Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Each to his own, as for what just I heard, no, there were 8 of us.
We all thought the Bricasti was the sweeter and less in your face with poor quality pcm cd's
.
But with good to very good cd's the Total was more detailed had better bass, dynamics and had a jump factor that the Bricasti couldn't come close to.
  
And Kramer being a reviewer and has to compare review equipment to what he has, and wanted the best warts and all (even if playing poor cd's) and not to be kind to them.

Cheers George 

mattnshilp OP790 posts01-21-2018 5:21amWho would buy a total piece of Schitt like that?!!

Sorry. Had to be done!! 😇

All class Matt, wrap it in a glitzy $kkkkkkk chassis, and you’d be all over it like a rash.

Sorry. Had to be done!! 😇

mattnshilp OPWho would buy a total piece of Schitt like that?!!

Sorry. Had to be done!! 😇

david_ten Matt, You may have intended it as a joke, but it does not read like a joke. I can see how the second line "Sorry, Had to be done!!" would lead one to a very different conclusion.

+1 David, I noticed his post is now removed, but it went a bit deeper than that, from way back.

Quote mattenshlip: "Hi guys. For the first time on this thread, I'm putting an end to this. No more R2R commentary and no responses. You have made your opinion very very clear. If you want to continue I encourage you to start your own thread about how awesome you think R2R is to the exclusion of all else."  

Cheers George

George, respectfully, knock it off.

Ah, respectfully that’ll be a big no! If you don’t like what you read, either don’t read it, or you can try to use the report button.

Cheers George

mattnshilp OP
I have to admit this Mystique V3 is growing on me. It’s stupid good for the money! It has a sense of natural presentation, texture and harmonics while still attaining accuracy and clarity that is hard to achieve. It’s intimate when it needs to be, and big and voluptuous when asked to be. I’d put it comfortably in the “if it were twice as expensive I wouldn’t think twice” category.

Anyone looking in this price range would be doing themselvesto not consider the Mystique. It’s REALLY

Who would have thought, "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD",   with R2R Ladder Multibit dac

I came to the conclusion that a 20-bit R-2R ladder DAC has the purest form of PCM decoding.

Combine that with the fact that over 80% of all the recorded music commercially available is only available in 16-bit 44.1KHz PCM, and you now know why I chose to engineer my Mystique DACs the way I do ;-)

 
Tried to explain this year or so ago Benjamin for PCM redbook replay, but they were so caught up in the Delta Sigma dsd storm, they couldn't see the forest through the trees.

Cheers George

elizabeth
One of my complaints about SACD is they all seem to have no ’room’ played in. The music all seems to ’magically’ float out of a black hole.

mitch2
Interestingly, this is in the ballpark of describing my issue with the Class D amplification I have owned.

charles1dad
This goes against the grain but it is what I consistently hear. Interesting that you’ve had similar findings. The "inky black" (black hole as you put it) background devoid of any sense of ambience (room) presence always struck me as artificial and un-natural.

These to me are the results of stripping of the harmonic structure of the music and leaving nothing but a dead black hole/silence, "there is not much decay left to see or hear back into".

This is what Delta Sigma/Mash did when it was first released back in 1990 and still does now to Redbook PCM conversion, it gives a facsimile of the real thing, where R2R Multibit is bit perfect.

And it’s also what Class-D does to amplification. This maybe helped with future technology, with 3, 4 or 5 times higher switching frequency, so the output filters can do their job properly and get rid of all the switching noise completely without coming near the upper harmonics of the audio band.

Cheers George

With all due respect to George I’m inclined more toward Elizabeth’s explanation in attributing the void or black hole effect to the recording method or process.
  I don’t believe that delta sigma can be the blamed in a broad brush fashion as the culprit.

 I love the fact that there are so many manufacturers now bringing back R2R Multibit, even though many are now mostly discrete ladder, and expensive to make, and shrugging off dsd, for better pcm replay.
It says to me  there was something about PCM conversion that was not quite right when done with DS conversion.

Owning and doing many mods for myself and customers on both with I/V stages and output stages from the very first DS mash players and R2R players And listening to many.
 There is something missing with DS when it has to convert PCM, it's not just an emptiness, but missing a bogie factor that gives excitement to the music, and a snap your head back slam, even though the DS measurements show better sn/dr figures.

It's as though DS converting PCM is most of the time too polite, eg: boring. But it does do dsd/sacd well, but I still find it lacking in excitement with these formats especially sacd..

Cheers George   

  
That fine for you, but sorry it's what I've heard with many A/B's in my own system and with others. To me PCM done with DS is akin to amplification being done with Class-D

I'm with fuzzbutt17 (Benjamin from Mojo Audio) and yet to hear different, to me the best pcm conversion is not done with DS.
   
