Rbstehno - I have tried several iterations of the DirectStream and although they are good, they don't come close to the absolute reference level I am seeking. My current reference level ODSX has a built in Ethernet renderer, so I have that option available to me now.
Regarding dedicated music servers vs Ethernet rendered, gigabit switched, NAS supplied servers I am going to make a bold statement that some will agree with and some will disagree with (prepare for a long response and a lot of personal opinion thrown in):
I don't think that anyone but the hardest core (or budget minded) DIY audiophile tinkerer has the patience or expertise to get true audiophile level performance from a modified computer and a series of magic boxes with super linear powered wall warts. I think that most, including myself, just want a great dedicated server as opposed to a meticulously crafted combination of computers, reclockers, linear power supplies and converters. There, I said it. 😱
Romaz on Head-Fi has an astounding thread running about the ultimate Audiophile grade Ethernet Rendered media server. It's filled with tweaks and mods and custom computers, Paul Hynes linear power supplies, reclocking and re-reclocking, audiophile grade switches, double bridged Ethernet outputs, high end Ethernet cables in addition to high end USB cables and lots and lots of boxes. And they all still end up running a USB cable into their DAC.
To me, that's the same rabbit hole that tube swapping leads me to.
I am 100% supportive of the Ethernet rendered music server system and, as I have said several times, I believe it to be the next step. But once you REALLY start researching it and realize how sensitive every step of the chain is to noise, grounding, harmonics, clean power, reclocking, galvanic isolation, data speed, error correction, software selection and conversion from Ethernet to USB to I2S, it changes the way I looked at that solution.
I am going to try a few other variations, but I am 99.99999% decided that I am going to have the Ethernet Renderer swapped out and go back to my tried and true USB Offramp tech for reliable and well established USB input. Steve is offering a new XMOS USB input which he says is better but can't do ultra high res; but I have been so happy with my ODSE that I want the Offramp I know and love, and I want compatibility with ultra high res.
I will likely sell my Core Audio Mac Mini and settle on a dedicated music server (Aurender N10, Lumin U1, Antipodes DX, Baetis, CAD CAT or TotalDAC Music Server).
And KLH007, I am happy to hear the Aque Formula and will seek an audition as well as the DCS Rossini. I promise. I owe it to myself to be thorough and to you guys for following me for years!
I have enough to audition for some time since each decision takes time and energy. 👍🏻 |
Dgarretson - I know all the necessary trinkets. NAS, miceorendu or SMS-200, linear power supplies. But that’s exactly what I’m saying. Need an LPS for NAS, Microrendu (or SMS-200), switch, etc. I have done a tone of research. But to get sound comparable to an Aurender, Antipodes, Baetis, etc you need to add REALLY good LPS, reclockers, etc and down the rabbit hole we go.
I’m not saying it’s wrong and I’m not saying it’s not possible to get great sound. What I’m saying is that I don’t think that just plugging an i5 NAS with Roon into a typical gigabit Ethernet switch and running it into a Microrendu, with all normal power supplies, is going to compete with a simple, 1 box, Aurender N10. I have a friend with an MR and he will be dropping it off shortly; so I’ll know for certain.
It's fascinating that this has become such an issue. I would guess that in the next few years it will get to a point where all DAC's will HAVE to come with a built in Ethernet Renderer and Music Servers from the big boys will be one box solutions with high quality external linear power supplies and built in reclockers that output Ethernet to the DAC's built in renderer. And possibly even have 2 bridged outputs and a way to allow them to run direct and avoid a switch entirely. And audiophile grade switches with linear power supplies will be common (I am auditioning an audiophile grade Waversa switch as we speak to see how how big a difference it makes).
Its all so exciting!! |
Limniscate - Romaz, over on Head-Fi, has a thread titled Comparison of 5 High End Music Servers. I read all 56 pages of the thread (now I know how someone who has to catch up on this thread feels!). To summarize (your welcome), he compared the Aurender N10, CAD CAT server, TotalDac d1-Server, Auralic Aries and Audiophile Vortex Box. He did not include the Gen 2 Antipodes DX or the Baetis (not to mention the Bryston or a bunch of others). His final opinion was that the CAD CAT was the clear winner when considering sound quality and ease of software use. N10 sounded almost as good but was easiest to use. D1-Server sounded almost as good also but software was much less user friendly. He then got involved with the MicroRendu and finally the SMS-200 and now the Ultra. He has heavily supported this gear with Paul Hynes Linear Power Supplies and such, and says the sound is superior to all of the music servers. It's basically a high end, multi-reclocked, super linear power supplies multi piece music server.
I have an N10 in my room now and have an Antipodes Gen 2 DX coming in 2 weeks to audition. Dave of Audio doctor is brining his Baetis tomorrow morning. So within a few weeks I will be able to give my impressions of those 3. I am also trying to get a CAD CAT and CAD DAC in to audition. It's a lot of work. But worth it.
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It was well crafted and I’m so sad it’s gone.
Very abbreviated version without any descriptions (I’m so sorry, but I can’t do it again):
newly upgraded ODSX - awesome but don’t like the Ethernet input. Better then the ODSE and worth every penny of the $6k upgrade. It’s the best DAC available for under $25k
DA2 - accurate, meticulous, expansice, has life but no soul. It’s a reviewers dream DAC . If I were to build a system on the DA2 starting with the DA2 (like DCS) then I could build a world class system. But it’s been difficult to get the most out of it by inserting it into my particular existing system. It needs tubes or warmer solid state to make it shine, IMHO. With that, it could be world class.
Davinci Light Harmonic - it is the best DAC I have ever heard by a long shot. I heard music within the music. Dances of harmonics in strings and vocals that I never ever knew could exist. Accuracy without sterility, complexity and layers that were exposed for the first time ever. Just wow! A massive trade (including the DA2) was struck plus a wad of cash and this unit will be heading off for a full upgrade to LH2 status and then coming back for permanent residence.
So, I can’t believe I’m saying this, my ODSX is up for sale. If you are interested in the best DAC for under $25k then message me. It won’t be available until the LH2 is ready for delivery. But a deal can be struck now if interested.
