen really relies on their own internal DAC and only has I2S digital outputs). I need to check to see if the DAC2X has I2S inputs, and I would certainly try the A1 with its internal DAC as well…
I'm trying guys. Its a LOT of work and time to do all of this and I have obviously gotten SO much out of the effort this far. Please remember that my opinions are based on my ears, my room and my system and your experience with different gear may/will vary dramatically from mine. Always hear anything before you buy it and never buy anything purely on reviews and web opinions!
For right now, I'm done with my speaker search. Officially. I have a few dealers and reps who still want me to try some stuff as it becomes available and I will be happy to do so. But my goal, other then to continue my insane DAC search, is to fine tune placement of my speakers and treatments to get the most I can from my room. And then start helping my neighbor to do the same in his room. Its way more fun spending other peoples money though!!!!!
Cheers! and sorry for the typos. Hopefully you still got the gist... |
I will try the Romulus Sig as a DAC, not a spinner. The fact that it spins Is a bonus. The point about impedance mismatches is a very interesting one and makes me think that the Allnic D5000 may have a similar issue. It's all about system synergy in the end.
I have had several tell me the ODSE beat the Emm DAC2X on their evaluation. And the Meitner was much more analytical and sterile then the ODSE. All I can say is that the DAC2X was not sterile; It was clean and natural with aire and an almost ephemeral ability to reproduce the instruments, the vocals and the space between.
My neighbor acquired a Berkeley Ref DAC and the Berk usb to spdif converter. It will be here within a week. I'll report when I can. It should be here the same time that the MSB will be here, and the Emm DAC2X is on a 2-3 week extended audition so I should have all 3 at the same time, along with the Romulus. Wow. That should be a good competition.
Stay tuned. |
Hi Mas.
Do you know if they are showing the Joule? That's the one I need to hear for my size room. |
Although I have to tell you I am quite happy with my choice. I don't think Vapor could compare with my Consequence. But if it's there i'd be happy to go listen. |
Wonder if it will be the same room as Axpona.
Perfect Storm speakers, Lamm amp/pre, Antipodes DX and Golden Gate Lampy DAC. |
Yes. Unquestionably. But I could get a taste for their Joule. Again. I'm not really in the market anymore. But I like listening to everything. I have a neighbor I'm putting together a system for using the T&F Isis and such. It's always good to know different stuff so I can suggest with experience.
I'm looking forward to the tunes, the break from work, the relaxing atmosphere and good people!!
Can wait! |
|
Bill is expecting me. I can't wait wit to hear them!!! Thanks for asking. |
Finished day 1. It's 9pm here and i arrived at 9am. I just had drinks with the owner of Volti speakers - what a nice guy!!! My flight left at 5:30'ish AM and I finished in the OR about 4 hours before that. I'm beat!
I ran from top to bottom and did everything in 7 hours. But I need tomorrow to actually reinforce everything and give the rooms that deserve it more time. Here are my first super initial impressions:
JM Labs Utopia and Vac put together what I heard as the best room at the show. It was live music. One of the most live sounding systems I have ever heard. It was also about a half million dollars I believe.
JM Labs also put a room with Stella Utopias and 3 full preamp/amp systems in the same room and switched between them: Soulution, Air Tight and Accuphase. I only heard the Stella's with Soulution and it was spectacular!
Vivid Giya 1 and Mola Mola put a great room together that was warm and musical. I was impressed considering I have not loved either Mola Mola or the Giya previosly.
Viper/Antipodes/Lampy had a bigger room. To me, the speakers were too big for the room and the Joule would have been a much better choice. The room sounded BIG. The music was BIG, everything was warm and Big. In a bigger room I could see that system being sensational. I just wish he had the Joule as I think it would have been a great room as opposed to a big room.
I finally heard Cessaro horns and now get what the full is about. They were wonderful!!!
Von Schweikert VR-55/YFS music servers/Constellation hit it out of the park for a small room. I can't wait to hear what it sound like broken in!
Rowland's new Daemon integrated is a tour de force of technical and acoustic mastery and made the YG Sonya sound the best I have heard them.
MSB DAC V and MSB amps with a pair of big new Quads showed how good Quads can be when fed a healthy diet of crazy expensive amazing gear!!!
ELAC introduced a floor standing speaker for well under a grand that sets a new level for everyone to keep up with. The tonal color and layering were dead on and they way outperform their price level.
Although I'm not a huge fan of either, VTL and Wilson made some nice music together.
Boulder's new music server is sick and it's $65k !!!
Cary Audios new music server is nice and it's $6k, or something like that.