You have to ask yourself why are there so are many (expensive) discrete and "chip versions (egSchiit)" R2R lader dac's now being made that are made in Europe, GB, China, US ect,  just to do PCM with, and not even able to do DSD, crazy marketing if it had nothing to better to give.
 
Why go to that bother and expense with a "so called" dying Redbook format. When these guys can get say the top line ESS Sabre dac chip for a fraction of the price, with digital domain volume control and all sorts of other goodies, and be able to do DSD.

Cheers George

especially the hybrid designs that have 6 bits in depth.

That's right, the last great full 24bit R2R chip was the PCM1704 and is unobtainable now because of massive manufacturing costs, having to laser trim those resistors. 

The competition to them is now coming from these newer hybrid dacs with 6 or so bits, a lot of the top end guys are using them, maybe one day they'll be able to make full 24bit again like the PCM1704 as cheap as the the DS from ESS and others, and we'll get back to proper conversion of PCM again, instead of a facsimile of it with DS.

Cheers George      

Honestly he lost me again when he said something about Schitt beimg an expensive discrete.....::::

BTW ct, Have to correct you here as well, I didn’t say that read again.
  
Expensive was in reference to "discrete" R2R dacs
  
And "chip" versions which if you know are cheaper, which Schiit Yaggy uses, and the best bang for buck you can get, for converting PCM Redbook.

Cheers George

Steve N who by all accounts has been successful manufacturing R2R and DS DACs and is a credentialed source

Yes Charles but as I said not discrete R2R. he has to use either DS or the Hybrid.
Or he could purchase "discrete" R2R made boards from Sokeris Audio Engineering but he’ll loose his dsd capability, which means nothing to me, as it was pcm before it became that.


Here as of 2017 (more now) are the companies now doing expensive to produce "discrete" R2R ladder dacs for PCM (Redbook) replay. Schiit uses a R2R chip (not for audio) but for missile guidance as there are none now available for audio use, because DS was so much cheaper to make.

Up to $3k: Border Patrol, Monarchy, Denafrips, Audio-gd, MHDT, Holo, Soeskris, Metrum, Schiit

$5-$15K: Audio Note, MSB, Metrum, Computer Audio Design, Aqua, LessLoss, Totaldac, Lampizator

$15K+: CH Precision, Aries Cerat, Light Harmonic, Audio Note, MSB, Totaldac, Lampizator

**Special mention to MSB, Monarchy and Audio Note, who never gave up R2R. Even after the takeover of delta-sigma.



Cheers George

 I don’t hear this purported advantageous asset with comparisons as stated earlier.

That fine if you can't, but I do with CD's 16/44 or the magic sounding Reference Recordings 24/96 CD's that have HDCD encoded which my Linn CD12 thankfully can do with the PMD200 chip.

The best which I've yet to hear from what I've been told is DXD.
I've heard the defunct DVD-A which was very good, better than the Reference Recordings above it's a pity it didn't take off. 

This is a good read from MSB Technologies, they use R2R Ladder in their top line dacs. (big bucks)

 http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/why-ladder-dacs/

Cheers George

TotalDac (bit perfect) outperformed by the delta sigma Bricasti SE in a friend’s system I listened to extensively. .

Funny you mentioned these two, we had exactly this shoot out for a whole day on a reviewers system at his place in the beautiful Blue Mtns on his Wilson Alexia MkII, Gryphon Antillion Evo Signature my passive pre. We also went direct, with the same results.
The Total dac was far better than the Bricasti in every area, even the owner of the Bricasti SE conceded, and is going to sell it to go to R2R.

Don’t get me wrong the Bricasti was lovely and sweet and smooth, but not exciting when compared, it had no jump factor like the Total, that snapped your head back in disbelief with some of the dynamics, and yet it still stayed sweet and smooth when needed.
You could hear deeper into the music because of this expanse from quiet to loud. And it gave all this to you not from the speaker but all around it with an image and depth that washed over you instead of directed from the each of the drivers of the speakers, as if the speakers weren't there in the room.

Cheers George

Did they even use the same interface?

??? Of course we did.

Cheers George

We had 5 techs, 3 non techs at our meeting and were all insistent on perfect level matching.
All levels were matched overhaul not by spl by ear or meter but by the voltage down to the mV fed into the speakers at differing sine waves with a tech cd to get the levels absolutely identical to the mV 
And the Total Dac 7 with larger optional off board power supply, was by far the better, with PCM Redbook replay.

Cheers George  

This is NOT a thread on R2R vs PCM technolog.

" Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" 
Sorry but you being the OP headed this.  

