Andrew,
Are you having noise issues with DHTs? Honestly my DHT Line Stage and amplifier are about as quiet as one could want.
Charles, |
I'm interested to see if Matt's listening impressions matches Wisnon's enthusiasm for the wireless Goldmund sound quality. |
Andrew,
You seem to have made up your mind about them without actually listening to them. Surprising in that you're one to usually embrace the new and different more readily than someone like me.
Charles, |
Andrew.
Ok, I thought perhaps Wisnon's unbridled enthusiastic report may have been persuasive for you.
Charles, |
Andrew,
If by Asian you're referencing the Audio Exotic crowd, I find them a good barometer for the "really good stuff". I don't believe the Goldmund is argeted towards their taste. I'm certain they'd reject it on being "clinical" and lacking emotion, given what they are usually drawn to. |
Andrew,
I took a chance on aquiring theTripoint Troy based on the overwhelming enthusiasm at AE, well they sure hit the bull's-eye on that one. I strongly suspect that crowd would love Trenner Friedl speakers if given the exposure to their sound. I am interested to see how the TF ISIS works out in Matt's specific room environment, you just don't know how these things will turn out. I believe that in the right situation and under the proper circumstances they are some of the better "realistic" sounding speakers available. So many variables determine an outcome. |
"Too often you have either one or the other" true.
The TF RA Box came as close to having it all (driven by Viva Aurora) as I've heard.
Charles, |
Agear,
I agree 100% with your statement. You have to listen as Matt is effectively demonstrating with his speaker auditions. |
Matt,
What really interests me is how your high powered amplifiers interact with these speakers. Both companies have excellent reputations. Trenner Friedl and Dynaudio have very different design approaches/philosophy and construction/Xovers/drivers etc. One will be a better synergistic fit with "your" amplifier, even though both speakers individually are considered to be terrific. I'm looking forward to your in house audition. Thanks for sharing these experiences.
Charles, |
" Trenner is something to buy when you are done with Hifi"
Andrew that sums up my impression of their appeal as well. They get you directly involved with the music and leave the nervous compulsive behavior to most other speakers. It seems the builder understands the importance of emotion and connecting to music rather than analysis of it. |
Matt,
I believe your admittedly early listening impressions have uncovered the instrinsic character and strength of this speaker. It will only improved with time IMHO. |
It seems clear both the Trenner- Friedl and Dynaudio are world class speakers. As mentioned before, different design philosophy yielding different sonic characters (as one would expect). Matt's earlier amplifier analogy and follow up detailed listening comparison sums it up effectively. Both superb speakers. One appeals more(emotionally) to the heart and soul, the other has outstanding cerebral appeal without being guilty of analytical sterility. So it's a matter of which wears better long term? A listener's inherent bias/taste will determine that. This speaker journey has been fun and interesting to follow. |
Matt,
What amplifier does your neighbor plan to use with the Isis?
Was he impressed with the Dynaudios?
Charles, |
Thank you Matt, I suspect your neighbor will be very happy for many years with this decision. He obviously trusts his ears and that's good. |
Isolationist by default, we're scattered all across the country/world. What choice do we have? Andrew I'd love to checkout your SOTA room. One small obstacle, I'm in Michigan and you're in North Carolina. Not exactly neighbors unfortunately.
Charles, |
Matt,
Congratulations. I hope the Dynaudios keep you very happy for many years. You certainly put in the work and effort to reach this point.
Charles, |
Matt,
Your written descriptions of what you hear is very well done, when you describe the Isis analogy of the comfortable cabin on the mountain top, that sold me as the speaker which stirred the emotions more deeply with more appeal to the soul(well my interpretation anyway 😃). I admit my bias is toward the organic/holistic end of the spectrum. You make it clear both are quite exceptional in your home system. Again this adventure has been fun and informative.
Best Regards,
Charles, |
Ricevs,
Thanks for the informative post. Do you believe that Op amps with their NFB are a "necessary" part? Or is their impact on SQ relatively minor? I, as do most posting here believe implementation/talent is a major factor in determining the overall sound quality. |
My impression is that Agear's comments are tongue in cheek and are meant to be light hearted fun. Many participants on this site often refer to their wives (and for legitimate reasons). Their input does sometimes impose "limits" on what an audiophile husband can do in regard to spending budget and imposition of the audio system in a shared/room/space. That's the simple reality of compromise for many adults who Co habitat. How this common fact can be considered sexist or disrespectful is political correctness gone over the edge. Men and women both have to give (and take) in a happy long term relationship.
