I finally installed my Environmental Protection EP-2500 surge suppressor and EP-2750 ground filters. I’ve had them since I built the room just sitting in boxes, and finally motivated myself to pull the circuit panel and re-wire it. They are hard wired into the circuit breaker box. Gonna give it all a day or two to settle and then listen. I’m hoping for an even lower noise floor and more depth of soundstage.. 👍🏻
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Showing 50 responses by mattnshilp
Footer comparison: Selections: Ariamateria - 3 different sizes IsoAcoustics Gaia 3 StillPoints Ultra 5 Ceraballs Hardpoint Trinia Got a lot done actually. Compared a ton of footers. And under a ton of stuff. Short answer: Best under/which footer: Music Server / Gaia 3 DAC / StillPoints Ultra 5 Preamp / nothing made a huge difference (Maybe a touch better with Ultra 5's. Maybe) Amps / StillPoints Ultra 5 Need the Gaia 2 or the new Orea Bordeaux to try under the DAC and the amps. The Ariamateria are not great, but very affordable. The Gaia are stupid good for the money. There was a thought that the only reason the StillPoints beat the Gaia under the DAC and the amps was that the Gaia 3 were overwhelmed weight wise. I need to compare to the IsoAcoustics Gaia 2 or the new Orea Bordeaux. Did not like the Trinia, nor did my panel of listeners. (Sorry Mike). But there are so many footers out there. I'd like to still try the HRS Vortex and Nimbus, Symposium Roller blocks, ShunMook, Ansus and Franc Audio Ceramic Discs. But some are hard to get a hold of. I’ll report as I hear them. |
Shakira - Mojo is sending me a Mystique shortly. Thanks. Neoshah - I’m trying to arrange for some ShunMook footers. I have been told by several people that they are musts on the audition list. I cant tell you guys how big a difference these footers make. There are more subtle results with some, but changing from one to another can be staggeringly different. Seriously. |
Linn and Meridian are both hard to come by. I’ve thought of them several times. For servers, I think part of the issue is that they are proprietary. You need an entire server dac infrastructure to make it work. Even so, they both have great reputations and I’d love to hear the new references meridian DAC and a linn Server. I’ll try. |
Thanks Neoshah! 100% agrees! Footers are EVERYRHING dependent. Rack, gear, location under gear, etc. I’m trying to be as methodical as I can be. You guys know that I try to do things as scientifically and reproducibly as I can. That’s why I renamed my YouTube channel The Audiophile OCD. LOL. I think that I can give a general feel for the footers and Racks that should be used as a guide. I have found CLEAR advantages to some footers over others. So there are definitely better footers out there. I’m trying to identify those and then chose the best for my gear and my rack (or new rack). And report, as usual, along the way. I look forward to the Mojo. I’ll try it in both my home and office systems. They are very different. |
Interesting..... In a methodical and calculated plan to try moving my equipment to the front of my room I have started to test some of the issues I anticipate. The first being that I never ran a third dedicated outlet in the front of my room between the two dedicated 20 amp lines I ran for my amps. I’m a dope but it is what it is. I have 3 choices: 1) run both amps off of one outlet/circuit and the other outlet/circuit goes to the conditioner feeding the preamp/DAC/Server, 2) run the amps off of their current dedicated lines but plug the conditioner for the preamp/DAC/Server into one of the two same outlets, 3) run another circuit/outlet for the preamp/DAC/Server. Tried 1 and it dramatically compromised performance. My amps suck MASSIVE current; and the two monoblocks aren’t good at sharing one 20 amp circuits goodies. It’s like two adults sucking a shake from the same straw - the straw will just collapse under the overwhelming vacuum and neither will get any milkshake. 2 is not an option as it would do essentially the same thing considering that the DAC, server AND preamp will draw enough current to affect whatever amp is sharing the outlet. Not even trying. So so now I need to run another line. Sigh..... BUT it was an awesome lesson. We will repeat the same test next week with Merrill’s new statement class D amps. They are crazy efficient and crazy good! I am super curious to see if they are immune to current sharing unlike most, if not all, class A/AB amps. The difference through a single circuit was not subtle! Dynamics were stifled, the soundstage partially collapsed, and the whole system sounded softer! So anyone considering running some dedicated 20 amp lines for your amp or amps should definitely go for it. It’s probably the biggest, cheapest upgrade you can do!! Improve accuracy, dynamics and staging. Spend the little extra and get the best outlets you can afford; they do matter. I have Furutech GTX-D NCF outlets. |
JH901. I’ve been moving around the whole thread. It’s always done meticulously and with purpose. And everything is compared A/B with all variables kept exactly the same. My side comparisons happen when DAC or server comparisons are complete. And every comparison is ALWAYS done with all other variables set in stone. Only one thing changed at a time when doing formal comparisons. The Mustique V3 DAC has been shipped and will arrive shortly. I will post impressions when ready. Stay tuned. |