I also still have a Chord DAVE coming in. Now it’s more for curiosity and to report to you. I can’t imagine it would outperform the LH. It might be better then the ODSX, maybe. But the ODSX tonal similarity to the LH was uncanny. Like the ODSX was the $14k model in Davinci’s line; sounds like it came from the same DNA. It’s THAT good!
I will post a follow up shoutout to Dave, the Audio Doctor. He gave me a ton of his time and deserves serious recognition. |
Ok. I just typed a three page review on the DA2, ODSX and Light Harmonic. It took me an hour and a half. And I hit submit and it went bye bye. |
Jwm- apologies but it was a while ago. If you go back in the thread you will find my impressions. It’s never about not liking. It’s about liking something else more. I have heard the Bricasti sound great with other Bridasti gear at shows. So I know it can sound awesome. But I don’t think it matched up with what I was comparing it with. It wasn't a matter of "didn’t like". It was a matter of the other stuff being better in my system to my ears.
But go back and find rhe comments and im sure I was more descriptive. |
Jwm -
1) apologies. I'll check my notes and post for you. I think I have them somewhere.
2) wow, I'm impressed you checked though all those pages! I'm honored.
I do remember that it was not well suited to my system. But the specifics of why escape me. It was the current iteration at the time. As I said, please don't take my opinion as gospel. I am one person with one opinion. I try to explain why I like or don't like something so you can use that. Remember that it's not ever really a review as much as a comparison. And until the DAC2X, which I am certain would be bested by the ODSX, and now the Light Harmonic, i have always preferred my ODSE (now ODSX). |
4425 - you can’t jump in on this thread and make a statement like that. As I just said, this thread is not about reviewing DAC’s. It’s about PICKING the best DAC. I have not evaluated a DAC I disliked. In fact, every DAC I have owned or auditioned is worth keeping and building a system around. I’m looking for the best darn DAC (started out as red book since that was and still is the bulk of my file type) I can find, at any price. I have excluded tubes DAC’s because of my personality and the tube swapping rabbit hole that would cause me never ending obsessive tube rolling, countless dollars and sleepless nights. I’m not saying that the best DAC in the world is solid state, but it is for me. I have heard the Golden Gate and it’s truly awesome, but simply not for me; like horn speakers (which I also love but just don’t have the space for), spicy Indian food and smoking Hookah; not for me......
There are certain DAC’s that have fan clubs..... Bricasti amongst them. Ayre, Lampizator, DAVE and DCS all have their dedicated groups of devotees also, who will defend their brand to the end. Good’on’ya!!! They all can make music and do it right. My goal was to find the one that made my system, in my room, with my ears sound the best. So anything I say about a DAC is in comparison to another and which I prefer. If it made it into my room, it’s a damn good DAC! I love Ferrari and Lamborghini, but I prefer Ferrari. That doesn’t mean i don’t like the Lambo.....
That all said, I found my notes and the highlights about the Bricasti were that the ODSE (my giant killer) offered a more complex, layered presentation of the music. In comparison, the Bricasti lacked a sense of "live" that the ODSE gave in spades. I also felt like the Bricasti had a flatter depth of stage in comparison, but that it’s spacial definition allowed individual events to happen seamlessly within their space. The ODSE did that equally well, and in the end it stayed and the Bricasti went back for someone else to enjoy. |
A comment about dealers in general and one in particular (Dave, The Audio Doctor)......
Buying used is great. It saves money and allows us to bring a piece in knowing that we can turn it over without losing our shirts in the process if/when we decide to upgrade or go in a different direction. We all want to get as much as we can for our money, but what we need sometimes is more then just product.
There are times, many times, where an audition is mandatory and potentially even a home audition. And an educated, experienced ear can help your system grow beyond what you thought it’s boundaries were....
Dave, The Audio Doctor, had visited a wealthy client on Friday/Saturday and had brought the larger part of his Digital front end and all necessary cables, conditioners, tweaks, etc with him. I suggested he stop at my house on a Sunday before he put everything back together so we could play and he welcomingly obliged (and got to sell a Davinci Light Harmonic 2 to me as a reward! Although the reward was truly mine!!!).
I told Dave to leave all his other "stuff" in the car and just bring in the DAC and music server. I told him how I, as a seasoned audiophile, audition gear in my room..... He waited about 7 seconds (clearly processing the situation) and suggested, strongly, that I let him run the demo since he knew how to squeeze the last vestige of performance out of his equipment. He wanted to use HIS power conditioner (Audio Magic) and HIS power cables (Enklein David), not mine. I thought about it and said it was ok as long as he had extra power cords to run to my DAC and server simultaneously so we could keep all variables consistent during the comparison except the actual DAC or music server. I have 2 pair of identical XLR 1m interconnects and digital cables so we kept everything identical except for the actual DAC which was a/b’d through my preamp. His intention was also to bring his tweaks in but we ran out of time.
He was clearly skeptical of the ODSX but open minded. As we listened he commented positively on the ODSX many times, and allowed me to make any judgments on the LH DAC he brought. My ODSX never sounded so good, and the LH (with the Baetis serve) left me feeling the need to smoke a cigarette after we were done listening!!!!
At the end he admitred that he was blown away by how good the ODSX sounded. But we both agreed the Davinci LH was otherworldly!!!
We had a great time and a productive time. He brought over almost a hundred grand worth of gear in his car to my house and shlepped most of it downstairs into my basement listening room. He could have walked away without a sale that day easily, and without regret or malice. But his fund of knowledge, experience, exceptionally selected gear, passion and demand to audition his gear with the cables and accessories he knew (and brought with him) would allow the equipment to shine its shiniest reminded me that buying gear sometimes means you pay for more then just the gear, and it’s SO worth the expense!
I am obligated to list John of Audio Connection in this category as well considering his generous offer (which I never took him up on) to bring over and set up the very big and VERY heavy Vandy 7’s when I was speaker shopping. I decided it wasn’t for me at his shop, so I declined his generous offer. I have personally never bought anything from John, but he’s clearly a good guy. I HAVE bought from Dave before and he’s a great guy and someone to consider when you need to rely on an experienced salesperson who has amassed a great selection of gear to offer his clients. And he takes trades, which many do not.