Charles, |
If tubes are implemented correctly by a talented designer [Lampizator for example] they can provide fantastic natural sound. I agree with Steve that merely inserting tubes into a DAC won`t automatically yield good results, it isn`t that simple. Solid state analog circuits can sound just as superb with proper execution. I agree with Jwm and Ctsooner. The sound of live instruments have a degree of fullness,tonal warmth and harmonic richness that the "accurate" type components fail to preserve and thus sound relatively bleached and artificial. It`s all a matter of what type of sound a listener desires. I would personally choose natural over hifi accurate. There are DAC choices that satisfy one or the other groups.I believe that simple discrete analog circuits along with a high quality robust power supply have a significant impact on sound quality.
Charles, |
Steve says his roomate preferred the Overdrive DAC over the LampizatOr level 7, that's him. Who knows what type of sound he likes, we all simply have personal tastes and biases. Who knows what Matt likes in sound/music presentation? I certainly have my individual tastes as well. I think LampizatOr nails the realism, and innate beauty of music, just "natural" not hyped hifi. If the Overdrive matches or exceeds Matt's Lampi Big 6 I'll be surprised (and impressed). Should be very interesting.
Charles, |
Ghosthouse,
You make very good points, this issue is more about political ideology than true science. That change from "global warming" to "climate change" did not go un noticed by astute observers. Once I moved away from the NPR and NY Times influence and overt selective bias I began to see how political this topic is(sadly). There are many in sciwnce who dispute the whole model/idea of climate change. The artic caps are expanding, the model incorrectly predicted/said they are diminishing at a raid rate(wrong) I realized you have to seek alternative viewpoints and do lots of reading. Otherwise there's the risk of buying in to agenda driven filtered information. There are numerous meteorologists who say the CO2 CAUSE/EFFECT CLAIMS ARE FLAWED. READ AND LISTEN TO "BOTH" SIDES AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND. This dedate is far from settled.Now we want to mandate what cars free citizens can drive? Many people feel the federal government has become to large and powerful(I agree). What next? what to wear and what to eat? how many children we can have? When is enough, enough? |
+1 Guidocorona thoughts regarding digital and analog. |
Hi Jwm
Is this because you find they all have an identifiable sonic signature or theoretical based on the fact they're class D? Just curious.
Charles, |
Psickerson,
There’s no better comparison between products than having both in your system side by side. I do recognize that all rendered opinions are subjective and only reflect individual taste. No question some will choose the Yggy rather than the Ayre. The converse is also true. You are fortunate to have a direct comparison.
Charles, |
Audio products that sound terrific per the Stereophile viewers and yet measure poorly per JA. This dilemma has been noted by quite a few observers over the years.
Charles |
Al,
+ 1 in regard to the value of the Stereophile measurements as a very effective "initial screening step and assisting in narrowing the field of potential audio candidates. My only observation was the measurements just don't correlate well with a product's sound quality
Charles |
Ctsooner,
Excellent observation and advice. Relaxed body drawn into the music and emotionally connecting. The components that spontaneously and naturally allow this are the superior choice. Toe tapping and head bobbing with the musical flow speak volumes metaphorically.
Charles |
If that current impression holds up, for me it would be Davinci 2 stays and I'd wave bye to the Boulder.😊
Charles |
Sorting out the subtle details of massed strings, voices and continousness of piano are qualities that some listeners say the Lampizator Pacific does in a very natural manner.
Charles |
Hi SteveN,
I appreciate your explanation of the specific differences between R2R architecture and delta sigma. Gdhal’s comments just didn’t correlate with my actual listening experiences of many DACs of both type of designs. Based on hype I had the expectation that R2R May be inherently the superior choice for sound quality but that hasn’t been supported by real world direct listening comparisons.
I completely agree with other posters here that you simply can’t make blanket statements. It truly is a matter fully dependant on overall implementation process unless one chooses to be dogmatic and stubborn in their stance. Excellent sound quality can be achieved with either approach. Delta sigma can sound sublime.
Charles |
Shadorne,
I agree with the marketing vocabulary comment as this is coming from proponents of the R2R approach. To be fair this bias marketing hype can be applied to either side on some occasions.
George regarding Bricasti versus Total DAC I accept you heard what you heard in that system under those particular circumstances. I can state that I heard a direct comparison between the two Dacs in JWM's system and both components were well broken in. Absolare Signature preamplifier, Krell 600 watt mono blocks and Rockport Altair speakers.