Gdhal - my current reference is my Light Harmonic Davinci2 DAC being fed via a Light Harmonic Lightspeed 20G usb cable from a fully tweaked out Memory Player MP64. It is the best red book (as well as high res and DSD) I have ever heard. It’s natural, dynamic, spacious, engaging, layered and just gives that lost in the music moment over and over again. Yes, it’s that good! For those that wonder, it is the most analog digital I have ever heard. It sounds more like a turntable then a digital source. That said, there are still some DAC’s and servers I have not heard and can not, yet, comment on. I will continue to try dacs and servers until I have heard everything there is to hear. And just about then, a new technology or product will come out that will peak my interest and this will go on and on. Lol. Guido, you were my Sensei who taught me the importance of a lengthy bun in process. I don’t listen to anything critically until it has 750-1000 hours on it. Yes, 1000 hours. It makes a difference. So I don’t doubt at all that a new circuit would require a burn in period. I am going to run a new circuit. I have already ordered my Square D 20 amp breaker, I will use one of my EP ground filters (they really do work), ordered a 30 foot run of cryo treated 10/2 Romex with ground, Furutech GTX-D-NCF outlet, and the matching NFC plate and cover. I will plug a space heater onto it for a month and let it burn in. 👍🏻 |
Hi jj901. Thanks for the kind words. This thread actually got me a job as a professional reviewer. I now review for Enjoy The Music on line and for The Absolute Sound. I felt that continuing on this thread would be a conflict of interest. So I retired from it. I have no problem with others using it though. |
Steve, try Fubar as well.... Minimserver and Fubar are a bit basic for my tastes but they are as bare boned regarding processing as they come. I have not used the Linn software so have no experience. I’m SO deep into my footer/shelf comparison I can’t think about trying different software now. I am still waiting for Sam and Mark to play with HQPlayer and a few others to fine tune them for my Memory Player before I go that direction. Thanks for reporting! It’s always good to hear what software is working for people. |
Hey guys. Let’s keep it on track and respectful. Thanks. Been distracted by the storms and not having power for a week. Steves DAC is a serious contender and has always been. I still have mine and it makes serious music! It also beat everything that came it’s way until the Davinci 2. it is a force to be reckoned with. I will be comparing footers and shelves to tomorrow morning. Stay tuned. |
Wow. What a day! Here’s the list of things I compared (thanks for your help Larry!!!): IsoAcoustics Bordeaux IsoAcoustics Gaia 3 StillPoints Ultra5 Ansuz Darkz ceramic HRS Nimbus HRS Vortex HRS M3 Symposium RollerBlocks double stack Symposium Ultra Shelf Compared under my DAC and music server. Footers under my amp were Gaia2’s (screwed in). I had tried multiple footers under my Preamp and found it to be practically immune to changes in footers when placed under the massive steel sub plinth the pre-amp sits on. Rack is my Adona rack and shelves. Brief summary. Under the Memory Player Server the HRS Nimbus (which is correctly matched to the sheet metal case) did a better job of extracting details and harmonic layering then the Gaia3. But the Gaia3 are crazy good for the money! The Nimbus are more expensive but justify their price. The bass was slightly deeper and more taught and trailing edge was subtly better defined. I didn’t, but I will, compare the Nimbus to the Bordeaux; just because that needs to be done. Under the DAC I compared (again) the StillPoints Ultra5’s to the Bordeaux and both my friend who joined me and I preferred the more top to bottom coherence of the Bordeaux over the analytical leaning Stillpoint Ultra5’s. Both are easy to live with, but the Bordeaux, at a fraction of the cost, bested the mighty Ultra5’s in creating a more natural, even, musical environment, that was more believable. Also tried the Darkz. Very good although similar in overall result as the Ultra5’s. I liked the Ultra5’s more. If I didn’t have the Ultra5’s i would consider them. You get more for your money with the mass of the Ultra5 considering they are similarly priced. But the IsoAcoustics make you wonder if it’s worth buying any of them. Now it got interesting. Time to bring out the “systems”. The Symposium Ultra shelf with the RollerBlock double stacks and The HRS M3 shelf with the Vortex footers. This was to see what something closer to the full HRS and Symposium rack would attain. What resulted was an obvious improvement that shows that the more you do to isolate the better the result. The HRS and Symposium shelf/footer combos bested anything else I tried previously and with a large margin. Just better in every way. But which one was better then the other??? Much harder to say. The Symposium system improved clarity, resolution, provided layering that I had not heard before, and deepened the soundstage a touch. The trailing edge became extended and very well defined. Very very nice. The HRS system gave MORE. More dynamics, more bass, more extension, more wow, more sizzle, more live. Both are awesome and both provide dramatic improvements in system performance overall. But which one do I want?!? Oh man that’s a hard question!!! Can I get the best of both worlds? Maybe by using one rack and the other footers.... My friend was concerned that a whole rack of HRS “MORE” might be too much MORE. And an HRS rack would literally be twice as expensive as the Symposium rack. So there you have it. I can’t go wrong with either but they DO have different voicing. Clearly a full shelf/footer or rack/shelf/footer system surpasses what footers alone can do. I shall perseverate and let you all know my decisions. |