That's why it went down that path again after you gave such a good report of the R2R Multibit   "Mojo Mystique V3"  with comments like this.

SO, if you are looking for a single ended DAC you’d be a fool to not listen to the sub $6K single ended Mystique V3!

Of course, DSD lovers need not apply.

Then it's about "best for PCM RedBook" as you stated. And of course the talk will come down to technology.

I hope you do some more Matt from the list below, as it will broaden your horizons on what constitutes an great pcm RedBook dac.
  
As I posted there are many discrete R2R ones now being made (below) as R2R chip converters are unobtainable except for the military missile guidance one that Shiit uses, hopefully they do come back as manufacturing techniques improve to laser trim all those microscopic resistors to a minuscule % .0000001% or less without the massive costs of doing it.
There is a large market for them to come back to, if Delta Sigma can't in the future get the sound from PCM that these R2R's can, but I do admit the 6bit hybrid DS's are getting closer, maybe they just need to go the full wack to 24bit with no DS who knows. Just keep DS for DSD/SACD conversion. 

Up to $3k: Border Patrol, Monarchy, Denafrips, Audio-gd, MHDT, Holo, Soeskris, Metrum, Schiit

$5-$15K: Audio Note, MSB, Metrum, Computer Audio Design, Aqua, LessLoss, Totaldac, Lampizator

$15K+: CH Precision, Aries Cerat, Light Harmonic, Audio Note, MSB, Totaldac, Lampizator

**Special mention to MSB, Monarchy and Audio Note, who never gave up R2R. Even after the takeover of delta-sigma.

Cheers George

Did you really only use a passive preamp or direct to DAC for this DAC comparison?

If you bother to have read it, we also went direct. And there was a preamp (that I didn’t want to mention as Mick Maloney is an acquaintance of mine but seeing you want to know)

The reviewer who’s system we used is Edgar Kramer of Audio Esoterica, Australian HiFI, 6 moons, and is also the principal of Soundstage Australia, and if you bother to do some work you’ll find he also has a Supratek DHT Reference which was used but taken out as it didn’t give what the other configurations gave, as it was too coloured.

https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/84-wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-series-2-lo...

This would give the Total DAC a big advantage, as its output is 6.4 Vrms max, compared to the Briscasti’s 2 Vrms.

Absolutely no advantage whatsoever, helps if you know about input sensitivity that the Gryphone Antillion only needs 1v in to give it’s full power out. The Bricasti has more than enough to clip the Gryphone if it needs to.


Cheers George

Sometimes it can work out, but a good preamp, usually tubes will make the playing field much more fair for DAC shootouts. 

Yes a tube pre will equalise the sound qualities in a shootout, with it's own colourations.

DACs just don't have the low output impedance that a good preamp will have.

In regards to the Total or the Bricasti output stages this is definitely not true. They are every bit as good as any preamps output stage. I'll pick on the Bricasti seeing it's jut a smidgen behind the Total in regards to drive and output impedance.

The Total and Bricasti's discrete solid state output stages will shame "nearly" all tube preamps in output impedance and current drive ability, and many solid state pre's as well, in regards to be able to drive into amps with resistive and or capacitive hard loads  

The Bricasti's output stage tested driving into a punishing 600ohm load
https://www.stereophile.com/images/212BM1fig12.jpg

This is tube pre PS Audio BHK Signature that has a very good rep (for a tube) to be able into hard loads, into the same 600ohm load as the Bricasti.
 https://www.stereophile.com/images/617ps.PSABHKfig6.jpg

Here is an  Ayre solid state with 31ohms output impedance with good cred for driving low load impedance's. With the same 600ohm load
https://www.stereophile.com/images/611AK5fig5.jpg


Cheers George

SimAudio was still making high end CDPs that could cull every detail out of a paltry 16/44 CD.

This was an extremely good sounding SimAudio cdp, that used R2R ladder dacs and had a separate power supply, hard to get anything today that can do Redbook that well.

http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/414643-simaudio_moon_eclipse_cd_mint.jpg

SIMAUDIO MOON ECLIPSE

4 x PCM1704-K dacs   DF1704 – PMD100  Philips CD-Pro 2 (VAU1254)

Cheers George

It’s fatiguing to me as well as a few others I’m close with. It doesn’t matter what type of dac design George.

I believe I was responding to 1graber2, unless I’m mistaken, but then anything can get some bristling, like they have a "word" trigger, R2R perhaps???
And to describe the SIMAUDIO MOON ECLIPSE as fatiguing is ......well? All I can say is go and have another listen.

Cheers George

david_ten2,138 posts
@ everyone Any recommendations for an upper tier DAC with a very well implemented volume control? I’m looking for DAC first components (and not Preamps with a DAC module...if that makes sense...). Thanks.