I happened to HAVE an Audio Magic Oracle I had gotten on a trade a while ago and never swapped in since I always loved my Shunyata PC. When I told Dave I had the Oracle, he wasn’t at all upset that I didn’t buy it from him, he was upset I wasn’t using it!!! After he left, I pulled the Shunyata and have been running the Oracle since. I want to let it burn for a few weeks before I pass final judgement. I’ll keep you updated.
And finally i need to comment on the insanely expensive $9k/meter Enklein David power cords.... I want them. I want them for my amps and my preamp and my DAC and my music server. And another one to wear around like a tie!!! I just wish they weren’t SO damn expensive!!!!! They remove everything and leave only what is supposed to be there. They get out of the way like nothing I have ever heard, or haven’t heard!!!
I want to try them out since he has plenty and slowly integrate them. But they blew away my Shunyata Alpha Digital PC. When the time comes I’m going to call the Cable Co and see if I can get a Shunyata Sigma Digital ( and High Current) PC in to compare..... still so much to do!!!!!
Thank you Dave, from one type of Doctor to another!!!! |
Anyone at AXPONA??? How abought some summaries?
I couldnt go. :(
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Thanks Audio_Troy. Your opinion and experience are welcome. Please curb the sales pitch part of the posts though. All are welcome, but no one wants to hear a dealer advertise here. I put a HUGE good word in for you guys and it’s well deserved. Let your customers speak for you; and I did. :)
Dragonvibe- Awesome to have you here!!!! You bring experience with DAC’s I have either heard but not in my room, or not heard yet. Thank you for that. I have had MSB in my room, not for me. I have heard DCS and PD in other rooms but not mine. I have not heard the Golden Gate in my room but it has sounded great elsewhere.
I have practically no experience with Playback Designs other then a show room. The Golden Gates I have heard sounded musical and engaging but where all tube bases systems and had so much flavor it was hard to tell where the seasoning was added. DCS are unique in my mind as it’s the only digital that needs to be selected first and then a system built around it. If you do DCS that way, you can create an amazing system; I’ve heard them. But you can’t put DCS into an existing system and expect to get the most out of it. DCS will ALWAYS sound lifeless and analytical if added into a system last....
I have arranged for a TotalDAC 12 audition this summer. I look forward to it!
Please keep contributing everyone!!!
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Great stuff!! I'm not sure CT meant what he said the way he said it. Peter and I have had many off thread conversations about system synergy and the importance of component matching. People buy from reading instead of listening; I think that was more his point.
I have heard MSB and felt as you did. The MSB unit came and left. I owned a Lampi Big 6, not a 7 or GG. The 6 was built well but had a garage made appearance and feel. I think the GG is a significant step up and has the ability (from hearing it at shows) to make its owner very happy. As I said, i have not heard a Playback Designs in my room. If anyone wants to arrange an audition I'm happy to listen.
Listening tastes, room acoustics, equipment synergy, hearing capacity, cable voicing, electrical and vibration isolation, and seating position ALL affect our experience and interpretation of a system's overall performance. I've had DAC's in my room that I loved and a friend strongly disliked, and vice versa.
I believe almost every DAC listed can be properly integrated into a system to create an emotionally engaging system. My system, my ears and my tastes have led me in the direction I have shared, and will continue to share.
Descriptions from myself and others should help to define different DAC's qualities so that buyers can make more educated decisions. Base purchases on descriptions of sound described here, and then listen for yourself!!!
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The very current state of music servers (I just wrote this article last week, posting here first):
The technology behind Music servers is still brewing and percolating. I would say they are past puberty now, bounding towards young adulthood but still with room to grow and time to physically and intellectually mature. They are all built from the same parts: A hard drive storing the music as an Ethernet based NAS or as an internal hard drive (spinning or solid state), a computer needed to run software that allows selection of the music to be listened to, some type of translation device to convert that selected music data to a language and conduit the DAC can talk to and understand (either directly outputting USB or requiring a translator called an Ethernet Renderer that essentially converts those little magic packets of Ethernet information into a more standardized USB signal), some form of distribution hub, and a power supply. As with all audiophile gear, each component in the system including the cables that connect those components, the quality and speed of the parts used, the internal and external shielding from noise those components (and cables) are sensitive to, and the quality of power supplied to the equipment all determine the final performance of the system. Two solutions seam to be most common, and two methods of data transmission; although at this time one of the two methods must, at some point, be converted to the other before being able to speak to the DAC.
Music servers now exist as either independent and purpose built components with everything in one box (or one box with an external power supply) or as essentially separate components with everything above separated. The same task is accomplished either way. In the end, both must output either spdif, AES/EBU or, most commonly, USB. At this time most DACS don't accept Ethernet as a standard input; and those that do still require an Ethernet Renderer inside the DAC to convert the Ethernet packets into USB or bypass USB and convert directly to I2S which the DAC chip can understand.
An all in one music server internally houses and utilizes either Microsoft, Linux or a Mac operating system (usually Microsoft or Linux) and many have opinions about which is the best. Separate systems either use the simple Linux operating system built into the NAS or actually use a computer running Linux, Windows or MacOs that has been modified to use only those computational systems that are required to run the software which allows you to select the music. These computers are customized or custom made. A similar system has been designed and built into a dedicated music server. The separates system utilizes Ethernet to communicate with all of its parts until the final step. Ethernet is known to have galvanic isolation advantages and noise isolation advantages as a result of how packets of information are sent and reconstructed, which demands that all the information first arrive and then be converted. This, theoretically, results in less data transmission errors in a system isolated from certain types of noises. The problem is that each component along the way is still sensitive to noise and sensitive to the quality of its power supply. A dedicated music server houses everything in a single, shielded enclosure and shares a power supply, or several power supplies. Dedicated servers output their signal to the DAC via either spdif, AES/EBU or USB. USB sends its signal in a more linear fashion and is more susceptible to data errors, and is not galvanicly isolated. It does, however, have its advantages and many who are in the know believe that USB is still a better signal path and has many years of usefulness left before it goes the way of Betamax and the cassette.