I just spoke with the guys at Symposium after reporting to them my findings. He said he was not surprised. He designed his equipment to be ultimately neutral top to bottom, and I can absolutely attest to this. It is REALLY good stuff!!! I’m going to listen again Wednesday. I need another session to confirm and reinforce my findings. Then I need to decide which one gets me more lost in the music and gets my toes tapping. Hey I may have arranged for the top level Tidal DAC to grace my room. That should be fun!!! |
Sorry guys. The Mojo is playing in the background. Benjamin had said it was well broken in but had some parts upgraded before he sent it to me. I’m a pathologic believer in extended burn in to give everything its best performance. So it’s cooking. And I lost over a week of no power from the storms. I also, admittedly, needed to do this footer/shelf shootout as some of the gear is on short term loan from some local dealers who need it back. I’m listening one more time to the Symposium and HRS this Wednesday and then giving the Mojo a nice long listen. First impressions were very good. I’ll Report more shortly. Sorry. Benjamin also said he’s trying to get me his server. I’ll keep you updated on that as well. |
WARNING, this post is GOING to piss people off!!! I am sorry. The opinions I am about to state are mine and mine alone. Please don’t tear me a new you’know’what or start flaming. I am just stating my opinion heard in my room, with my related accessories, on my system.... You have been warned! - - - - My friend came over today. We listened again; just compared Symposium shelf/footers and HRS shelf/footers . Used many different styles of music, spent quite a bit of time. Switched between the two several times (what a PITA, but worth it!). The combo shelf/footer has clearly proven to surpass the performance gains of any footer only system. I definitely prefer the Symposium system (Ultra Platform and double stack roller blocks). It’s clean, neutral, fast, gives amazing attack and decay and the soundstage and imaging are holographic. And I’m not sure how, but it significantly lowers the noise floor. The HRS does not lower the noise floor, in fact I think it’s adding to it. It didn’t strike me until we switched back from HRS to Symposium for like the 4th time. I think that’s what makes the HRS sound like it’s giving “more” in comparison, I think it’s coloring the sound. It’s “more” because it’s adding “more” to the reproduction. I think that the HRS footers, on their own, are a better solution then with the shelf. I think there is too much rubber if you add footers and shelves, to be quite honest. The sound HRS gives is big, bold, dynamic, MORE!!! Sounds awesome with anything punchy and dynamic. HRS sounds great on everything to be honest (the rack/shelf/footer equivalent of really good horns), but the purity and neutrality in combination with the blackest background I have ever heard, from the Symposium, was what finally uncovered what I hear the HRS was doing. I think Peter from Symposium may be right (he hates any rubber in a rack/footer/shelf system). A touch of rubber may be ok, but HRS REALLY relies on it heavily. The Symposium makes my system sound the best it ever has, and my friend today was the one who said it. I juts ordered a set of elusive ShunMook Giant footers, touted by many to be the best of the best. I am also trying to arrange to audition a set of Magico Qpods. Of course, both would be implemented on the Symposium Ultra shelf or on the Osiris rack, as I’m leaning heavily in that direction. I will play with a few footers on that shelf to see what’s best, but the combo of Symposium Ultra shelf and double sandwich rollerblocks has impressed me most thus far. On the inexpensive, holy cow are they good and they are only HOW MUCH, category is the IsoAcoustics Gaia and Orea. If you are looking for 95# of the performance for practically nickels on the dollar compared to the expensive stuff, you can NOT do better then IsoAcoustics!!! |
Ok. Here’s my vibration treatment theory. It’s deducted from observation, logic, quit a bit of research (I have an undergraduate degree in physics) and what I have heard: Symposium posts on its web site that it is imperative for their shelf system to properly function to have a high transmission efficiency connection between the components chassis and the shelf. This is to allow the system to simultaneously isolate from outside while draining vibratory energy from the component. Symposium relies on foam in the shelf, not rubber. And then wants no rubber elsewhere because it NEEDS to get the energy to the foam to dissipate it. Makes sense. It's a total system design. Use metal footers of some kind, bearing footer devices, or thick solid metal discs to couple the chassis to the shelf so it can do its job. It makes sense. I now realize that THIS is how Critical Mass works as well; and this is why Critical mass recommends you just put the equipment directly on the shelf or use their simple cone footer to couple the chassis to the shelf. Same exact concept. The magic is in the shelf so get ALL the vibrations to the shelf to do its job. HRS and IsoAcoustics rely on rubber to dissipate the energy. But