AudioMachina and Einstein made killer may if together a that wa clean, accurate, with a deep soundstage and engaging music.
German Physics speaker has a soundstage I could jump into a swim around in. It was HUGE.
Volti is not only a nice guy but makes great speakers that sound terrific with Boarder Patrol gear.
That's not to say that others weren't great, just that I either forgot or didn't give them enough time. I'll be more rested and thorough tomorrow. |
Finished day 1. It's 9pm here and i arrived at 9am. I just had drinks with the owner of Volti speakers - what a nice guy!!! My flight left at 5:30'ish AM and I finished in the OR about 4 hours before that. I'm beat!
I ran from top to bottom and did everything in 7 hours. But I need tomorrow to actually reinforce everything and give the rooms that deserve it more time. Here are my first super initial impressions:
JM Labs Utopia and Vac put together what I heard as the best room at the show. It was live music. One of the most live sounding systems I have ever heard. It was also about a half million dollars I believe.
JM Labs also put a room with Stella Utopias and 3 full preamp/amp systems in the same room and switched between them: Soulution, Air Tight and Accuphase. I only heard the Stella's with Soulution and it was spectacular!
Vivid Giya 1 and Mola Mola put a great room together that was warm and musical. I was impressed considering I have not loved either Mola Mola or the Giya previosly.
Viper/Antipodes/Lampy had a bigger room. To me, the speakers were too big for the room and the Joule would have been a much better choice. The room sounded BIG. The music was BIG, everything was warm and Big. In a bigger room I could see that system being sensational. I just wish he had the Joule as I think it would have been a great room as opposed to a big room.
I finally heard Cessaro horns and now get what the full is about. They were wonderful!!!
Von Schweikert VR-55/YFS music servers/Constellation hit it out of the park for a small room. I can't wait to hear what it sound like broken in!
Rowland's new Daemon integrated is a tour de force of technical and acoustic mastery and made the YG Sonya sound the best I have heard them.
MSB DAC V and MSB amps with a pair of big new Quads showed how good Quads can be when fed a healthy diet of crazy expensive amazing gear!!!
ELAC introduced a floor standing speaker for well under a grand that sets a new level for everyone to keep up with. The tonal color and layering were dead on and they way outperform their price level.
Although I'm not a huge fan of either, VTL and Wilson made some nice music together.
Boulder's new music server is sick and it's $65k !!!
Cary Audios new music server is nice and it's $6k, or something like that.
AudioMachina and Einstein made killer may if together a that wa clean, accurate, with a deep soundstage and engaging music.
German Physics speaker has a soundstage I could jump into a swim around in. It was HUGE.
Volti is not only a nice guy but makes great speakers that sound terrific with Boarder Patrol gear.
That's not to say that others weren't great, just that I either forgot or didn't give them enough time. I'll be more rested and thorough tomorrow.
To me, Kii was a disappointment. But it appears to me to be a speaker that really needs time to warm up and break in. So I will hold final judgement until tomorrow evening or Sunday morning. |
Hi all.
First off, Bill Parish gave me a personal showing with the Kii (pronounced Kee like Wii) and a day of show play and settling really made a difference (as I suspected). Bill played a few tracks of jazz before kicking into a nic organ piece that showed these tiny things can go low. They deal with front wall issues but side wall and everything in front of the speakers still needs to be addressed. The room was a bit small for them honestly. I see them as an amazing solution for a living or family room. I'm going to hear them in Bills place to see how they sound in different environment.
The new Jeff Rowland Daemon is amazing and really makes the YG Sonya sing (literally). It's limitless power using a new class D amp developing by an offshoot of the Ice class D module, unlike the 825 and 925 which use an Ncore module.
I'll try to report some more of my impressions later tonight. I was invited to a tour of Jeff's factory in Colorado Springs and an audition of his voicing system(thanks Guido!!). Of course I said yes .
It's crazy meeting all these guys. Alex from MSB, Jeff from Rowland, Yoav Geva from YG. It's very cool and they are all good guys. |
I'll post a seperate post on my Rowland trip. Wow.
Show is winding down. Day 3 is always quieter.
Some quick thoughts:
If anyone is interested in a crazy good system (speaker, amps and preamp) for under $10k then look no further then Oddysey! His room was musical, engaging, huge deep soundstage and just engaging.
The Vapor room lost its amp late yesterday (the Lampy amp died for whatever reason) and since Rowland was on the same floor they were asked and Jeff graciously provided a brand new 625 S2. It was a revolutionary improvement in the system. Today, the room was awesome. They also hooked up their Nimbus White in a different room either last neither or today and I got to hear that as well. What I learned is that they are serious players and make some good damn speakers. I have now heard both the Vapor and the similarly designed Salk and I think I prefer the Vapor, although I still haven't heard the Joule, which is the model I would have the most interest in.
