Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

audioengr2,905 posts04-21-2018 1:02pm

Did they even use the same interface? 

??? Of course we did.

So, which one was used??

The devil is in the details here. I recently asked a reviewer that did a DAC shootout what interface was used to make the comparison and he refused to tell me. What kind of a reviewer does that?

Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison?

This would give the Total DAC a big advantage, as its output is 6.4 Vrms max, compared to the Briscasti's 2 Vrms.

Another detail that could easily skew the results.

These types of shootouts must be carefully thought-out so a fair comparison can be made.

Steve N.

Empirical Audio

What reviewer does that? One who has no clue as to what a reviewer does or what a legit review is.  That's pretty sad if you ask me (which you didn't).  Teh problem I have with audio reviews now days is lack of transparency by many/most.  There are just too many folks who get gear for free or at material's cost and then sell it without paying taxes to supplement their income.  I also used to love folks like Tom Gillet who also used his last name backwards to do The Cheapskate Audiophile, Sam Tellig.  I get pen names and all (was a journalism major in college), but he was never on the up and up based on what many dealers and manufacturer's would say back in teh day.  That's why I stopped reading Stereophile on a regular basis.  JMHO

Matt, how are the teddy bears doing?  LMAO...I loved that one!  I Actually had the Dave in twice.  I have heard it numerous times in many systems.  I choice teh Ayre QX5 over Dave as to me, it has better bass quantity and quality.  That's just me in my system.  As we have discussed so often, digital is much more prone to sounding different in every system.  As much as there is a house sound etc.... the type of electrical you feed it along with the connections you use will GREATLY affect it.  YMMV.  

Hmmmmm. I used to be able to pop into this thread and quickly catch up. I wish my family told me to take Spanish over French.  At least I got a C in French. 🤨

Matt, don't burn your fingers when rolling those hot tubes!  

Thanks for the update Matt.  Can't wait to hear bout the Lamy's.  This will be very cool as you are now open to audition the tubes.  

Matt's getting some cool gear in soon...I have a feeling things will pick up quickly after that.  Looks like I'll be getting my The Memory Player with DAC in next week or so.  Can't wait.  I'll be selling the Ayre QX5 most probably, but it's such a GREAT headphone amp that I may need to figure out a way to put it in another room ;)...That's what I love about a DAC that has a streamer built right in.  

Thanks for that great post Dave.  Appreciated.  Irony is that I heard the Ayre QX5 (the one I currently own) vs the T+A DAC in a system I was pretty familiar with and to my ear it wasn't close.  It shouldn't be since the Ayre goes for a bit under 6k to 8500 or so, but often times when folks claim a 4500 component sounds better than 'anything' under 10k is fallacy and hyperbole.  I have loved the Ayre Codex at under 2k.  I felt that it bettered most of the DACs I heard under 5k, but that was a few years ago. It's still a killer for the price, but with all the new dAC's out there under 5k things have changed and will continue to change.  

We all win out, but the one thing that we have all concluded is that digital is SOOOO system dependent.  I have heard my own DAC in a few different systems now.  Each time it was allowed to stay on for a few days and it sounded different.  It's got the same sound signature an all, but I haven't loved it in every system.  I can honestly say that every DAC that I've heard in multiple systems has sounded differently than I remember.  Not scientific, but most of you understand my point.  So many variables and between electric and which type of connection you use.......;). YMMV.  

DAve/Troy, I am not going into your sales pitch in this thread. I have way too much respect for Matt and everyone has learned over your posts in other threads, that you are always correct adn your gear is best regardless of cost, until some of us go and audition it in your home/store.  We will leave it at that out of respect for Matt.

by Matt:


There are are some great points made recently:

1) a well done $10k system can sound better then a poorly done $100k system. 
2) gear is system dependent and matching is everything!
3) declare the signature of your system with a primary component like speakers, amp or pre-amp and then adjust flavor with all other components. 
4) your gear may sound awesome in your system and not so great in someone else’s. 
5) your audition of a piece of equipment may have been suboptimal due to poor implementation of the unit. 

All great stuff!!!

