Carl109
Being mindful or even skeptical isn’t a bad thing as it allows for caution and prudence. Don’t allow it to paralyze you however. There’s an amazing amount of pickiness involved in ‘audio nut-osis’. I feel it’s more the nut behind the wheel than it’s the desired component (s).
Not everything needs be done at once either.
There’s tons of stuff around which works quite well with other stuff. The items which require closer management and selection are well into the minority. Flea powered amps + high eff speakers, Passive preamps, and some SET amps need a mite more care be given to their selection and integration for a given system… and some speakerage is a bit more
Needy.
Racing, for me, is the parallel analogy to high end audio. Both arenas protest for greater performance. The former has a narrower aim in that regard than the latter yet both are appended by the same term. Racing, requires but a stop watch to determine a winner. In audio, the owner ALWAYS is the stop watch and judge.
12 second quarter mile times ain’t too difficult to come by. It takes some doing, and expense depending upon the starting rides own ‘go’ level… the 10’s takes some more doing and a bigger investment. Lots bigger. The 9’s? Well, that’s where things start getting exponentially pricey. You’re well past the point of diminishing returns if you get one of those 9 second time slips from the officials, I guarantee.
Nine second rides aren’t ‘grocery getters’ and require tons of maintenance routinely.
When it is no longer a hobby, and the fun isn’t in it any more unless the next ‘buy’ is amazingly good, I feel then I’ve crossed the line.
I also doubt seriously anything out there holds the title of "Best in the world" or "can't be beat". Those are usually the ones I'm most suspicious.
Pitch what you can, when you want, at your own rig, and have fun in the doing of it. That’s the real deal I think, and where the fun truly lives…. when it’s a ‘want to’ rather than a “need to”, thing.
Just about anything is gonna be ‘up’ from where you’re at now, so try whatever and hear for u self. Have fun and good luck. |
Musicnoise
Some like chocolate, some like vanilla. They both come from the same size scoop.
How’d you pick your significant other? Did they mind the inspection and measurements taking process?
…or your favorite comedian, or food?
Intangibles comprise the vicissitudes of the space ship we live upon.
How do you measure the affectation of a movie? A roller coaster ride? The thrill attained from sky diving?
…or even simple pleasure itself?
Yeah.. it’s dopamine, and endorphins. Super. But we do it anyhow. Right? Why not just inject those substances into our being instead of proceeding with the act itself?
One can not apply imperical evidentiary assignments in areas wherein ‘perception’ makes the final call.
They remain only frail guidelines.
You’ve overlooked one vital ingredient, the human element. It often defies description in quantitative terms. By and large with all the vessels of learned experience at our disposal, all the seemingly immense strides so called science is so proud of making thus far, we remain infantile in our own scope and quests.
The world becomes a very scary place when it’s values are defined in terms other than black and white. Even scary is a good thing. It keeps us on our side of the road… from petting sharks… and walking off the tops of buildings.
It can prevent us from having other valid worthwhile and positive experiences too.
The world at large, is more than simple black and white. It’s in those grey areas where we find the dimensions that yield the true texture of it. Indeed that is where it’s qualatative state, and it’s mystery, it’s flavor, does indeed thrive.
Define attraction forinstance. Oops… sorry… that doesn’t get plugged into the wall outlet, so throw that one out.
I’ve seen any number of things which compare nearly exactly on paper, but are vastly different upon audition. Explain away all you wish or add in any other number of variables for that result, but it’s a very true thing.
So long as imperfect creatures construct their own imagined designs, the world will always be at the beck and call of imperfection and subject to perception. True or false, for good or ill, there we all are, adrift on a sea of human discernment and prefference.
Of course for those bound to strickly measured results, they will remain shackled to a less conflicted journey and feel quite safe along it’s way I suppose. Probably save some deal of money too for many mass fi equipment being built today is good in fact. The truly refined and beyond that the world class items, possess only marginally better specs in some cases, and not as good measurements in others, yet provide for many, greater perceived or real world, performance increases.
My Onkyo recover for ex. Has less reported THD than do my Dodd mono blocks, or Thor preamp. On paper the HT receiver even attains THX status! There’s no discounting the fact the separates out perform it however.
Specs and capacities don’t always translate to good or bad, better or worse in a world fueled by human desire and perception, nor do they equate to actual improvement at times by point of fact. By some dimensions, (oh by the way who’s doing the measuring?) it can be said the reported numbers are but marketing tools. If specifications or tallies are the grail by which all else is determined in accordance with the end value or performance, a lot of people will be either disappointed, or never experience those truly fascinating efforts being offered by the current artisan level of designers.