Nola came it with a new speaker that appears to be the top of their lower range and it's musical and engaging as well. They had a big room and it filled it with no problem. I like Nola and their open baffle design really helps to throw a huge soundstage. Speaker is around $14-15k if I remember correctly.
Usher has a their X-Towers and they sounded great. I've always like Usher and these do more things better then any of their previous models. I did think they lacked that last ounce of driver integration that some other speakers have. At around $15k it's also a sweat deal.
Jl Labs new Utopia Sopra line is another great offering in the $14k range. They give the same voicing and style with less grace and scale then the big Utopias. A tough call for $15k between Vapor, Nola, Usher and JM considering the level of performance now offered. And there are many others in that range that also are killer value. It's all good and a great opportunity for the consumer. Especially since many of these speakers easily drop sub $10k on the pre-owner market.
Sakura'son gave me a wonderful audition of his all Sakura, and I mean ALL (transport, DAC, pre, amp, power supplies, speakers, turntable, cables, everything). I would jump at it for rock or punchy modern music but for soft classical, jazz and the like it's simply stunning. And his turntable is just masterful in mechanical engineering and implementation. Industrial art for the eyes and the ears!
Greg from Volti has 2 great speakers and they did an amazing job together with Boarder Patrol. You need the space and an understanding wife, but they really are musically engaging.
I'm sure I missed a room that deserved to be mentioned. But those were my favorites. I think the rooms sounded pretty good overall compared to come other shows I've been to. Few CD players, lots of music servers are popping up and I'll post seperate my about that. And what's incredible it that LP seams to be winning the format war for solid medium by default. You just can't download a record..... Not yet. ;) |
Correction.
Sakur - I Wouldn't jump at it for rock. |
Also need to mention the Schweikert VR-55/Constellation room with FYS music server. It was a great room. Daemon Von'Schweikert always does a good job setting up his rooms and this was a great room. |
Which YG room was your favorite?
Sonya with: Rowland, PS Audio or Audio Net?? |
Ok. The Jeff Rowland experience:
My good friend, and Jeff Rowland uber fan, Guido Corona helped arrange my involvement in what I believe to be a common occurrence amongst visiting dealers and distributors during these shows. I was invited to join a group of Jeff Rowland dealers and distributors on a 1 hour drive from Denver to Colorado Springs for a yummy Thai dinner and a tour of the company facilities and most importantly, an opportunity to listen to his listening/voicing room.
The peopl were great, the tour was fascinating, the dinner was delicious and the listening room was absolutely staggering. It was a "core memory" for those Inside Out fans.
There were shelves filled with dozens of each model Rowland unit since they do runs of each model, and don't make them as ordered. Jeff Rowland tests each and every unit before it goes out. I think that they prep each unit in big runs but do the final buildout and fine touches as each unit is ordered.
The listening room was large, about 20x30 and modestly treated. Thin wall to wall carpet and an open industrial ceiling with insulation blown into the beams and rafters. To be polite, I didn't ask about gear/cables I didn't recognize and I didn't walk about the system to see more closely. The speakers were somewhat modified B&W Nautalis beauties, a Rowland Aeris DAC and four (yes four) brandly newly designed and well burned in model 625S2 amplifiers. DAC was running straight to the amps with no preamp. There was a turntable in the back corner that I didn't recognize (although I'm not a table guru) and we only listened to red book CD streaming from a PC through a Bryston BDP-2 server. The sound was simply sublime. It was in the top 3 audiophile experiences I have ever had. It was live music. It was engaging and there was no thought of analyzing the music, just lost in the moment.
What I learned about the Aries is that it sounds it's best with Rowland amps. I didn't use it with a Rowland amp. I used it with my Merrill Vertias, Burmester 911 and on loan AudioNet monoblocks. I will admit that Guido strongly urged me to try an 825 but one was not available to try at the time. The Nautalus speakers were sensational (I have never heard them before) and sounded incredible with the 625S2 monoblocks and Aries DAC.
If his goal was to impress us and show that his equipment can deliver the goods, then mission accomplished!!!! |
Teaser:
Hopefully I will have some time this morning to listen and compare the "on loan" Emm DAC-2X and the "just arrived and on loan" MSB DAC V. MSB is also lending me the purpose made power line conditioner for the DAC but they were using it at RMAF so it's en route now. But a fair comparison would be using my same Shunyata Hydra AV conditioner on both dacs. So I'll start there.