Yes, this is a long thread and to me, the best I've personally read on the forums.  As has been discussed so many times on in this thread, it's totally about not just implementation , but all the other digital variables that everyone will have in their own room.  Some of the isolation devices/set ups work GREAT and help tremendously.  Only a few makers of gear have implemented any of these in their devices as most don't even offer ethernet connection for the source.  Ayre has an optical isolation device right in front of their ethernet input daughter board.  It's a very expensive say to implement ethernet, but it sounds great.

Steve, have you ever heard of this or tried this on your devices?  I ask you, only because I know you and how much R&D you personally do.  

This is ONLY for manufacturer's in this thread if I may ask.  For those of you who even have an ethernet connection, do you also do optical isolation?  I have a strong feeling that eventually we are going to see many DAC's use this connection option and many servers will eventually output this way.  Most folks will never want to set their own device up, and it seems to the lay person a great way to get rid of some of the nasties in this type of connection.  Thanks. so much.  Hope I haven't ruffled any feathers as that's the last thing I want to do. Thanks.

Ketch, how are you man?  Call me this weekend.  I have been thinking about you.  Thanks for sharing this.  I have The Memory Player coming in with integrated DAC, so I won't have to concern myself with USB or Ethernet, lol.  I'm hoping that they can figure out the Roon situation also and soon as I do want to use it if possibly (without it hurting the SQ).  This is the same player Matt is using, but he has an external DAC.  

Great to see you post...let's catch up.

I was looking at that also. My server will have the DAC installed, so I don't worry about this connection.  I just like this idea and hope it works out.  

We talk about introducing jitter on ethernet, but what about the ethernet connection from my Eero mesh router into my server?  Should I try optical isolation here or just a nice ethernet cable only?  Just curious what Steve and others think (Ketch???) 

Thanks Steve.  So should I use one of my extra LPS's with my router and my modem? I have two extra's from Wyred for Sound sitting there that I can use for both of them I think (any reason I couldn't?).  

Ok, so now I won't freak out about not using this LPS unit that I purchased.  I will use it for the router.  

Ketch, you need to call later today if you are able to.  We really need to catch up.  I read Steve's thoughts on the optical conversion and added jitter.  I am now wondering if one of the filters may be better sounding.  

I think that's one of the biggest things in the basic ethernet connection to the network for servers etc..  I stream Tidal, so I need to be hooked up to the net.  Probably going to use the Audioquest Diamond ethernet to the Eero nest type router.  If this IS my set up eventually, I need to figure out (with help guys ;) ) what filter or isolation to do.  Thanks all.  

Thanks for posting Ketch.  great stuff and we will catch up later this week. I sent you a message (don't ever see PM on AG.).

Matt, really looking forward to you getting some time for YOU!  I look forward to that, more than the reviews and video's, lol.....

Wow, what a treat.  Finally got to Matt's house (thanks Sam for driving)!  Wonderful room adn system guys.  It was a true treat for a guy like me to enjoy 'guy' time with two close friends and also listen to a serious system.  Got to enjoy time with the Lampy and then his Light Harmonic.  Changing to that Crystal interconnect put the soundstage in better position and just allowed the music to flow much freer.  We talk about cables and who difference they make.  For those doubters you need to go to Matt's house to listen.  

If you don't think even a basic interconnect will make a difference, then I can't take your thoughts seriously anymore, lol.  It was a true component upgrade.  It gave it a soundstage that the other didn't really have.  I get that when I went up in the Audioquest line and have heard similar with other cables.  Not all cables in someone's line will be great and price isn't always the factor.  Silver is HARD to work with (Steve will attest to that I'm sure) and most don't do it correctly.  When it's done right it's a holy cow moment for teh whole system.  

I thought the Lampy was nice sounding.  Not my cuppa, but tube guys seem to have a blast with it and it's a pretty box to boot.  Matt's Davinci took the system to level's above to my ears.  That takes nothing way from the Lampy. I don't know which one it was, nor the cost, but the Davinci lists for much more I'd think.  

My biggest take away is that I can't wait to get my www.thememoryplayer.com. I heard it in two systems yesterday and the last one was with Rockport Lyra's, the large Solution amps and the Behold preamp.  It has the Telos grounding system throughout and the Enklein power cables into the Absolair (Turkey) distributed power boxes. Heck, the master tapes playing on the modded and rebuilt Apex tape deck was SICK.  Also I enjoyed that Kronos TT set up.  