IsoAcoustics counts of the footers doing it alone. HRS has developed their own system integrated rubber in their footers and their shelves to dissipate the vibrational energy. I think that with rubber there is less thermal distribution. And that with too much rubber it actually seals the vibrational energy in the component as opposed to allowing it to come out and dissipate. I think that you either should use the HRS footers alone or IsoAcoustics footers alone, unless external vibration is a bigger problem then internal vibration. I think the HRS shelf is a brick wall and doesn't allow vibrational energy IN or OUT. So in a big city, it probably makes a HUGE improvement since the vibration coming from outside is smearing everything and it gets blocked. But it also blocks any internal energy from getting OUT. The HRS footers help to attenuate the energy and relies on the (not HRS) shelf to absorb or diffuse the remaining energy. With the HRS shelf in place it just bounces that energy right back through the footer and into the component, doing more harm then good. I any rubber based product like Sorbothane and all the other rubber products out there do the same thing. They attenuate and allow the remaining energy to PSS through and dissipate into the shelf below. So the footer alone, depending on the design, can do a really good job of improving isolation and designing vibrational energy from the component. I like using the IsoAcoustics and HRS footers, they work. Footers like the Magico Qpods (I have a set inbound to audition) and Shunmook footers (also have a set inbound) work similarly. But the Qpod takes an extra step and have a thin layer of (probably) Sorbothane and a Cooper disc which overcomes the poor thermal dissipation of the rubber. The copper theoretically dissipates the heat and makes the aluminum, steel, copper, Sorbothane design more effective at attenuating the vibrational energy then rubber alone. It’s suppsoed to offer a bit of what the Symposium/Critical Mass style shelves do but built right into the footer. I’ll let you know how big a difference that little disc of copper makes. I’m not convinced but ill let my ears do the judging. Regarding the Shunmook footers, they are a super dense wood and a commercial grade diamond spike. Scientifically, it’s a conundrum. But maybe the density of the ebony they use is perfect to attenuate vibration and dissipate that energy more efficiently then what the other guys use. We shall see.... Footers like standard points and cones, fancy points and cones, StillPoints, Ansuz Darkz, Symposium Rollerblocks, etc all do a great job of coupling the vibrational energy from the rack to the shelf underneath. But by focusing that energy into smaller area it permits some thermal release as the vibrational energy is forced into a volume that can’t contain the vibrational energy without forcing some out as heat. Different companies have come up with different geometric solutions to this and some work VERY well! I have gotten the best results with StillPoints, the Darkz (although I liked the StillPoints more) and Symposium Rollerblocks (but only tried also using their matching shelf). I do honestly think that you probably get more isolation and vibrational attenuation by using this last type of footer and then a shelf from Symposium, Critica Mass, Silent Running, etc. Then there are designs like Star Sound and Artesani (and the StillPoints rack) where the entire system is built as a single whole with no real shelf. The component is coupled directly to the rack to dissapate heat and vibration, and to isolate. I have heard all three and they work, and work well. Probably amongst the best overall bang for the buck if your looking to replace your whole rack. Im not sure if that confused you or helped. But it helped me to formulate my thoughts and opinions. As always, thanks for coming along for the ride. Lol. Dont ask ask me what I decided on yet please. I still need to hear the Qpods and Shunmook footers. And more importantly, I need to decide if I can move my rack to the front of my room without deleterious effects. But I feel like I’m getting closer!!!! |
Geoffkait- great post. I needed to read it a few times. Lol. Some definitions : constrained layer damping - flexing of viscoelastic (VE) material between two layers of a stiff material will generate a shear force on the VE material. The force will stretch the VE material, and the stretching converts the kinetic (acoustic) energy to thermal (heat) energy. mass on spring damping - loosely, a mass on sprig system implies any system where a mass loads a compressible material, converting kinetic energy into potential energy. |
CTSooner/Geoffkait - I’m not trying the Shun Mook Mpingo discs. I’m trying the footers, the Giant Diamond Resonators (GDR) mechanical grounding product. The Mpingo are for room tuning, the GDR are for mechanical grouanding (ie. Footers). I just know they are a special type of ebony and then fabricated to a standard. Comparing these to a normal piece of ebony is like comparing a normal cylinder of steel to a StillPoint. They have a HUGE following and many have touted them to be the best there is. They are the only footers that defy explanation scientifically, or at least they do to me. So I hold judgement until my ears evaluate them. |