Stay tuned. |
Agreed Guido. But I need to steady my flow of stereo expenses. So accessory upgrades will happen gradually over the next year or so. But you are 100% correct my friend. |
Fascinating - my first impression upon listening to the MSB (in the first 30 min) is a burning desire to adjust the placement of my speakers to squeeze the last bit of performance out of them. At $42k for the Diamond V with Diamond power supply, Quad sub, volume control (for resale purposes only) and the "standard" internal clock it is quite astounding, as one would expect. It has an immediate sense of just not being there; the music just flows through with a natural sense of it just being right.
Going to listen for another hour and then swap to the DAC2X and see.....
I also have a friend coming over to help with the comparison so it's not just my ears. |
That was supposed to be: Quad USB |
Its always hard to give opinions on first impressions. I need to really listen to the MSB more....
My friend came over and he interpreted that same sense of needing to move the speakers as well, but he felt that it was due to a lack of image specificity as if there was a partial phase issue. I don't know if I agree in that I found image specificity to be very good and think that it was simply showing the limitations of my current speaker location. He heard that same lack of specificity on everything but said that one song was better then he had ever heard before, other then the singers image issue. again, maybe my brain was interpreting it differently but I didn't hear it that way. To me, the soundstage was wider and deeper with more space between performers.
After listening to several selections we flipped to the Emm. I had spent the previous hour and a half listening so I had a solid idea of what we were comparing...
The Emm definitely snapped the image into a more exact location but with a slight narrowing of the overall soundstage. In typical Emm Labs fashion it had more analytical accuracy but not at all sacrificing musicality or warmth. I don't like analytical ad yet the DAC2X gives analytical and musical without the downside.
It was truly a matter of preference as both dacs are truly sensational and blow all other dacs I have heard out of the water. I need to listen way more but he very quickly ascertained that he preferred the style of the Emm over the MSB. I am not so quick to judge (which you can probably read as his ear is more trained and better attune to discerning differences and he makes quicker decisions). I think I like certain things better about the Emm and certain things better about the MSB. I feel that the MSB is getting deeper into the soul of the music. But I need to figure out exacty how that is presenting itself. Considering the $42K vs $16K price difference the Emm certainly has nothing to be embarrassed about and takes a stand on presenting the music its way. My friend leans towards the analytical side and I typically lean towards neutral to, maybe, a scootch warm..
more listening and I'll report more... |
Vyokyong- thank you for your input. It's a shame so many of these horror stories about Vapor are on the Internet. Vapor and Salk seam to use similar drivers in different configurations. But Salk has nothing but raves of his humble nature, responsiveness, product quality and reliable delivery. While Vapor has great show presence and does have a strong following but also has this dark side on the Internet. If I am interpreting Vapor's issue correctly I believe that he probably handles most of his product and shipment without issue but when conflict or miscommunication exist he may not handle it well and let's his temper get the best of him; and because of the ease of the Internet those interaction are quick to make the front page (so to speak).
I can say that I have met them twice at shows and they have been very professional and put together very good rooms overall.
My impression with Vapor is to make sure everything is well laid out and there are no miscommunications. I have never read anything bad about product quality, just posts like the one above....
With that said, I'd very much like to avoid turning this fun thread into one of twenty Vapor obsessed threads that become nothing more then pissing matches.
So let's keep the Vapor talk to the Vapor threads please. I mentioned them as a point of review of the quality of sound in their room. That was all. |
Regarding all of my DAC reviews and options I will restate over and over, as Wisonon very eloquently just did, that my opinions are just that. I chose what I like most in my room and my system. Pretty much every DAC I have heard can be the front end of a killer system with the right marching gear, right room and right ears.
Case in point is the differing of opinion on the gear I bring in with my friends who come to listen. I had someone else come over yesterday who much preferred the warmer sound of the MSB. This stuff is all SO DAMN GOOD that none of them are losers. It's all opinion, in this case my opinion.
I just try to report the differences so that others can use them to pick the voicing and qualities that they think would best match their system and their tastes. Consider it a community service blog. Lol.
I will say I have had universally positive responses with no negative comments regarding my Burnester gear (other then that my room is hot) and my Consequence Ultimates.
I'm sitting right now to listen for an hour or so to the MSB. Let's see how it sounds after running it nonstop for 3 days. |
Thanks Mike. I have heard amazing things about the Trinity. I look forward to getting my hands on one.
I was surprised at Vince's choice of speaker at RMAF for such a sophisticated system, to be honest. But having the essentially same DAC in my home for about a week now I find its overal tone and texture to have been well represented on the Quads. I have been told that the faster clocks increase resolution and reduce noise and jitter resulting in an ever more analog sound overall. The "warmth" of the MSB is described as our brains interpretation of a lack of noise and jitter giving a sense of analog resolution more akin to LP. I see and hear that, I do.