What a great day that turned out to be and the brotherhood of Matt and Sam was the main part of the day.  It was the Federation of the Jewish Audiophile Brotherhood! ;). 

Guys, I messed up. Saw a lot and wiht the MS, I can forget some details for sure.  It was the Elrod top power cords.  Look like a python swallowing a small animal, lol.

Thanks Matt.  As you know I totally agree with what you heard.  What surprised me is that tubes are inherently faster than solid state devices.  I was pretty surprised that it didn't sound faster, but like a nice Harbeth, it was really musical.

Matt said "Ricred1- I endeavor to compare apples to apples and try to give all the information I can. You absolutely need to keep price levels in mind and not compare a $4k DAC to a $14k DAC. There are a few excellent performers in each price range. I have heard enough to know there really is no such thing as a “giant killer,” so don’t be fooled. There is no $4k DAC that outperforms the best of the $10k region. There are great $4k dacs that sound better then bad $12k dacs. But no one is going to buy a bad $12k DAC unless it offers something specific that they want.

There are great dacs at every price point. We are very lucky."

Who says folks won't buy that crappy 12k DAC?  Many will buy on price or because someone on the internet told them how great it is (someone who works for said company, lol ;) )....LOL...

sorry, I couldn't help it. ha. Back to the regularly scheduled program.  

Also, I was VERY impressed by Matt's DAC and The Music Server.  What a pair those are.  I have another very close friend who owns both and says the same thing.  It's a great reference and if someone comes up with the next mouse trap that beats those two, then WOW...are we all lucky.

Which post was removed?  What happened? LOL...Was the bluejeans post removed because it looked like an ad?  I cna't keep up, lol.

In any case I have enjoyed the Diamond cable from Audioquest, the WW cables (they just make great digital cables (I own their optical one and it's astounding for an optical cable), Steve Nuggents USB cable, the Light Harmonic Matt has is cool and great sounding too.  There are lot's of choices, but it's hard to go wrong with the WireWorld cables on digital transmission.  I know many who love them.  It's teh only non Audioquest cable that's in my system right now.

I'm very familiar with that cup and to my ear, it was like most of the Sim Audio gear.  It's fatiguing to me as well as a few others I'm close with.  It doesn't matter what type of dac design George.  There are good and bad on all sides and just because you say that it is hard to get anything better for Redbook today, is just a personal choice.  You feel it is and that's great and I'm happy for you.  To many of us it's not even close.  

disclaimer:  I've owned both types of dac architecture and loved them both at the time I've owned them.  

Maybe it was the rest of the system George, but that's what I heard each time I've heard teh Simaudio.  If I have a chance to listen again, I will as long as it's not with similar gear that I've heard it with already. I've never said never about any company as they can always change sound signature.  

Thanks Steve.  I forgot to get to the Fed EX to send teh SM in for the upgrade.  Been dealing with wife's back surgery the last few weeks.  

Hang in there bud.  

So excited to get the Syncrho Mesh back.  Thanks for the upgrade Steve!!  Matt has been swamped at work the last few months.  I don't think the TotalDac is even there yet.  I know that he's getting to play with the Elrod and Enklein power cords though.  

.I wanted to let folks know that Matt is writing for TAS and another pub (sorry Matt, I forgot which one).  For those who talk to him and know him, he's a great writer and very thorough in his reviews.  I'm blessed to have found this thread years ago as we've become very good friends and I never would have known about Empirical Audio and Steve, who I also consider a good acquaintance.  I found out about other smaller digital companies who push the boundaries.  Lot's of great new digital gear has been found by many, because of this wonderful thread.

Heck, Matt even talked me into the The Memory Player by Laufer.  Sam even built a DAC into mine and it's world class.  

I'm sure Matt will let me know when he gets your Mojo in his set up.  I'm sure it will sound great like so many of the newer DAC's do.  This is still my favorite thread on the boards.