Geoffkait - whatever it takes. We’re audiphiles..... we do ridiculous things to get better sound. If I need to spend a bit of time getting the most out of these tweaky bastards then so be it. All in the name of good sound! Huzzah! i have no intention of knocking anything off. My comment was in regards to CTSooner saying he’s going to try some simple pieces of ebony under his components when I mentioned the Shun Mook product. I simply stated that the Shun Mook Resonators were as far from a block of normal run of the mill ebony as a StillPoint is from a normal cylinder of Steel. |
I don’t have the Shun Mooks GDR yet. The check is on its way to Shun Mook. I did just get in a set of the Magico Qpods. So I’ll compare those two to the Symposium when the GDR arrive and report. I posted a pretty thorough video about Footers, Shelves and Racks on my YouTube channel: https://youtu.be/12Db2UCjnC0 |
I just checked. There’s a lot of effort that went into the footers and plinth for the Burmester Preamp. The footer is milled and has a carbon fiber cone on the bottom that sits on a carbon fiber disc set into a milled hollow in the plinth. The footer is not attached with a single central screw. Each footer has 3 screws 120 degrees offset (ie. In a triangle). There was a LOT of thought and effort that went into vibrational damping. And it shows since it is abjectly immune to any resonance control devices. Interestingly, the Burmester amps just have pretty standard footers screwed in and respond well to after market footers. |
Quick Magico Qpod evaluation: Under the Memory Player, the HRS Nimbus gives a better sense of dynamic presence and tightens the imaging. Makes the music more engaging with a better sense of pace and rhythm. That sheet metal case of the MP definitely enjoys the rubber! I have yet to try the Symposium Ultra shelf and rollerblocks under the MP yet though. I’m REALLY curious!!! It’s hard to move that stuff alone, but I’ve got to do that!! I love the form factor of the Qpod. I’d put the Qpods with the Stillpoint Ultra 5’s, Vortex and Ansuz Darkz. All excellent. Can’t really go wrong with any of them. They will all have a subtle voice of their own. I need to get them under the DAC to identify that voice though. I’m still not certain that the Qpods are balanced and smooth through the full frequency spectrum. I think they may highlight mids and highs a tad. Await further testing and I need some other ears to confirm what I have heard thus far. |
There’s pretty much no way anyone would be able to put the amps in a different room and keep the speaker run under 8’. Unless you put them right below the speakers in the room under the room with the speakers in them. It would have to be the preamp to amp run. But this conversation is moot, since I won’t be doing that. ;) |
Tkchaq - I tried and reported on the Bordeaux. They are awesome. I have a set under my Torus power conditioner. Elizabeth - although the inexpensive tweaks can sometimes make an improvement, they can also make the sound worse. Just because it’s rubber and can be used as a footer doesn’t mean it should be. Every piece in your system should be tested in and out to determine if it makes it better or worse. Cheap doesn’t make it bad though. Bad makes it bad. 👍🏻 |
Wig - looks intriguing. Congrats on what sounds like a great find. There are a few special dac’s our there that truly perform above their price point. Think Schitt, Mojo, Empirical Audio, Exogal and a few others just beyond the tip of my brain.... Great opportunities for those without unlimited resources exist, and finding these pearls makes this hobby that much better! |
Update on my Rack endeavors..... We did the big move. The rack is now up front between the speakers. Many nay-sayers have quoted me the age old concept that the rack goes anywhere but between the speakers. I designed my custom listening room with that in mind and my rack has occupied the space to the right of my listening position for years, with a very expensive 8.5m balanced run from preamp in the side rack to the amps up front. About 3 months ago I had the opportunity to upgrade my speaker wire to the Crystal Cable Absolute Dream cable and what they did to my system was revolutionary! The change was SO dramatic that I immediately began thinking I need to upgrade my very expensive Shunyata Anaconda interconnects with the very very very expensive Absolute Dream XLR interconnects. The problem is, an 8.5m run of XLR Absolute Dream would be $96,000- retail! 😵 So the only other option was to move all my gear up front and keep the preamp-amp run to 1m. But then I had to put the rack between the speakers, and that’s supposedly bad (especially since my speakers are pretty close to the front wall and the rack can’t be placed that far behind the front speaker baffles). Step one - I had to buy extra parts to reconfigure my current rack to a 2 tall, 3 wide rack. Amps on the bottom left and right, preamp in between. DAC above the preamp centrally and the server to the top left, power conditioner to the top right. Step two - Try every (well, not every, but the ones that look most intriguing) major manufacturer footers and shelves since it’s impossible to audition a complete rack so I decided that a footer/shelf combo should give a solid taste of what a full rack would do. I have been reporting along the way here and on my YouTube channel. Step 3 - Order a 10 gauge outdoor 25’ extension cord so I can plug my system in on the side wall and then move it up front without having to change ANYTHING including the power supply. And then let it burn in for a few weeks. Step 4 - Invite some good ears over that are connected to reasonably strong arms and backs so we can listen