At this level it's such personal preference and the way it melds into the system....
With an inherent level of "warmth" in my Burmesters I find the Emm to mate a tad better then the "analog resolution" that the MSB is providing. Maybe a faster clock would change that, maybe not. But I also think I haven't listened close to enough yet to really settle in to an opinion.
Your experience and input are greatly appreciated Mike. Thanks. |
Sorry Guido.
Up-sampling: off, 1,2,3
Filter: 32x, 16x, Lanczos 3, Minimum Phase
Playing with them now. |
Tbg- which room did you turn around and leave? |
Melbguy- the Vitas gear is still on that short list of true uber dacs.
Vitus, DCS, MSB, CH Precision, Trinity, Emm Labs new just introduced DA-2, and some would put the Berkeley Reference DAC and the Lampy Golden Gate in that list....
At that list level it truly becomes personal preference and system integration.
Are you using Vitus amps and preamp as well? |
Guido, I didn't say I liked all of those options. Just that they were considered statement products. I heard an all CH system with $100k+ Zellaton speakers and neither the electronics nor the speakers were to my taste. But to some it is their holy grail and I would not want to take that away from them.
I forgot to add the new Soulution DAC I heard at RMAF. And the DAC that was in the Vivid and German Physiks room. The name currently escapes me. Lots of serious choices these days. |
Guido - no worries. I didn't take it as an insult. Just pointing out.
Melbguy1 - cool. Enjoy those S7's! |
Mike - how's the Trinity treating you?
The purpose built power conditioner for the MSB is supposed to be arriving today so I'll be able to add that in and get final thoughts on the MSB DAC.
The settings are interesting. I don't notice big differences at all on the Upsampling options but the filter changes dramatically change the sound. I'll play some more and report. |
Thanks George. I'm a huge fan of Bruno's NCORE module! Can't wait to hear what he can do with a converter.
The MSB line conditioner arrived yesterday. I hooked it in and ran the little ground wire to my amp as described in its manual. I've never used any type of system wide grounding system for my room since I ran the electrical myself and was meticulous with running identical power line lengths for each outlet back to the dedicated breaker panel. I tried the conditioner with the ground isolated and shared with the amp. In my system I didn't really notice a difference, which may be because of what I just described I don't have enough understanding of ground loops and such to give a better answer.
The conditioner itself was on par with my Shunyata Hydra conditioner I currently use. I A/B'd them basically. I never ran the DAC straight to the wall. I'm going to hold onto the conditioner and try it on my ODSE to see if it makes a difference.
Regarding the MSB Diamond DAC:
Fit and finish are Statement level as you would expect. It's the most attractive and well built DAC I've had in my room. I had the black but would have preferred the white/silver. Controls and remote were well laid out and easy to use, as was the back panel. Nothing was in the way of anything and the cable layout flowed elegantly. The settings, as I said, were limited (which i prefer) and I ended up leaving them default. The upsampling softened the overall gestalt and decreased the height of the soundstage. And I could not discern a difference between upsampling #1 and #2. So I left it off, default setting. The filters caused a more dramatic change but not for the better. Default was 32x; which I preferred 95% of the time. The other 2 settings reduced low frequency extension, exaggerated the upper mids and highs and gave the sound a more technical nature. The background became the foreground with the 3rd filter setting; quite strange an effect really. So settings, as such, remained default which is what Vince suggested when I spoke with him at RMAF.
I initially ran it through my Burmester 077 preamp. The DAC has a recognizable warmth. This was decribed to me by the dealer as a result of removal of all noise and jitter, leaving behind just the music. It was not overwhelming and clearly something many will prefer. At first it felt natural and flowed but over time I became more aware of it; sometimes good and sometimes not. Staging, imaging, tone and texture were all dead on as were leading and trailing edges (which I found more easily identifiable with the MSB then any other DAC). The 16x filter removed the warmth almost completely, but the magic of the MSB also faded. It was sweat, engaging and felt right many times. But I didn't feel like I was getting quite the accurate portrayal of what was recorded. That was provided more naturally, to my ears and in my system, by the Emm Labs unit.