I've heard the new top of the line MSB and thought it was very good.  I would have needed to spend more time with it to tell more, but it has promise.  Just very expensive.  I have heard the newest Rossini two weeks ago (is the brand new one out?  If so, this was it.  I didn't ask if it was the brand new one as I was auditioning the new Boulder amp so didn't care).  It was very good, but like most of the DCS digital, it's a bit sterile for my ears.  Gobs of detail and it is very 'fast'.  It always leaves me a tad cold in the mids as do many digital products.  

At this level you are talking about shade differences.  Folks will have their own flavors they like better.  I personally need to get my new DAC/Server burned in, but so far on 24/192 as well as 32/384 all in WAV, it is going to be a contender as a ultra high end DAC.  It's a brand new design by Sam Laufer's company.  Mine is installed in my Memory Player.  It uses two signal tubes and dual AK boards for proper balanced design.  Very little filtering.  I'm going to learn more about it technically, but don't care as I want it to burn in before I make a real evaluation.  We are also waiting on the Stealth bypass caps for it so the sound will change again and hopefully for the better.  

I'll keep you all posted, but I was concerned about the DAC in the MP, but this brand new design is just sick and it's the first one they've made so far.  

Yes it's the one designed by Mark and sold by Sam.  Even their mini server is outstanding based on what a friends who own's one says.  It's highly programable.  Matt owns the stand alone server and loves it better than any other server he's used.  

Oh, you also asked about my affiliation.  I have no affiliation with anyone.  I put my money where my mouth is and purchased one.  I change equipment when it makes sense to me and I can afford to.  Folks often accuse me of being a fan boy for companies, but that's not the case at all.  I have changed all my brands more than a few times, but I don't change every couple of years like many do.  I find what works great in my system and stay with it for some years.  I may upgrade within a product line, but that's because I love the house sound and it fits my needs.

Long answer to a short question I guess.  It's just a darn good product.  I don't own my Ayre QX5 anymore, but I feel strongly that is a must audition DAC in the 6-15k market as it's darn good.  Highly detailed and still not bright in any way.  It also have a nice streamer built in (not as good as some other streamers I've heard, but darn good) and versatile as heck.  For my personal tastes, you need to step up to a Brinkmann at around 18k I think (not totally sure) to get a much better DAC. That Brinkmann isn't spoken about on this thread. I think that's in part because they aren't huge in the US yet and because their folks are probably enjoying their music and not posting on sites like this, lol.  I'm not kidding either.  Their DAC is special   VERY special.  

No, others call me a fanboy, lol.  I hate that term. Hey, we are on a fun forum and will tout what we put our money on.  I also audition a ton of gear and will tout what I like or don't like. Then it's up to the reader to figure out how they hear compared to what I like or dislike or any poster/dealer/manufacturer or reviewer.  

I now own the Laufer DAC adn Memory Player server.  It's the first one 'in the wild' and we they are making constant tweeks and upgrades.  We are currently waiting on Stealth Caps to come in and are moving the DAC out of the server.  Better isolation etc...  It has a well done digital volume control as well as an analog as I will be getting a pair of mono's or separate stereo amp eventually. I wanted that in my DAC.  I also like how they listen to me and try to make what I need.  

There are other great manufacturer's out here and that's great for all of us.  Hey, Empirical Audio makes a tremendous DAC.  I loved mine and it wasn't even Steve's top of the line.  I am not doing to sell his server that he sold to me since I now have the Memory Player, but he's a genius in regards to audio.

I've heard many other digital products that are impressive.  It's a great time to go digital and many of us can no longer play vinyl for mobility reasons (having MS, I can't' keep getting up and down to change things and to keep everything as clean as it needs to be to be in top shape).  Also digital does many things better than vinyl and when you lower jitter and take away much of the problems associated with older digital, it can sing.

Thanks Matt.  I agree with you on our Memory Player server.  I'm really pumped about what they are doing with my DAC.  Can't wait until he gets the Stealth Caps in and he can start to build it so I can get my full set up breaking in. 