In the listening comparison the Bricasti SE was the better sounding presentation in my opinion. Both were using ethernet connectivity. My opinion is no more or less valid than yours. We are both just reflecting on our own experiences with 2 highly regarded DACs.
Charles |
Jeff (Jwm),
Even if you were to hear the MSB 100K dollar DAC and found it to sound exquisitely superb(😊) it still wouldn’t settle any debate in regard to superior D/A conversion. Rather it would speak to A to Z implementation and the "multiple " factors that contribute to a successful audio product.
You’ve been at this a long time and know it’s just a matter of time before the next "best DAC is anointed. Not being critical but you and I know this is the inevitable course. BTW the next anointed best DAC could utilize R2R, delta sigma or some other approach. So this question of superior conversion method is never settled.
Implementation trumps specific design approach as Al astutely summarized above.
Charles |
Jeff,
The primary claim concerning R2R superiority is that it is more "analogue " like in its sonic character. You and I have heard a fair number of R2R DACs and haven’t found this to be the general consistent result although individually some succeed more than others.
What I found interesting is the Bricasti SE was more dynamically potent than the TotalDac but also "more" analogue like and more organic. This went against the so called conventional wisdom expectation. George and his 8 fellow listeners heard a different outcome.
This isn’t surprising given the undeniable subjective nature of audio, listening sessions and all the accompanying variables associated. Ironically this is what contributes to the joy and fascination of what is the High End audio experience we’re all enthusiastically immersed in.
Charles |
Steve,
In the DAC comparison I commented on regarding the Bricasti SE and Total DAC the only variable was switching between the two DACs. Same ethernet cable, components, speakers,cables etc. The intention of the comparison was not to declare a champion in any sort of definitive sense.
It was an opportunity to listen to 2 very well regarded DACs in a very good and familiar audio system playing music we knew well. No proclamations just an opinion on how they reproduced music in a direct one on one scenario. It was both fun and informative,. Common sense dictates that listener preferences will vary.
Charles |
Steve, I heard the DAC comparison in Jeff’s (Jwm) system. This audio system was described by me in a post yesterday. System variability is a given and can’t be eliminated. This is why synergy is such a popular word in the High Audio vocabulary. It always a factor.
Matt,
For clarification the TotalDac d1-six was the one Jeff and I used BTWI agree with your characterization of the Boulder sonic signature.
Charles |
A prime example of how interpretation varies amongst individual readers. With a name like Schitt it is the perfect and inevitable target for word play. I believe that the company intentionally chose this name for this very purpose and expected effect.
Matt’s suggestion to George to start a thread regarding R2R DACs seems to be the logical next step given his repetitive and numerous posts on this subject. It’s apparent to me that George has very strong opinions concerning R2R conversion. This would provide an outlet for his beliefs and perspective.
Charles |
Ctsooner,
I agree regarding the importance of high quality electronics (preamplifier and amplifier) in the signal path. I do feel that there’s an overemphasis placed on speakers in audiophile threads/discussions at times. Obvious each link of the audio chain matters. If I had to choose one or the other, I’d select great electronics with "good" speakers rather than good electronics with "great" speakers. This puts me in a minority position but it’s based on many listening experiences.
Regarding the Ayre QX5-20 you’re no doubt very impressed with it. I’d like to hear it in a direct comparison with the LampiZator Atlantic. This would be quite an informative and interesting listening session.
Charles |
Ctsooner, You re in sync, no worries. My comment regarding the Ayre QX5-20 and Lampizator Atlantic comparison actually isn’t about determining which is better. That is pure subjectivity and taste oriented. My curiosity revolves around their very contrasting design (topological and circuitry)and approach and how this would play out in reproducing music. Each would have individual areas of strength but it’s their "overall presentation" that I’d find fascinating to hear side by side.
Charles |
Elizabeth,
Your observation is astute and one I can certainly relate to. I’ve (comfortably) accepted my probably minority position of finding Redbook CD generally more natural sounding than SACD when comparing them. This goes against the grain but it is what I consistently hear. Interesting that you’ve had similar findings. The "inky black" (black hole as you put it) background devoid of any sense of ambience (room) presence always struck me as artificial and un-natural.
This again goes against the grain for many audiophiles and I understand that. Mitch2 alludes to this in regard to his experiences with class D amplifiers and I get his point. One thing is certainly undeniably true, we all hear and interpret what we hear very differently. Despite the criticism of 16/44.1 often receives in terms of it’s supposed limitations I find it an excellent sounding medium with the right playback equipment.