After the computer and software point the music in the hard drive to the converter it needs to be beaten, manipulated and "reclocked" to essentially clean the data stream and get the most perfect set of bits possible to the final step. Again, this can be done with a separate device or internalized within the single chassis of a dedicated server. It then must end its long path by being converted via what's called an Ethernet Renderer from its little magic packets into standard USB to be passed on to the DAC for final conversion.
A dedicated server transits all of this information within. Some of it is, in fact, transmitted via Ethernet but many convert to USB or direct to I2S as quickly as technologically possible. Long Ethernet runs don't degrade sound at all (which is a luxury of a separate system since components can be placed far from the listening area), but very short runs of most other signal type yield better (i.e. less noise) signal transfer. Most prefer solid state media storage these days, whether internal or external. And most prefer their operating software on a separate solid state drive from the storage drive. There ends the descriptions and pitfalls of a dedicated Music Server. A system of separate devices is reliant on one more device, the Switch which allows everything to talk to each other in super fast two way data lingo that listens to the software running on the computer to direct those bits of music data on your hard drive to run as fast as they can to your DAC and get bounced around, attacked by noise, reclocked, and eventually converted to USB so your DAC can take that final step and make good old fashioned analog music signals with them. The Switch can utilize either copper wire or fiber optic wire to transit the Ethernet signal (optical obviously adds an extra layer of noise isolation but also adds more boxes to muck with the data stream). All of these boxes then require high quality linear power supplies to make the entire system sound its best. The NAS, computer, Switch, Ethernet Renderer, Reclocking devices and any optical converters used ALL require moderately expensive and well built power supplies. And they ALL require high quality (i.e. costly ) cables to connect them. As a result, a simple separate system including a NAS with built in Linux running music server software can send its signal to a Switch (which every house these days has anyway) and then to an Ethernet Renderer for USB conversion to a DAC, and there you have a relatively cheap and very good music server. To put together something more reference level requires top notch power supplies (Paul Hynes seams to be the resident expert and supply source), customized computers with solid state drives, lots of Reclocking, a good switch and an Sotm or MicroRendu Ethernet Renderer with lots of good cabling throughout. I believe the final separates system's result is WAY cheaper then the average top tier single box purpose built Music Server but requires quite a bit more effort to select, assemble and implement. Can a system of separates sound better then a purpose built dedicated Music Server? I don't see why not. To a tweeker and tinkerer it would not even be considered effort to put a high end multi-component system together. To someone on a serious budget it would be a worth while effort that would be paid back with huge dividends. To, I believe, most audiophiles, its not worth the complexity and DIY feel that putting together a true high end Server system would require. I could be wrong though, considering the audiophiles propensity towards "separates" like amp and preamp, or DAC and transport.
As a small aside, and to be through, someone has come up with a way to run the computer/software box directly to the Ethernet Renderer by utilizing 2 Ethernet ports and bridging them. The results are reportedly a significant improvement in sound quality by bypassing the need for a Switch in the signal path. I'm not sure how complicated this is to achieve, but the concept is logical and removes a box that touches the data, can add to its corruption and offers another point for noise to enter the system. I can refer anyone interested to the on line thread this idea is discussed.
Dedicated servers have now been out for years and those that make them have revised and tweaked these hardware and software packages to high levels. As I said, they are no longer anywhere near infancy. Some have come out with packages that are, sort of, half way systems with Servers that house the computer, software and typically a storage solution and export Ethernet to be rendered externally as more DAC's start to become available with built in renderers and more (and better) external renderers become available like the Microrendu and soon to be released SoTm SMS-200 ultra. But a fully equipped dedicated Music Server can now serve up the goods in true Audiophile fashion. And if you do have the know how, financial restrictions, DIY desire or tinkering prowess to put together a reference level multi-box Music Server then you will be equally (and some think more then equally) pleased with your results.
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Pennsy- there are a lot of giant killer DAC’s out there. The Empirical Audio ODSE is under $9k and has destroyed DAC’s scoring 4x as much. It was my reference for years until I upgraded it to the ODSX $14k version. The PS audio DAC has been brought up repeatedly; and although very good does not compare to most of the other DAC’s listed here; this is from direct comparison.
That said, some of our systems are Statement/Reference level and can benefit from the best available. This thread is about "Absolute Top Tier" and that is what I am after.
To a certain extent, this thread has become a sports team debate... if your a PS Audio fan, or Bricasti, or Ayre, or Schiit, or Lampy, it’s all good. As long as YOU are happy with your system then that’s what counts!!
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High price does not always equal better!! This is a fact. There are $8k DAC’s (ODSE & APL DSD-SR for example) that I would chose without hesitation over many $12, $18k, $24k or $35k DAC’s. As an example, the new Reference Emm DA-2 was disappointing to say the least. I bought it, I auditioned it, and I traded it. But experience has taught me that there is also a pseudo-floor of about $8k below which currently nothing exists to compete favorably with the top tier DAC’s. If someone wants to prove that wrong please send me their sub $8k giant killer for audition and I will be happy to report my findings. That all said, I will gladly admit that the Davinci Light Harmonic DAC (which is around $35k) is the best damn DAC I have ever had in my system and mine will be arriving in about 3 weeks for permanent residence, or until something better dethrones it.
Which hits on my next point, just made by Dragon_Vibe, and he’s 100% correct. BE CAREFUL OF RAVE REVIEWS IN MAGAZINES, ON-LINE REVIEWS AND FORUMS. You would be shocked to see how many reviews are essentially just paid advertisements, how many on-line raves are subsidized and how many forums are fed info by people with motivations to sell product.
FROM DAY ONE, I HAVE PUT MY OWN MONEY OUT TO BUY EVERY DAC (and now have some sent to me for honest audition) I HAVE AUDITIONED! I DONT REVIEW, I AUDITION AND COMPARE TO WHAT I CURRRNTLY HAVE. IF ITS BETTER, IT STAYS. IF ITS NOT BETTER, IT GETS SOLD (or sent back). My opinions are 100% sincere and unbiased. If a company wants to send me something for audition they better be comfortable with me reporting to you guys that I don’t like it. Period. You get the whole truth!! Also, NOTHING gets auditioned without cooking for a minimum of 500 hours in my room to make sure it’s well burned in, settled, and has the best opportunity to sound its best.