My prototype DAC update.  Spoke with Sam today.  He has the cabinet in for the power supply and is ordering the StealthCaps.  He's going to extract the DAC from my Memory player in two weeks and then rebuild it and make a lot of changes.  I can't wait to get it back and burned in. Sounds like it will be a full month before that will happen, but so far this is such a great DAC. I was told the StealthCaps will take it to another level adn I know he's upgrading the tubes. By putting the power supply in it's own fully shielded box, he will be able to do something special with the power feeding the tubes too.  Digital is going through a major transition period right now.  I think we are seeing better quality at lower costs.  

Wow, I just realized I'm on my 5th DAC since this thread started. I rarely upgrade that often.  Never had until I met Matt...thanks a lot.  ;)....

Vernon, let's talk, lol....  I have the digital pre built in as well as an analog.  I haven't used either yet as I have Vandersteen's and can't use a pre yet...also having an integrated won't allow that either, lol.  If I had an external crossover for the Quatro's, I'd have Sam bring one of his larger amps over the house to try it out that way.  The NEWEST MP is just sick.  I have the FULLY tricked out one. 

As I said earlier, Sam is pulling my internal DAC out to make it a full 3 box solution with the power supplies in a totally separate box.  can't wait.

Yes there is a lot of great digital out here now and it’s getting better as we go. So many great options. There is no 1 best. All depends on what we have for a system and how we listen. When I installed the new Hurricane cords to my system the SQ went to a new level.  That told me that all digital is so dependent on power. Probably more than analog.  

Jh901- i agree.

I have a Shunyata Denali for my front end rack and run my amps direct into the wall. I use all Shunyata Sigma PC except from Denali to Preamp. I use an Enklein DAVID for that. It’s amaizng.

My room uses the top level DTX-D-NCF Furutech outlets, all 10 gauge stranded copper wire (with every run exactly the same length to avoid ground loops) and utilizes Environmental Protections EP-2750 ground filters on each circuit and an EP-2050 surge protection system on my dedicated sub panel. Each outlet has its own breaker.

I have a video on my YouTube channel that describes and shows the whole thing.

Been preaching this for a long time now.  If you can afford to run dedicated circuits to you listening room, do it. You won't be sorry.  I have two in the room.  I move the wall that I have the system on and will have the electrician come in to move each circuit to the new wall.  I'll plug the amps directly into the wall (each one is grounded via copper spike deep into the ground) and then plug the Niagara into the other outlet and all source components into the Niagara.  It's been an incredible power deal for sure. 

Sold my server that Steve Nugent built. Ran on a Hynes SR5 highly modified by Steve.  Great unit.  The buyer, a great guy, drove up to pick it up.  He listened to my system for an hour or so.  He was shocked at how good it sounded.  He was particularly impressed by the Laufer Teknik Memory Player with internal DAC that I keep posting about here and on a few other boards.  It's not even set up properly yet and the DAC is prototype as I've said, but it's really special already. 

I'm really intrigued by where digital is right now and where it's headed.  What I find interesting is that the best way to keep up right now seems to be with the one to three person companies who are constantly upgrading the software.  They also upgrade the hardware constantly adn offer customers the upgrades as minimal costs so that you can keep up with state of the art easier than with the major companies. 

I'm sure may of you will disagree and that's fine as it will have to be an agree to disagree.  There are just so many good options we all have now.

Matt has been swamped this past year.  Not sure how much he's been able to do in audio.

I'm waiting on my Laufertechnique DAC to be cased and completed. Hopefully soon.  When it was inside their server it blew me away. I never expected it to sound that good. I have a feeling their new two box solution will be world class and have to be in this discussion of 'best' and not just 'best for price range'.

Music, happy for you.  I too have TMP with the integrated DAC.  Sam is upgrading the DAC as we speak. I can't wait to get it back with all that high res music.  It really is special.  I've heard many of the top servers out there and so far nothing comes close. The way they lower jitter is crazy.  

I also got to hear the updated Rossini and the external clock.  It was ok without the clock, but the clock takes it to another level.  I wish I could get one in my house once my Memory Player gets back as I'd love to go neck and neck.  Laufertechnique is crazy good, especially for the price.  

Hope we can keep this fun thread going, even though Matt is now a big time reviewer, lol...;).  

Getting my The Memory Player back in a few weeks.  They are encasing it in a new design that I'm stoked about.  We've decided to keep the DAC inside the new sculpted box as they have totally separated adn isolated the power supply for TMP server as well as the DAC.  The new chassis is a cool design, but I'll let LauferTechnik share that info when they are ready (can't give away their marketing, lol).  