I believe they still do it in their flagship model dacs or cdp. either by user programming or physical links or trimpots.
But Wadia, Mark Levinson and the Bricasti M1 used digital domain remote volume controls, but they also had the ability to set the max output gain of the analogue output buffer, so that you used the digital domain volume at or near full output, so there was no chance of "bit stripping" (lowering resolution 16bit 14bit 12bit the lower you go)
This is the perfect dac /cdp volume control.

Cheers George

From the website, this dac appears to deploy the same prime R2R modules (used in all the higher up models);
If anyone here has heard/bought this compelling looking model please chime in

👍
Correct, I have an MSB discrete dac also, as this thread is supposed to be all about
" Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"

I can still keep saying as I’ve always said way back, no other conversion topology comes close to R2R Multibit for doing PCM 16/44,  26/96 or DXD

Cheers George

There is just something out on the edges of the information that sounds more natural when it’s R2R.

Yes, I think it’s called "dynamic contrast" and it breaths life and jump factor into the music,when converting PCM 16/44 24/96 or dxd, I have thousands of CD’s and that's the title to this thread, don’t know and don’t care about dsd.

Cheers George

One of the most watched threads fizzled out? Wth?

They the "clan" here were doggedly stuck on their views of what sounded best for RedBook CD, which they thought was DS (delta sigma) based units, and they tried every new unit that came along.

I mentioned to them that R2R Ladder was the future for PCM Redbook, but couldn't shift them off DS conversion.

I tried to get them to take on board the new class of R2R Ladder dac units, especially the latest breed of "Discrete" R2R ones, but I was shot down time I mentioned it. In the end I just gave up.
The old adage, "time will tell".

Cheers George  

so I don’t know what GeorgeHiFi is even talking about

Yes you do, your next statement below proves it.

Contrary to what George has been screaming from his soap box forever about R2R being the ONLY way to go, a good DAC is not just about the DAC chip. It is a sum of its’ parts and design elegance.

Don’t twist things, it’s the D to A conversion process that’s foremost, and yes the other things are important also.
I always maintained R2R was the best way for RedBook to be converted,  which is (PCM 16/44 24/96 and DXD), which is the title to your thread. "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" https://youtu.be/MMzd40i8TfA

Matt you just promoted what you were reviewing at the time which was all DS ESS stuff back then, you couldn’t get any of the new discrete R2R stuff, so it was bagged every time I bought it up as being the best conversion process for RedBook!!! The tile of this thread!!

END OF STORY!!

I know I said over and out, but I can’t let this BS go on.

Not that I wan to engage George.

Well you just did again, and still can’t see the forest for the trees

Even though the mega dollar dac you "owned for years" (Light Harmonic Da Vinci) uses two different dacs, Larry Ho went to the trouble of doing both with, for PCM (R2R) and for DSD (Delta Sigma) 

Known facts:
R2R Ladder converts PCM (redbook 16/44 24/96 and DXD) "bit perfect"
Delta Sigma conversion does sacd (dsd), but can only give a "facsimile" of PCM RedBook

Once again,https://jonathanpearson.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/forest.png or there’s some other "unmentioned" reason.

And this is about what your!! title of this thread is all about,

ABSOLUTE TOP TIER DAC FOR STANDARD RES REDBOOK CD

not streaming or downloading!

I really don’t because he is SO one sided.

Now that is really the pot calling the kettle black

Thank god/ Yahweh or whatever for that👌

luisma31 despite of the possible flaws ladder dacs might have I personally prefer these over DS. I totally agree with science. OMG I’m listening to an almost 1st pressing original house of the holy I got from Discogs

Get the original 1988 uncompressed version they are the least compressed, I buy them used on eBay for a couple of dollars each. (After doing many a/b’s I will not stream or download anymore)
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/177624
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/128355
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/73353
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/76394

Stay away from the later re-issues now for streaming or downloading they are far more compressed, probably to save space?
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/77643
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/77644
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/105879
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/77643

R2R dacs really show up the differences in the compression version issues.

Cheers George

Ooops this last one in the 1988 uncompressed list, is 2014 issue and should be in the compressed list below.  
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/76394 

luisma31

Thank you George, I got a 1973 Japanese pressing, near mint, $44, outstanding sonics, will check your links later, appreciate it

Yes all the 73’s and 80’s vinyls, are the same on DRTB all from the master without a doubt, untouched like the 80’s CD’s

All the 73 pressing very good
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/86681

Don’t advise anyone go near the 2014 re-issue vinyl, it’s been compressed like the CD’s.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/76673

Cheers George