With a new flow of DAC’s coming out, I’d love to get my hands on a top tier Playback Designs to audition, especially with Dragon_Vibes comments, and I look forward to CTSooner bringing his prized Ayre DAC over this summer for a good listen. I have no interest in buying a Golden Gate, but I’d still love to hear one in my room so I have an educated reference for you guys.
That all said, I will today be auditioning and comparing my (yes i purchased it to audition it) Chord DAVE DAC. A friend is coming over and we will be comparing it to my current reference ODSX. We will also be comparing the Aurender N10 I am borrowing to a Micro-computer running Windows and JRiver through a Micro-Rendu. That should also be a cool comparison. I don’t believe any fancy power supplies are involved so it should be a fair off the shelf comparison.
Thanks everyone for keeping this thread fresh and interesting! |
Sunandmusic - haven’t heard it sorry.
The group of people that regularly post on this thread seam to have a lot of experience hearing many different DAC’s. If any of us make a comment, it’s pretty reliable (here) that the statement is being made with auditory experience to back it up. Otherwise most of us just say we havent heard it.
Also, we all have different tastes. So a lot of times it’s more important to ask "why"’something was preferred then "what" was preferred.
I just finished a 2.5 hour comparison of the ODSX and the DAVE and have some impressions. I don’t have time to post them now. But the why, and sonic descriptions will likely be more useful to many then which I chose as "better"....
stay tuned. |
Ejr1953 - great post to start on a new thread.
Totally not what this thread is about though. |
Just proves that different ears in different rooms listening to different equipment hear different things.
There are those that consider the DAVE revolutionary! I have one in my room right now. My initial impressions will be posted shortly.
I’m glad you found a DAC you are happy with Limbiscate! That’s awesome.
If I may, "better" is a decision. To the readers a decision is good to know, but WHY is useful to everyone. So please give us the sound qualities of both, pros, cons, and what led you to your decision. Then we can all have a reference point to compare to something everyone may be familiar with |
** Audition report **
I had the opportunity to spend about 2 hours this morning comparing my ODSX and my Chord DAVE, which now has about 290 hours on it. Because my ODSX was upgraded to the Ethernet input I lost my prized Off Ramp USB input which i miss terribly. I do think that the Off Ramp was part of the magic and I am almost definitely going to send the ODSX back to have the Ethernet input removed and my old Off Ramp input reinstalled. I have been blown away by the performance of the ODSX overall but i constantly feel that there is a veil in the upper registers that is the only thing holding the ODSX from being SO good that nothing else (cost wise) would be worth even listening to anymore.... I'm using the ODSX with the spdif input currently. Its got about 1000 hours on it, so its as burned in as its going to be. This "veil" is not as much a lack of anything as it is an understatement of what there is. Its not bright, its not shouty, its not fatiguing, its not overstated, its just not. Its tonal reproduction is dead on, timbre is luxurious and recreation of instruments and vocal texture is sublime. When I ask my son (the musician) which DAC he prefers he reliably choses the ODSX (except when the Davinci was here) and when I ask why he says that the ODSX makes everything sound like instruments sound on stage when he is performing. But when I compare it to the DAVE and when I compared it to the Emm DA-2 I find both of those DAC's to be a tad more exposing of the upper registers and when I switch back to the ODSX it feels like thats missing... With that said, the one word I used to describe the DA-2 was "Accurate" and the one word I would use to describe the DAVE is "Clean." While the one word I have used to describe the ODSX is "Engaging." The one word I used to describe the Davinci LH was "Woah."
Lets be thorough though...
The Chord DAVE i ordered was silver and is eloquently implemented, small in stature, dense in implementation and the equivalent of a petite supermodel. I cant keep my hands off it and I find myself glancing sideways while I'm listening to look at it slyly like I'm sneaking a peak at a women changing clothes through a window I'm not supposed to be able to see... I almost feel dirty. lol.. Needless to say the designer hit it out of the park. Its buttons and its back panel are well laid out, the large display is easy to read and easily displays the information it is supposed to. And the remote is simple and functional. Although it has been described by some as lacking low frequency extension and others as being punchy and energetic, I would say that its extension is unrestricted and its energy is youthful and exuberant. But like a teenager, what is has in energy and exuberance it lacks in maturity; which became my general impression throughout the listening session. As previously stated, where i constantly hear that blasted veil with the ODSX, the DAVE extends "cleanly" and without restriction to the nether regions of infantile hearing. If there were a DAC that could reproduce a 1000 KHz signal, this would be it. Mids were well represented and properly presented. Along with its extension and sparkle came a slight but noticeable over exaggeration of specific instruments in space and in time. Whereas the ODSX presented a seamless orchestra or jazz band with each instrument equally presented and highlighted, the DAVE chose to highlight a specific instrument or vocal timbre leaving the rest sort of in the background. Again, it lacked a sense of maturity and complexity in reproduction that made me feel like everything that was supposed to be there, was there. But that there was a lack of integration and coherence that the ODSX gave me naturally and without even highlighting that it was doing it.
For those with some literary exposure, the DAVE reminded me of the automatic sentient door from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy that was constantly asking if it did a good job and wanted to make sure that its opening and closing was as pleasing to the user as possible; but just never really "got it."
I kept writing "immature" and "where's the layers?" in my notes. The greatest lack in complexity was clearly mids and down, and the highs seamed a touch overstated; but not to a fault.
Interestingly, when I had the Davinci in, I never heard the veil. I didn't hear it in the Davinci and I didn't hear it when I switched back to the ODSX. And I found the tonal structure of the LH to be simply correct from top to bottom. The ODSX sounds like the LH's baby brother in every conceivable way. This keeps telling me that the ODSX is not veiled at all, and that the other DAC's i am hearing are simply overstating a tonal signature that many like hearing and consider to be a sign of accuracy. I may be wrong....