I then tried running it direct from DAC to amps. As any of you who have been reading since the beginning (and you know who you are, you crazy pathological dedicated few) know, I have consistently preferred running my DAC thorugh a preamp over direct to the amp. The MSB is quite an accomplishment in engineering regarding fits volume control. With the DAC run direct, the warmth was stepped down a notch or two. It was still there, but for the first time I thought I preferred my DAC run direct. I felt I gained a level of analytical detail and removed a touch of warmth and for that I preferred direct. After more listening felt that I lost a sense of air, complexity and depth that made me eventually put the preamp back in. If I were ever going to run a DAC direct, this would be it. Which is good because at +/- $42k, saving money on a preamp would be a very good thing. If I were going to run a DAC with a lesser preamp I would go direct honestly. But the previous Rowland Criterion and my current Burmy 077 are SO good that I think they just give me what I need to complete the whole scenario. Maybe it's just me...
In the end, I prefered the more natural sense of tone, realism, complexity and depth that the Emm gave me. I was given the opportunity to acquire an early run of the brand new SOTA Emm Labs statement DA-2 just shown at RMAF. I couldn't pass it up and placed a deposit. If it's better then the dac2x, which I can't imagine its not, then I should be quite happy with the results. For now, the MSB goes back with no misgivings and my ODSE is back in. The DA-2 should be here late 2015/early 2016. So I will hold off on any additional DAC trials until the DA-2 has arrived and is well burned in.
That being said, I seam to have people send me dacs to try out and compare. If/when that happens I will report and let you know. For example, my neighbor's Berkely Ref DAC with usb/SPDIF converter should be arriving early next week. We will burn it in on his system and then I will borrow it and report. He also just got an Aurender N10 music server so I can start playing with that and will report shortly as well. I want to give that 100-200 hours to burn in.
In the meantime I received a very unique product from Waversa that I was asked to play with and evaluate. It is called the W Smart Hub and is probably amongst the first of a new line of product that will start to emerge with the onset of Renderer's, NAS drives and Internet integration. It is essentially a battery isolated Audiophile grade Data Hub. It has both usb and Ethernet ports on back. Usb goes between server/DAC and Ethernet between NAS/network and between server/renderer. Each signal is repowered from the battery, totally isolating it from any external power and then each port is filtered to isolate noise. It sounds cool but I have not had time to actually install it in the system. I'll try the Ethernet part first, then the usb, then both. Let's see.... I can say it's built to a very high quality level with a very nice fit and finish. |
The Ultimate Tweak:
I want everyone to know that I have spent the past 13.897 weeks secretly researching and implementing what I consider to be the worlds ultimate audiophile tweak. I am, quite frankly, shocked that no one else has thought of this before me. After delving into room treatments, cabling, vibration and electromagnetic isolation, psychoacoustics, phase and time shifts, and simple speaker and seating placement it became clear to me that we have all missed the proverbial boat completely. As the waves of music emanate from the speakers they instantly hit the greatest limitation we all suffer from. Air my friends. That ghastly combination of mostly Oxygen with some Nitrogen, Helium, and a few other trace elements compressed at a measly 1 ATM (atmosphere of pressure - 760 torr). Our beloved waves of acoustic energy affected by such a plebian design as air; it makes me wretch and heave just thinking about the unacceptability of the situation.
Once the thought came upon me I was unable to sleep, eat, drink, work, respire, perspire, perfuse or waste a single molecule of ATP on anything other then my new goal. I immediately set at work sealing off my room of any possible entrance point for that horrible air. Such a poor transmitter of acoustic waves that they travel but a few meters before dissipating to the four winds (literally). Once my room was devoid of all things air'ish I began phase 2 of my plan.... what would work better then air? My first juvenile attempts were to simply try air collected from outside of some of the more prominent Audiophile companies. as is the case with wine and the earth the grapes grow in affecting their quality, if these companies can make music sound good it must be the air around their manufacturing plants that has something special... I began my trek to the corners of the globe (has anyone every realized what a stupid expression that is?? Globes, by definition, have no corners!)and collected air from outside Nordost, Rowland, Burmester, Soutution, Accuphase, JM Labs, YG, and many of the other reveared companies. I pumped my room full of each of these collections to no avail... I will admit that the air outside of the Colorado based Rowland Group has a rather funny smell and made me feel great, but it didn't improve the actual sound quality. My suspicions were realized in full, air in all of its forms was not the solution....
It took months, 78 trips to the hospital, and a small fortune in rare and available gas combinations to come upon the solution... With a combination of compression to between 9 and 14 ATM (around 9,120 torr)of 98% Nitrogen, 1% Argon and a small mixture of Xenon, Vaporized Silver (gives the sound a touch of accuracy), Silica salt ions and the concentrated smell of my Maltese's left ear canal I had done it! The compression needs to be highest in a direct line from the speakers to my ears (what I refer to as the listening tubes) and then mitigate as it expands laterally, giving the sound increasing speed as the pressure reduces, reflects, and then hitting a wave of higher pressure at it re-enters the listening tube as a reflection. The increased viscosity of the listening tubes propagates sound at a much more efficient level then banal air and the wave front created by the change in pressure essentially eliminates all reflections. Utter perfection!!!