So pumped as the Stealth Caps are being installed this time around.  Cleaner layout inside with the new case, so that's pretty cool too.  I"m also glad that I'll be able to chose an external blue ray drive to record with.  I like an external drive that can be stored away when not needed and if it breaks, I can go get a new one. Also have the option to get one of the stack loaders to rip with (have any of you used one of these?).

Would love info on choosing the right ripper from you guys as I have over 2k CD's to drop into the HD.

My buddy is distributing the Allnic gear nad wants you to get their phone stage, lol.  ;) 

I only record in WAV.  Does dbpoweramp record in WAV too?

Thanks for sharing.  I think mine is WAV64.  It was downloaded by Sam, so I'm not sure.  I also don't use Roon yet, but want to down the line. I know he's be swamped with a lot of business stuff as well as some personal stuff.  Not an excuse, but his business is at the point where he may need to grow and add help.  I can't adn won't speak for him, but I know he's dealing with a lot.  

I agree that it's the best server I've ever heard and I've heard a ton of them in the upper price ranges.  I know that the DAC he built into mine is insanely good.  I don't think he's going to be doing many of these DAC's if any going forward, but it competes with anything I've heard under 25k (recently auditioned the brand new Rossini and matching clock.  He's installing some new components, including StealthCaps, so I'm excited to get it back and burned in.  

Looks like I'll be getting TMP/DAC back in a couple of weeks or so. I can't wait to get music again.  Sam is also going to help me mount my speakers on their new 3" granite plinths.  I had them glue the slabs with a special silicone glue for vibration purposes.  Let's see if they make a difference.  I have a feeling it will take them up a few notches.  I have a friend who has sworn by this.  Vandersteen uses this set up for him top model 7's.  Can't wait.

everyone I know who owns his gear loves it.  Cult following.  Another option that isn't in that price range, but easily plays in that league is the new Aesthetix Mimas integrated.  Jim White is a genius in his execution. It is a full on integrated with a DAC card or phono stage.  it's worth a listen. Not the last bastion of detail, but HIGHLY musical, engaging and emotional. 

Matt, could we say the Harbeth of integrated's?  LOL....

Matt, the built in Laufer Technik DAC is crushing it (built into my Memory Player server which is by far the best server I've ever heard).  Just open, dynamic, Tuneful...you name it and it's doing it.  I know he's got a new tube to bring over for it next week that will raise the bar even more.

Guys, this is a prototype that Sam and Mark are about to break out and put in it's own box.  I don't know what they plan on charing for this one, but they have decided to bring it to market.  I've heard my prototype go from sounding nice to very good to outstanding.  Every change and rebuild had taken it to the next level.  The new cases will be stunning also. 

Right now there are so many great DAC's in the 10k ish range, that's it's awesome.

Yes George, you will post as often as you can about the R2R, even though many of us feel that there are other designs that we feel sound better than any of the R2R's we've heard to date.  Both have their strengths and weaknesses.  That's the reality.  

Heck, Steve Nugent has made both types of DAC;s and is preferring non R2R right now for many reasons.  

Lot's of great DAC's out now in all price ranges.  

I've heard a lot of the top DAC's and some were chips and some were ladder types.  Every top designer I've spoken with have played with both and feel that the newer chips, if implemented properly will perform better than the ladder types.  

That said some of my favorite DAC's do use ladder type and some use traditional DAC chips.  When folks make blanket statements as you do and probably always will, you lose credibility.  There are multiple ways to skin a cat and that's reality especially when the chips are getting better and better.  

#respectothers

Reverendo, if you are serious about the DaVinci MK2, I know someone who is about to sell. Feel free to DM me if you have interest.  He's got two of the best DAC's money can buy in the house.  One is the larger Davinci that was just redone I believe.  I can't share the other one just yet.  

You're doing great @mattnshilp lol.  I wish I still had my sub to TAS.  I'll have to wait until it's free to read.  Ha....

You really are a strong writer/reviewer.  Always have been and it's fun to read (and then chat about, lol. ha).