Charles |
Hello fuzzbutt17,
Good points you've made. I wasn't indicting DSD as a whole as I haven't the extensive exposure to do so. Elizabeth's "black hole" comment was on the mark IMO at least in regard to SACDs I've heard, nothing more.
Charles |
With all due respect to George I’m inclined more toward Elizabeth’s explanation in attributing the void or black hole effect to the recording method or process. . I don’t believe that delta sigma can be the blamed in a broad brush fashion as the culprit.
I’ve done direct comparisons of delta sigma (D’S) DACs vs R2R
Yamamoto YDA 01a (DS) vs Holo Spring level 3 DAC (R2R) and
Bricasti M1 DAC(DS) vs Total DAC 1 six (R2R) and LampiZator level 5 DAC.
In terms of note substain, decay, venue ambience, sense of presence etc. The two DS DACs were every bit the equal if not out right superior to the very good R2R DACs regarding these parametersas well as others. Based on my listening I don’t believe that sweeping generalizations between DS and R2R hold up under scrutiny.
I can appreciate the idea based on theory but I’m referring to actual listening experiences in the same audio systems.
Respectfully,
Charles
|
Empirical Audio moving from R2R to delta sigma is certainly against the gain /current popular trend. Unquestionably implementation is the dominant determinate.
Charles |
Steve N,
Very interesting, D’Agostino and SET tube amp would seem to occupy polar ends of the amplifier spectrum (topology and philosophically). What do they share in common for both to warrant your recommendation?
Charles |
Steve N,
Thank you for your reply and I see the common ground of SET and the D’Agostino amplifiers. Speed and transparency as a shared trait. I find SET unsurpassed in terms of "naturalness ".
George it’s comments such as yours that prompted my DAC comparisons mentioned above regarding R2R vs delta sigma. I respect your perspectives but my direct listening did not match your assertions. IMHO either approach can yield superb results. I don’t hear the delta sigma limitations/flaws as you describe.
Steve N puts the blame on digital filtering and power delivery quality and this makes sense to me. This would cause effects for both DS and R2R for better or worse dependant of level of implementation and execution.
Charles |
Hello Steve N,
George frequently to support his point says R2R is "bit perfect" whereas delta sigma is merely a "facsimile". As a listener I don’t hear R2R superiority. As a builder/designer is this claim true and if so is it an audible or meaningful distinction in your experience?
Charles |
Gdhal,
I cited George as he has repeated this often on this particular thread/site. I realize that there are manufacturers who share this view but certainly not all do. Given that Empirical Audio has produced both I was interested in their opinion regarding the multi bit/R2R "bit perfect" claim. More importantly how relevant is it ultimately to actual sound quality.
Charles |
George,
Precisely why I addressed my inquiry to Steve N who by all accounts has been successful manufacturing R2R and DS DACs and is a credentialed source. There are unquestionably other builders capable of using either circuit type in DACs. Since he is a knowledgeable contributor to this thread I was interested in his opinion of multibit/R2R "bit perfect " practical or real world audible attributes. .
Charles |
To be very clear I’m not disputing the notion of multibit being bit perfect but rather how is it manifested as a demonstrably superior quality above and beyond DS capabilities. I don’t hear this purported advantageous asset with comparisons as stated earlier. If I'm not mistaken , bit perfect applies to discrete R2R and multibit R2R chips. |
Yes I’m familiar with MSB and have heard a few of their DACs. No doubt that they are fully committed to discrete resistor ladder R2R . I understand the supposed merits of this approach. I used to own a Metrum Octave DAC a few years ago and brought it primarily due to its R2R approach and universal rave reviews. It was in fact a good sounding DAC but preferred the Yamamoto DAC (DS) in my system. I heard the Holo Audio Spring level 3 DAC (discrete ladder design) in my system. Very good but again I found the Yamamoto YDA better sounding. The Metrum and Holo Audio are representative of "bit perfect" given their architecture. TotalDac (bit perfect) outperformed by the delta sigma Bricasti SE in a friend’s system I listened to extensively. .
George it could be as simple as we heard differently. I’ve listened to a number of R2R DACs and they ranged from good to exceptionally good but did not exceed the sound quality of comparable delta sigma DACs. We both have our respective listening experiences and subsequent outcomes. At the end of the day we judge and formulate opinions based on what we have heard.
Charles |