I have a very standard listening routine and a standard list of music. At the conclusion i always put on a piece of music that i love simply because it has the ability to grab my emotional innards and, when presented correctly, physically rip me away from any possibility of critically listening because I lose myself in the majesty and grandier of the music. My eyes instinctively close, my arms start moving around like the Diva from The Fifth Element and I'm sure i look a complete fool; but the moment is emotionally sublime and I'm left at the conclusion half giddy and half euphoric. When I played the DAVE i was firmly fixed in critical listening mode throughout the piece. When I switched to the ODSX I don't even remember what happened... And that says it all!
I will repeat my listening session again in another 200 hours with a fresh and completely open mind. And I will have some audio buddies over in the meantime to listen and tell me I'm a fool and that the DAVE is WAY better then the ODSX; or maybe not.
As always, thanks for following along.
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Schiit, Yggy, Benchmark, etc all represent huge values for their respectively priced market. Its always great feeling you are getting MORE then you paid for! Congrats to all who have posted and found grea DAC’s with such high performance to budget ratios!
I’m after the cost no object, absolute reference, defining DAC that makes your digital sound like your listening to an original reel to reel master tape! The hunt has taken over 3 years thus far and led me through dozens of DAC’s ranging in price form $6,500 to $43,000! They are massively different and range in performance equally massively. Price does not ALWAYS correlate with performance; but I have found around $7,500-8,000 is the floor below which it becomes increasingly difficult to find something truly reference level. I have heard MANY DAC’s over $9k that perform more like $4,500 DAC’s. But I have not heard ANY $4,500 DAC’s that perform like the best $9+k DAC’s......
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Wardl- I don’t speak in absolutes nor make blanket statements. System matching is everything. I have said over and over again that these are my ears, my room and my system. I try to report what I hear. It’s not what everyone will hear. I don’t like the PS Audio DAc while others LOVE it and defend it vehemently.
I knew I was opening Pandora’s box when I posted my audition findings about the DAVE. But they are not right or wrong, just what I heard. The DAVE has a huge following and I’m sure it floats many many boats. To be fair, I need to let it burn in for several hundred more hours to make a final evaluation. But I said that. Maybe it sounded "immature" because, well, it is. Lol.
If you ask 10 audiophiles what qualities in a system gets their juices flowing, and gets them "Lost In The Music," your will get 20 different answers. None of us are right or wrong. D
No one should feel attacked if their favorite kit gets a bad review somewhere, or has something else chosen over it. If we all liked the same thing, we’d all have identical systems and every other company could just close up shop.
Vive’le’differanz!!!!
That all said, I don’t trust reviews. They are mostly subsidized advertising. And everyone who reads an audio magazine or watches an on-line audio web-zine needs to know that. Unless there is no money for goods or services being exchanged, their will be a bias and an alternate motive. I have no motivation but to get the best sound I can.
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Aolmrd1241 - an excellent question. The answer is, about 85% red book and 15% high res. But if it makes red book sound good then hi-Rez is wow!!!!
wardl - I agree and disagree with your last statement. Many many audiophiles don't have access to local stores and shows, and don't have the funds to buy and try and sell at a loss. I have come upon and interacted with MANY who use this thread as one of a varied number of resources upon which a decision is made to make a purchase; DAC's, speakers, or otherwise. I'm always happy to offer off thread opinions and advise. For some, listening to a certain high ticket item is practically impossible and by using this thread, other forums, and reviews from their personal trusted reviewer they make purchases they are subsequently VERY happy with.
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Limniscate- HF filter off.
Randy-11 - not sure how to answer that. My room is fully dedicated. It has its own sub-panel with 5 dedicated audio lines of EXACTLY the same length to avoid group loop issues. The panel utilizes EP ground filters and an EP mains filter/surge protection. The room is wired with top grade outlets and I am currently comparing an Audio Magic Oracle and my Shunyata AV hydra conditioner. The amps run straight into the wall. All power cords are currently Shunyata Alpha versions. I’d love to upgrade eventually to Enklein David’s! Did that answer your question? |
Wardl - never said I didn't find a "good one". I've been enjoying my Empirical Audio OverDrive SE (and now my upgraded SX) pretty much kick ass and take names for almost that entire time. It's truly THAT good!!!!!! But I'm looking for the best! I thought the Emm DA2 was going to be it, and it wasn't. The Davinci Light Harmonic 2 (auditioned the LH #1) was sublime. Same voicing and tonal balance of my ODSX but just better in every way.
I can list 10 "good" DAC's ! But I'm looking for the ultimate reference (in my system)! 😜 |
Dgarretson- you bring up a good point.
2 ways to compare:
1) keep everything absolutely consistent and change 1 and only 1 variable.
2) do what needs to be done with each item to allow each to shine as much as it can.
I sort of do both but lean heavily more toward the first. I can’t compare fairly with anything that would change the sound (i.e. Different power cords, interconnects, power conditioning). But I have no problem tweaking vibration control and such (of course that changes the sound also, but it's just helping the untinsound its best). I use my top tier Adona racks and typically put Stillpoint Ultra 5’s under the DAC’s to isolate. I find they are crazy good (although crazy expensive). I think I will eventually go for an all Stillpoints rack. But for now my Adonna is excellent. Also, my room is sitting on concrete in a quiet suburb with very few homes on very many acres of land. So micro-vibration is well controlled and macro vibration rarely exists.
CTSooner and Wardl - I have officially ended you guys. Enough. Give each other an audiophile man hug, agree to disagree and keep the conversation to the topic please. Thank you. Your Welcome. :) |
Thanks Dgarretson! I have 3 racks on my list if I ever decided to "upgrade"
Stillpoints
Grand Prix Audio
Starsound
All 3 are supposedly amazing! |
Wisnon - congrats on the great reviews. As much as I hate to say it, I may need to get a GG into my room if not just to hear it and find where it belongs in the pecking order of DAC'dom. But I have no doubt it's exceptional. As I said, I've heard it in several show systems and they have all been great!
HRS is sort of the best there is. I am upset at myself that I forgot about that. I just don't know how big a difference it makes for THAT much more money. And I don't think there is really any way to tell.....
And i I use Shunyata elevators under all of my loom (PC's, interconnects or speaker cable). Nothing touches the floor, and I have vinyl everywhere with a large, double thick central area rug. |
Wow. That Lauder Memory Player sure is $$$$$!!!!!