with rack on side and then move it up front between the speakers and compare directly. Step 5 - Buy said good ears with strong backs lunch for their efforts and assistance! Well, step 1-5 are now complete. Lunch was great! The very appreviated report on the affects of the rack being moved up front is that it sounds just about the same up front after 45 minutes of letting the system re-aclimate to the front. Especially since we had to unplug and replug everything in when we took the rack apart and moved it. At first it wasn’t as good, but it improved with time as the equipment re-stabilized. We did have to move the DAC onto the floor because with the shelf and footers the DAC came up high enough that it covered some of the front treatments and clearly affected sound. So the two factors that made the biggest difference was keeping everything at least 6-10” behind the front speaker baffle, at least. And most important was keeping everything LOW LOW LOW! if I can get the top edge of the top shelf to be just under 20” off the ground that would be awesome. And if we can get lower, even better. Ideal would be to have the top of the top piece of equipment be no higher then 18-20”. Everyone agreed that getting the new 1m interconnects will yield a massive gain in overall performance, especially since there appeared to be no appreciable change with the rack move. Stay tuned for thoughts on what new rack I am most considering. (Shhhhhhh - The Symposium product is amazing!!!) |
For those waiting on DAC info, I am working on the Mojo evaluation. Getting closer. I have arranged for a top tier Tidal DAC to grace my room. And I’m still trying to find the time to audition the full TotalDAC twelve system. I’ve been hearing raves about the MSB Select and would love to get one into my room....I’ll keep trying! Oh, I also have the new top tier Wavac DAC on potential evaluation; that’s in the works as well. Stay tuned DAC fans. |
Neoshah - watch my YouTube channel. 👍🏻 Its filled with good stuff for what your doing. https://youtu.be/EGnGh7EUsjY |
Toetap - I lied. I do know the CenterStage. They are not actually from Pitch Perfect, they are from Critical Mass racks distributed exclusively by Pitch Perfect. They are a footer version of their constrained layer damping shelf technology. As such, I have no doubt whatsoever that they will be effective. HOWEVER, like the Qpods I question the efficacy of the constrained layer damping technology in a footer, since the physical size of th footer may simply not be enough mass to truly allow any statistically significant amount of damping to occur. The Qpods clearly work but I found them (although my jury is still out) to not be 100% even across the full frequency spectrum. I attributed that to the limited size of the footer. Now Critical Mass is the premier leader in the field, so if anyone is going to do a constrained layer damping footer right, it’s them! I would need to hear them to give them my formal support. I have officially decided to go with Symposium so I don’t need CLD footers on my shelves and my footers need to conduct that energy to the shelves to be properly managed. A similar size/shape top level CM shelf would be 3X more expensive. Hope that helped. |
Critical Mass says the same of their shelves. I think it has to do with the viscoelastic material compressing to its fully compressed state over a few days before it achieves proper thickness to effectively distribute heat. As I have said, I believe CM is on the cutting edge of shelf and rack design, the best in the industry. But you pay for that!!! And I am not convinced that for the same money that you can get the CS footers, you can probably get the same or better performance from a less expensive Symposium Ultra shelf. But until I hear that I can’t say for sure. Yes, the Orea and Gaia are ridiculous value for the money. Nothing comes close for that price. The Stacore looks interesting. But at almost 100kg and not available in the US it’s not on the table, so to speak. PS - My Giant Diamond Resonator ShunMook footers have arrived. I haven’t had a chance to do anything but look at them. They sure are nice to look at though. Eval to come. |
Geoffkait- that’s just weird..... 😜 There are lots of good products out there. Here, there, everywhere. We can’t easily get their stuff and they can’t easily get our stuff. We use ours and they use thars. But I don’t care if they have Stars on Thars or No Stars on Thars. Sneetches on beeches don’t listen to stereos anyway! I haven’t had time to do anything except obsess endlessly about what layout rack I should go with. 3x2, 2x2 with amp stands, or something creative. |
Evaluation of the Mojo Mystique V3:
Benjamin of Mojo Audio was kind enough to send me a Mojo Audio Mystique V3 ladder chip PCM only DAC (Spec’s at bottom of report). Converts up to 24/192 via a USB, Coax or Toslink input. Comes in 2 flavors: single ended at around $5555- and balanced at around $7555- (Don’t know the reason for the price difference but I believe it is parts cost related, which makes sense). He also offers a matching music server he calls the Déjà vu available in both Linux and Windows versions for around $4555- which he will be sending to be towards the end of the month. I did not request these evaluations. Benjamin reached out to me as he felt his product deserved a bit of recognition and I’m always happy to hear more gear at any price as long as I am given the time to allow it to burn in and take my time to offer opinions. SO here we go….