The room came at a cost of 19.4 million dollars as the variable compression device is rather complex and is wired completely with Odin 2 speaker wire; 2/3 of a mile of it in total. The gas cost is negligible and my Maltese doesn't seam to mind me extracting the ear canal odor much at all. I have, unfortunately, been hospitalized several times for severe cases of the bends and I subsequently installed a very sophisticated decompression system which allows me to listen to music down to about 4 atm before the sound quality becomes unacceptable.
Compression requires about 2 days to fully stabilize the variable compression system which is perfect as it allows my equipment to warm up nicely during that time. I have taken to knitting, sock puppet animation and cats cradle to pass the time during compression and decompression.
I tried a Synergistic Research Atmosphere to fine tune the system and it seamed to work wonders until I set it to its Easy Listening setting and it had a severe interaction with the Xenon, Argon mixture and blew up half of my block. Boy were the neighbors pissed!
As it stands I believe I am the first in the world to have this system and I am utterly disgusted at al of you for not thinking of it sooner. It is the proverbial "No Brainer".
Please let me know if you would like to implement one of these systems in your home. I will gladly provide a detailed layout of the entire design and a list of all necessary supplies.
You, of course, will have to provide your own Maltese.
If you don't have one of these then you truly can not call yourself an Audiophile!
Oh, please keep in mind that the respiration system required to breath in what I have come to fondly refer to the room as "The really freaking expensive room filled with gas and lots of pressure that makes my nose bleed and ears happy," is made of carbon fiber and requires carbon fiber air tanks and hoses to avoid ringing. I mean, any Audiophile worth his weight in StillPoints knows that its gotta be carbon fiber! If your not going to take this seriously then don't even try.... |
Copied from another site:
DXD is not DSD (direct stream digital, one bit recording). DXD is a PCM format that is a very high sampling rate of 352.8kHz / 24bit. Merging Technologies and Pyramix incorporated the DXD format into their recording systems to provide PCM like tools at a much higher standard than was available at that time. DXD at 352.8 is approximately 4x larger file size than DSD2.8 though, among avid DSD recording engineers, some may hear a more PCM like quality to DXD that is not to their liking.
The Sonoma system for recording to DSD has limited editing capabilities but can stay in the DSD format without going to PCM/DXD. The limitation for the Sonoma system is that is currently only records in DSD 2.8 (also called DSD64)
Some labels, like 2L, have chosen to record in the DXD format and release in DSD. This allow for more editing that is common to PCM. DSD as a "container" for DXD is a very suitable solution for delivering files to end users/music lovers. Some labels, like Channel Classics, choose to record in DSD and on occasion will convert to DXD for minor editing purposes. Some labels, like Blue Coast, record using the Sonoma system and limit their editing to stay in the DSD format.
What the future holds is up to the consumer. Eventually, the acceptance of DSD will provide recording equipment capable of DSD tools equivalent to that in the PCM world. As a container, DSD has proven itself to be efficient for delivering files at about 25% of the file size of industry equivalent PCM formats. As broadband continues to have bigger 'pipes', DSD could be the optimum choice for streaming and downloading our music in the future.
The best test is to listen and decide for yourself about DSD vs DXD or PCM. |
Guido- having previously thought that even the mighty Aeris sounded best with a preamp, I can understand the thought of requiring gain from a preamp. But after hearing Jeff Rowland's voicing system sans preamp I have a different attitude.
I believe that there are certain products that are very specifically constructed and deigned to sound their absolute best with their own mating gear and can skip the added gain from a preamp when doing so. Rowland, Ayon and MSB come to mind. I believe that these products truly sound their best when mated with their purpose designed sister amplifiers. Impedance, gain, etc are all perfectly matched to eliminate the need for a preamp completely. If not mating them with like manufacturer, a preamp permits the user to integrate those wonderful components into a mixed system and maintain their magical performance.
I know you tried to tell me this 2 years ago. But I just wasn't ready to listen. Grins. |
The Aurender N10 is in the house and I will start cooking it tomorrow. I'll report quick first impressions including ease of setup and control, and then throw about 200 hours on it before I really listen and compare it to my Mac Mini. |
Thanks Calvin.
Someone a while ago, maybe you (sorry don't remember who) brought up the Invicta and Mirus dacs. I read up on them and they look awesome. I never had the opportunity to hear one but I was intrigued by their design and parts utilization. I'll bet they sound great.