I’ll email and see what his audition process is. Thanks for the info. |
I'm hesitant to start a second thread since this one has SO much recognition. I think I'd prefer to just chat about music servers here as we meander about.
Ive thought about starting a Facebook page. But that would split attention and could get complicated. I'm leaning towards just letting this thread morph and flow as we go. |
Jh901- the short answer is, yes. The better recording make a huge difference! Even if still "just" at 16/44.
I have, admittedly, become so consumed with finding my grail equipment that I sometimes spend more time comparing gear then I do just listening and enjoying music. My time is SO limited. But there is a satisfaction and enjoyment in comparing gear that is its own hobby in and of itself. :) |
By the way - as insane as it is to think, I am currently DAC'less.
My new Davinci LH2 is due in about 2 weeks. My ODSX is back at Steve's getting the USB input put back in and swapping out the Dueland caps for V-Caps. And my Chord DAVE broke and i sent it back for replacement.
Which REALLY sucks because I JUST got the Antipodes DX Gen2 in yesterday. Sigh. |
Jh901 - I understood. Makes a HUGE difference. I agree.
CT - no vinyl. Sold all vinyl and phono stage. I'm all digital now. |
Jwm- maybe. But for now I don't want to have money held up in gear I'm not using. I didn't sell my vinyl. Just the equipment I would need to extract sound from the vinyl.
Not that I have a lot of vinyl. Lol. |
Apologies guys. I’m sorta dead in the water with no DAC’s. My ODSX just arrived at Steve and he’s working on it. The Duelands are coming out and V-caps back in. Also swapping back to the Off Ramp 5 USB input that was in my ODSE. Steve is working hard on his Off Ramp 6 which is xmos based. He says it sounds awesome but can’t do hi-Rez over 96k currently. I like the xmos USB input design, So I’m waiting for him to fix the Hi-Rez issue and then I’ll upgrade to the Off Ramp 6. But the 5 is exceptional and, I think, was part of the magic of the ODSE. I’m looking forward to getting it back in.
Im waiting to hear when my LH2 will arrive....
Chord DAVE has arrived back at my dealer, and I’m waiting for them to send me my replacement. It’s interesting to note that the dealer who received it back tested it (and of course couldn’t get the DAC to make the static sound it made with me) and told me that my DAVE was the best sounding DAVE he had ever heard. Likely because it had 700 hours on it. It just proves what Guido taught me years ago; that DAC’s need a thousand hours to sound their best. |
Welp. If it happens with the new one I'll decide. This one is back with Chord.
Thanks for the info thiugh. That was VERY useful!! |
Odsx and DAVE on route back to me. Yay!!!
still waiting on my LH2. Sorry for the delay. |
ODSX is back and sitting at the office. And the brand new replacement Chord DAVE is arriving tomorrow. The LH2 should be here in a few weeks.
I might not open the DAVE and sell it as NEW, unopened now that the LH2 is coming. It was great but with the ODSX back in the room and the LH2 en route I simply don’t have need for the DAVE. No matter how good it is, it’s not close to the LH2 incoming. And it’s value stays the highest with a sealed box. I am getting into headphones, but that kind of money is hard to justify for a dedicated headphone DAC.
SO if anyone is interested in a CRAZY good deal on a brand new DAVE then message me.
Also, once my LH2 arrives I will likely be selling my cherished ODSX as well. I don’t need more then one DAC. So if someone wants to secure that then message me as well.
In the meantime, I’m going to enjoy the hell
out of my ODSX now that it has the USB Off Ramp input and old caps reinstalled. I can’t wait to hear it! The Ethernet input wasn’t working for my system and the Dueland Caps just aren’t my cup of tea....
I’ll report briefly on the ODSX when it’s in the system.
Also, the Antipodes DX Gen 2 has been patiently waiting for a DAC's return to be compared to the Aurender N10. So that's pending and will be reported in a week or two.
Finally, I’ve sorta gone crazy with headphones and will post my findings thus far here and on Head-Fi when I’ve settled on Cans and DAC/amp.
Cheers all! |
I think my Davinci dealer has the model below the Merlot. I'll ask. |
I stand corrected. I was thinking of another line. Apologies. And thanks for providing the correct info.
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Hi gang. The ODSX is back from its spa week with the Dueland caps out and my precious offramp USB input back in. Even with no time on the new caps it's an improvement. I've been cooking th ODSX and it still needs about 400 more hours to hit my perfunctory 750 hours minimum before I make any true judgement calls. I'm also cooking the Antipodes DX Gen 2 in. On first test, with the DX Gen 2 still fresh, the Aurender beat it squarely and without much effort. The Gen 2 DX is leagues better then the old DX Gen 1. But I need to try a few different software server options and I need to give the DX another 400 hours as well.... then I can make judgement t calls.
I'm STILL very interested in trying a CAD CAT as well, and I was told about the SGM (Sound Galleries, Monaco) server and I will be trying that in the room after the LH2 arrives. Speaking of the LH2, looks like next week or the week after will be arrival time.
I also want to try out the Baetis server again once I finish my Antipodes/Aurender shootout.
Curious to hear how much closer the ODSX gets to the LH2 with the usb input back in and the better caps.
Sorry for the long breaks. I just don't have much to report DAC wise.
I will sneak peak that I have been bitten by the headphone bug and have been trying out and taking notes on pretty much every pair I have tried. I'll post my findings on this thread (just to keep things fresh) but suggest anyone who wants to truly discuss my findings or has questions to find the identical Head-Fi thread I will post.
Take care! |
AbeDirov - I already set all Roon to minimalist settings. Thanks. According to the forums, Roon and HQPlayer seam to be the two most respected players Antipodes sound wise. But HQ still requires a computer (still not sure I understand that). I have found that the Antipodes is VERY stable with power outages and brownouts compared to the Aurender, which is huper sensative to deep power fluctuations.
July 19th burn in ends. So that's when the sound-off will occur....
Guido - according to the guy's at the shows and their reps, Aurender's product line-up is stable for quite some time and they have no intention of adding an internal CD spinner considering how easy it is to connect through the internet to a computer where you can do your ripping. I have to admit it's a nice feature and I would welcome a dedicated USB port on the back able to recognize an external CD spinner for rips.