Case and build: It appears to be a folded sheet metal case beautifully finished in a black crinkle coat. Although not a solid thunk when you tap on the top like a milled case wound do, it’s also not the hollow clang you get from lesser sheet metal construction. Very simple and elegant design up front with only 3 input buttons and a silk screened name. The back has well laid out inputs and outputs, and a solid IEC connector that can hold a heavy aftermarket power cable without issue. Power switch is on back. Simple feet underneath clearly would benefit from one of the myriad of aftermarket products I have recently been playing with. I’d suggest the IsoAcoustic Gaia or Orea for an easy inexpensive upgrade; or go for the Symposium rollerbocks or HRS Nimbus for a more expensive higher level upgrade. What you give is what you get with these footers. I’d also suggest a good aftermarket powercord as it clearly benefited from the higher end power cables I tried. As everyone knows, I’m a HUGE Shunyata fan…
From a functional standpoint I ran it off of my Memory Player (via USB) with a driver and off of my Linux based Aurender N10 (via USB and spdif) both without issue. Benjamin was available for tech support when needed, but it was needed rarely. The N10 is as rock solid as always and links right up to any DAC you connect to it via any output you try or all of them simultaneously. After trying both the spdif and the usb from the N10 I preferred the USB. Now I think the USB is a better output from the N10 anyway, so it probably isn’t a fair statement. But if given a choice I would use the USB input on the Mystique; that’s just me…. There is no remote needed as it has three input buttons that are push and play, set and forget. Done.
So, how does it sound. Well, I asked for the balanced version so I was evaluating a $7555- DAC. I was told my Benjamin that the single ended and balanced essentially sound the same but just service the cable selected the best it can (Ben, please comment if incorrect). I’m gonna get the finale out of the way early – At $5555- , if the single ended does in fact sound the same as the balanced, then there is N-O-T-H-I-N-G currently available that can come close to the performance of the Mystique V3, that I have heard (and I have heard MOST of what’s available). At $7555- the balanced version is rubbing elbows with some bigger players that are serious performers. $8K is in Jeff Rowland, ODSE, Lampy territory and what I would consider to be serious competition. But lets get to specifics…
Soundstage is wide, deep and clearly limited by the speakers and room treatments more then the DAC. I got the same depth and width from the ODSX (which is my $13+K resident DAC, and one of my favorites) as from the Mystique V3. Image specificity was better defined with the ODSX but not much. It was more the air around the performers that was more defined, natural and “airy” with the ODSX than the actual performers. Height was about the same. There was a sense of natural presence with the ODSX that the V3 lacked, but at $6K more this is almost an unfair comparison…
Tonal color was wonderful and just right. Not warm, not lean, not overly accurate, not mushy or soft. This DAC is dynamic, punchy but not overly so, develops proper leading and trailing edge although not quite as prolonged and “thorough” as the ODSX. It just doesn’t do anything wrong or offensive; I cant see anyone NOT liking this DAC. The V3 offers a sense of presence that some more expensive DAC’s that I have heard struggle to reproduce. That sense of “they are they and in the room” was quite impressive for a DAC at this price range and Ben should be proud of this, because its not easy to achieve. Again, compared to my ODSX it did not offer the level of layer, depth and harmonic complexity but what it offers it correct and above the performance of many other DAC’s for the same amount and more. I have not heard a sub $10K Lampy DAC in a while, but from memory this and the Lampy are both in the same category for solid state and tube variants of a great sub $10K DAC. As everyone knows I am a HUGE fan of the ODSE and think it would be a hard choice between the two… The Rowland Aeris is another option that is also an over performer at this price range. With the external power supply I could see it being better then the V3, but the Aeris with power supply is also well over $10K.