Thanks for the input! |
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TBG - have you heard a class D from Rowland or Merrill Audio? Condemning class D forever because of what class D used to be is like saying you don't like modern Cadillacs because your grandfather used to drive a Caddy u-boat..... |
I am getting another MSB DAC from MSB with a different filter to see if I like that better. Not sure exactly what product it will be. I will keep you all posted.
Also should be able to get my hands on the Berkeley Reference DAC shortly as well. I want to let it burn in for a few hundred hours before I borrow it from my neighbor. But it's definitely arriving next Monday to him.
I'll compare the Berk and the MSB directly. And I still have the Emm Labs dac2x sound fresh in my mind.
Also hoping to get some time tomorrow morning to compare the Aurender n10 and my Mac mini. The N10 has been cooking for about 120 hours. Stay tuned. |
There is nothing cheap in cost nor performance about the Berk Ref DAC, the Rowland Aeris nor the OverDrive. I haven't heard the Berk yet, but its reputation is excellent. I'm not sure about the Aeris DAC using the AD, I'm sure Guido can comment, but I think you are correct that the AD is used in the ODSE. My ODSE can rub elbows with dacs costing several times its price and I've heard most of them. Just because it's got an R to R doesn't make it, by default, better. So much depends on implementation and design...... |
Did an extended comparison of the N10 and my Mac mini this morning.
Final call: N10 wider soundstage with wider image - stretched to fit the soundstage. Image accuracy suffers as a result of that smear. It's warmer then my Mac in the midrange. Not quit as extended up top. If they were ice cream I would call my Mac French Vanilla and the N10 Butterscotch.
Low frequency extension on the N10 is extended but seams slightly less taught then my Mac Mini. I felt I got a more neutral accurate portrayal of the recording through the Mac them the N10. I have to say that the N10 only has about 120-140 hours on it and it will likely open up a lot more.
Both are excellent and it's a matter of taste. There is a HUGE difference between the two in regards to use and implementation. The N10 is plug, play and enjoy. The Mac is a computer. Settings, opening software, Etc. It's not nearly as easy to use as the N10 which is a simple App on your iPad and go. That said, I do like Jriver personally. I prefer the voice and performance of my Mac Mini over the N10.
I'll report again after it gets another few hundred hours on it. |
George. I disagree. But I guess we will agree to disagree.
My experience has shown me otherwise. But there's no fault in you making a stand. I just worry that others reading this thread will read that it MUST be R2R to be the best and I believe that to not be the case. There are many exceptional dacs out there that make red book sound wonderful, engaging, exciting and musical that do not implement R2R designs.
Truth is, system synergy will have everything to do with which DAC you chose. Listen and try. |
I'm not disagreeing that there are R2R dacs that make great music. I'm just saying that there are dacs that are not R2R that also make red book sound great. I don't believe in absolute statements.
I also agree with many here who have said that the recording typically sounds best in its natively recorded format. And that hi-Rez or DSD or red book matter less then reproducing them in their native format and letting them sound their best. I've heard incredible DSD, hi Rez PMC and red book all sound musical and engaging.... |
Hi Rez PCM. Damn autocorrect !! |
I think we all agree that It's all about the design and implementation. Not the cost of parts. I used to own an Ariel Atom. It was a steel frame and a "cheap" supercharged Chevy Ecotec engine. Cheap parts all around. But it did 0-60 in 2.7 seconds and cornered better then any Ferrari or McLaren I have ever driven. Talk about instant smile. Maker!!!
We are lucky to have so many brilliant designers and so many different ways to skin the proverbial DAC cat. Tastes vary, deigns vary, ears vary and rooms vary. It's all vary exciting!! ;) |
Hi guys. For the first time on this thread, I'm putting an end to this.
No more R2R commentary and no responses. You have made your opinion very very clear. If you want to continue I encourage you to start your own thread about how awesome you think R2R is to the exclusion of all else.
As is my attitude towards life, this thread is "inclusive", not "exclusive". By nature you have an "exclusive" attitude and that's not really welcome here. Sorry.
Feel free to follow, and feel free to intermittently post your absolute R2R support to the exclusion of all else. But once, not for a half a page and not to the point of starting a pissing match.
Enough. It's done!
I will post a review shortly on the Berkeley Ref and I have some killer cables coming in to try and I'll post my opinions as well. Keep reading. |
And while I'm standing on my soap box, did anyone besides Mike read my comic interlude on 10/15 entitled "The Ultimate Tweak"? Maybe I'm biased, but I thought it was some funny stuff....
I try to lighten things up every once in a while since we take ourselves so seriously..... |