Peter - happy to hear the Melco. Maybe you know someone to make that happen.
Reports are that my Davinci will be shipping next week.
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Tdimler- I, once again, stand corrected. I did not go to Munich and obviously the Aurender guys keep tight lips until something is ready for distribution. https://youtu.be/a_4NEfSlb_Ilooks like a separate device dedicated to additional storage and CD ripping. Guido, it's custom made for what you were just asking for. Grins. I guess my questions about their "next" generation music server didn't warrant this as an answer. Lol |
Guido - it appeared to me to be an add on unit that would still require one of their formal server units. But I may be mistaken. |
Hi all. I’m sorry it took so long to post. I put a LOT of thought into my posts and it’s hard for me to do anything "Sale" wise without it getting back to the thread.
Its not yet the 19th. But I feel I have gotten a good taste for what the DX can do. I am reading right now on how to implement HQ Player with the Antipodes.
As far as I am aware, the best results with the Antipodes DX are attained when the unit is run with Roon directly or with Roon running through HQ Player. I have run with Roon and using the "Squeeze" software and I will figure out how to implement HQ before it leaves my room.
I have been listening frequently and with many visitors and trained ears. I am left scratching my head as I have done many times with other very well reviewed DAC’s I have had in. To me the N10 provides a more natural flow of music and emotion that the DX Gen 2 couldn’t reach. But I am second guessing myself over and over because of the myriad of threads, comments and emails who have told me they know people who think the DX is better then the N10.
I am going home today (at work now) and plan on going through my Room settings in detail to make sure I haven’t missed something. And then going to try to implement HQ Player, which seams a bit more complicated and it not quite native.
I put it up for sale because at this price level, I think it will take a while to sell and I have some wiggle time. I can always pull the ad.
Give me a few more days to compile my thoughts and listen once more. I wasn’t going to post anything yet but my ad has clearly incited panic, riots and pillaging, lol.
I can’t begin to tell you guys how important it is to me to report the most thorough and honest opinion I can. As a result, sometimes my posts are not frequent. Sorry. Hang in there. I will post when I have final decisions and opinions to provide.
Glory - this thread has proven over and over again that more expensive rarely implies better. I have dismissed many $14,18,24,33,42 thousand dollar DAC’s in comparison to my prize fighting lightweight sensation that is the Empirical Audio ODSX! I listen with dollar blinders on. It’s not about latest greatest, it’s about the best to my ears, in my room. But I have a group of friends (including dealers and engineer/manufacturers) who listen with me so that I make a final decision and report not just on my own opinion but a cumulative experience. Take everything I say with that in mind. But I guarantee every single reader that I am not influenced by anything other then honesty and a pathological quest for the best. Period. |
Hey Mike. Honored to have you post!!
I'm speaking with them now actually. I left a message with Al and am waiting for him to call back so we can organize an audition. Glad to hear your enjoying your system! I'm really looking forward to getting my Davinci Light Harmonic 2 in to elevate my system that next step, although this ODSX of mine is just flatly stupid good for the $$$.
Good to see your lurking about. Welcome! |
Follow up. Sitting in my listening room enjoying my system (which is what it’s all about, right?). Reading ALL about HQ player and it’s integration with Antipodes. Apparently HQ Player must exist on a PC or MAC and then controls the server app on the Antipodes. Although I’m sure this offers advantages and may give the Antipodes the best sound, it’s just not what I’m looking for. I want a standalone music server. I’m sure there are some who will criticize me for this attitude, but my computer is upstairs and is sometimes shut down by my family members and would add an extra layer of complexity I just don’t want to deal with. Which leaves me comparing the Antipodes with its Native Roon app controlled by the Roon App from my phone.
For those with Antipodes DX/DS products PLEASE tell me the software solution you are getting your best results from.
I'm listening to Natalie Merchant’s Peppery Man right now on the Antipodes. It sounds awesome. If I wasn’t comparing it to another server then it’s amazing. Gonna spend some more time today comparing the two.... I guess I’m dependent on using Roon direct on the Antipodes.
stay tuned. |
You guys forced me to report before I was done playing and testing. Lol. So now I need to give little updates!!
I adjusted one secondary setting on Roon on the Antipodes which turned off a small file database search setting which I can't imagine will affect anything honestly. But I started playing with something that has implemented a pretty big change which forces me to start comparing from scratch, which is great!!!!
The short explanation....
My ODSE/ODSX has always benefited from placing the Empirical Audio "Short Block" filter between source and DAC. I've related the comparison over and over and it's basically always ended better with it in. It does some subtle filtering, but most importantly divides the 5V USB power supply passing from source to DAC. The Antipodes has both a 5V on and Off USB output on its back. I used the "on" USB output and counted on my shortblock to cut that 5V supply. I just tried removing the shortblock and ran the USB from the 5V off USB output to the DAC (no shortblock in place).....
WOW! What a difference!!!!!!!!
Emailing Steve after I post this to get his thoughts. I would not have expected this, but it clearly implemented a big change.
Stay tuned.
Regarding the DX to DS comparison I can't comment. I do believe that there is equipment that requires higher levels of resolution to get the most out of them. So a DS may sound better then a DX on certain systems. I just don't know since I don't have both to compare. |
Abe - very few DAC's these days require powered USB. In fact, most use their own power supply since it sounds way better. |
Most music servers don't give you the choice. I use the ShortBlock only with the ODSX since it's designed to put it in line and it typically sounds best with it in. I have run all other DAC's with an uninterrupted USB cable. But the ODSX I always have used the Short Block. I will ask Davinci what they suggest. |
Abedirov- a quote from the Davinci Web page about their proprietary USB cables :
"Two Configurations : LightSpeed USB comes in a standard configuration, and a split configuration. Standard LightSpeed is used similarly to most USB cables: one connector on each end. Split LightSpeed has one USB-B connector and two USB-A connectors: one for signal, one for power. This configuration can be used with self-powered DACs, such as Da Vinci DAC."
So the LH2 clearly has its own power supply. I use my Short Block adapter to severe the power transferred via th USB. It works great. 👍🏻 |