The DAC switched between resolutions without a hiccup and gave a proportionate improvement with resolution change that was proper and luxurious.
There was not a moment I wasn’t tapping my feet or swaying my head to the music. Really a great DAC.
SO, if you are looking for a single ended DAC you’d be a fool to not listen to the sub $6K single ended Mystique V3! For a balanced DAC in the sub $10k range the V3 is a must audition. And since its available from a small company I would imagine arranging an audition would be much easier then some of the boutique store alternatives… Of course, DSD lovers need not apply. Then again, the Aeris and ODSE don’t do DSD either… and I don’t know about the Lampy.
I look forward to hearing the Déjà Vu with the V3 when it arrives! What a treat Ben. Thanks for the fun times!!!
Specs:
· Built around Analog Devices’ legendary monolithic AD1862 R-2R ladder DAC chips. · Converts PCM format files up to 24-bit 192KHz via USB, coaxial S/PDIF, or TosLink. · Vishay TX2575 "nude" resistors matched to 0.1% tolerance throughout analog signal path. · Direct-coupled ultrahigh-performance Sparkos discrete op amps in the output stage. · No output transformers or coupling capacitors to narrow bandwidth or distort phase. · Hardware-based demultiplexing to ensure perfect phase and time coherency. · Independent circuits adjust MSB for left and right channels at the zero voltage crossing. · Five independent choke input power supplies with Mundorf M-Lytic AG+ 4-pole capacitors. · Twelve Belleson ultralow-noise regulators isolate every type of IC chip and clock. · Laboratory grade filtered IEC input combined with multistage cascaded AC filtering. · High-performance Furutech connectors and cotton covered UniCrystal silver hookup wire. · Anti-resonant polymerized aluminum composite chassis with ferrous internal shielding. · Sorbothane anti-resonant standoffs under PC boards and Sorbothane feet under chassis. · Field convertible from 110VAC to 250VAC both 50Hz and 60Hz. (100VAC is Special order). · Solid brass ground post and DC ground lift for optimized system grounding. · 17.5"W x 3.25"H x 12"D and 23 pounds. |
I have to admit this Mystique V3 is growing on me. It’s stupid good for the money! It has a sense of natural presentation, texture and harmonics while still attaining accuracy and clarity that is hard to achieve. It’s intimate when it needs to be, and big and voluptuous when asked to be. I’d put it comfortably in the “if it were twice as expensive I wouldn’t think twice” category. Anyone looking in this price range would be doing themselves a great disservice to not consider the Mystique. It’s REALLY good! |
Wow guys, gone for a week and right back to PCM vs R2R again. George must be here, lol. This is NOT a thread on R2R vs PCM technolog. Nor is it a thread on why R2R is the ONLY design that should be used, George. I don’t believe in absolutes. As I have said, I’ve heard a LOT of dacs that sound great. I have some great stuff coming. Stay tuned. Im home this evening. 👍🏻 |
Sorry for the delay. I just came home from a week long trip to London and Paris. Great family time. Loved it all. Looking forward to getting some solid listening time in this week though. Yes, I missed my stereo.... I went to one store in London but it turned out to be a tech store more then Audio. Apparently, Diavalet have crossed over to mainstream mass market audio.... I won’t have much to report for a day or three, so let’s run off topic for a bit and hear about trips you guys have recently taken to audio related locations. Shows, intentional trips to audition gear, concerts, anything that involves music, gear and traveling. Should be a fun diversion. |
Steve and George (nice to discuss something of audiophile significance besides R2R with you finally), the gain/impedance matching between preamp and amps is a HUGE point and can’t be over stated. Personally, I have tried running many of the DAC’s I have auditioned direct to my amp and I have tried using Steve’s Final Drive. I have ALWAYS preferred a preamp in between the DAC and amp.... always. In fact, I have pretty much always preferred using a same company preamp and amp for the same broad reason; the preamp is specifically designed to output the correct gain and impedance to best match the amps input stage. The only situations where I see bypassing the preamp as possibly the same or better would be the using a DAC and amp of the same brand where the DAC is also specifically designed to output directly to the amps. Jeff Rowland’s Aeris DAC is a good example of this. Of course, this is a personal opinion and many mix preamps and amps of different brands with good success, but I chose to always keep amps and preamp of same manufacturer to get the most out of a system. I have had several Bricasti dacs in my room and have always preferred my preamp in between. I also had an MSB DAC IV and it also sounded best with my preamp in the signal path. I look forward to auditioning the TotalDAC system and will absolutely try it with and without. |