Few of us have either the acumen or tool set needed to perform valid testing of wire or components. Fewer probably would do it anyhow. The bottom line in this hobby is always a “see for yourself” thing.
After all, as I’ve said previously… “IF you don’t hear a diff, don’t pay the diff!” but if you never try out other things, you will never know what you might be missing either.
Numbers only matter if you mind, if you don’t mind, they don’t matter. Those numbers in my wallet do matter. |
Doug
One can be overcome by seriosity if one isn't careful. It can sure ruin an other wise fine system too.
Mmakshak
Nope… The 'Lost Medical Arts' aren't lost after all. Chicken bones, leeches, a petrie dish of maggots, & the occassional Newt are still in my Doctor’s office! They’ve been passing it off as a new slant on an older theme, but these days they’re calling it “H.M.O.”. The bones & wings are cheap… it’s them darned poltace’s where they really slam it to ya.
A decent poltice can run as much as a pretty good power cable. Don’t even ask about what they want for a private session with Madam Celeste and her crystal ball. Just between me and you, her Ouija board is just as good, a bit less stimulating, and you do not get the light show… but for half the money? Well, I can’t kick. The savings alone got me my EPS Sig III & Shunyata Python VX. Not to mention a fine return on my wager for the Giants over the Pats in the last Super bowl.
;-)) |
Life... and audio... ain't always just a numbers game, IMO.
Except during a divorce.
|
The item at hand that I take issue with is the one wherein a person says adamantly, “… it’s the numbers only which matter’ in determining good from less than good, or bad… or better for that matter.
My own background says nearly the same thing mind you. Some eight years ago I would likely have sided with Musicnoise completely. I’ve since found out otherwise for myself… and much to my shigrin in some cases. I’d not wish to restrain another from some greater experience either.
I doubt too many of us are looking at possibly suspect specifications at point of sale.
All of us need to find these things out for ourselves and in accordance with what ever level of gear or satisfaction we wish to attain.
I thought much of my notions to be not so much assumptions, but as commonly accepted pre-requisites…. Resolving system, and good hearing need be had right up front.
For instance with either of my two receivers, only one shows greater sensitivity to power cable exchanges, the Sony es. My Onkyo TX SR 805, on the other hand, has less responsiveness to power cable swap outs, though it does afford changes in the sound … just to a lesser degree. With it only my most expensive cords seem to show improvements. Therefore I don’t have to spend much on it as I’m unable to justify the expense there.
On the bench side of this issue let’s take Stereophile reviews to task for a second here… JA does the testing usually. A review of the Audio Physics Virgo III shows it’s numbers were well, far less than good on the bench, but translated very well during listening sessions, defying the numbers JA revealed.
Most recently, JA said the Bel Canto DAC 3 was the most accurate DAC or was it component, he had ever tested. Yet, he holds onto the Benchmark DAC instead… and I feel if JA wanted the BC D3 he’d be able to get one, don’t you?
One last point… I’ve spoken with at least one cable maker for some years now, off and on, and given his experiences with cable cobbling, he says he can see a cable on the oscilloscope and determine what it will sound like before hearing it, but in the final analysis he withholds his judgment for the listening sessions. I suspect he is not alone in those exercises.
For the greatest percentage of us audio hobbyists, enthusiasts, and flat out nuts… the listening session (s) are in fact our ‘final analysis’. Our own personal measuring tool. Consequently I hold fast to some precepts which have served me pretty well these last 8 years now, one’s I have learned from the good people here at A’gone, and proven to myself here at my home and at dealerships where applicable.
Basically, I’ve found everything can and usually does make a difference. Isolation, cabling, power conditioning, tubes and sure, the components too, all add up and are integral to the end result. Replace one thing in it, or if one thing is not acting as before, and I’ll surely know somethings up immediately. Somethings less, somethings more so.
And just for the record here, ALL my own listening – testing sessions are done in the ‘blind’. It ain’t all fun either. No pun intended.
System resolution of and by itself will aid in determining these ‘differences’, knowledge and experiences, will assist in deciding upon, ‘what’s really better’.
On my PC system, and a lesser degree my BR HT SYSTEM, all of my CD’s can be played there with great results. My main system is a mite more picky. Well, it’s lots more picky truth be told. Poor recordings are shown up there for what they really are, poor, very easily.
One gets in where they fit in… there’s little sense in my own mind to place for good and all, a $1,000 power cord onto a $100 source. Or spend thousands on cabling for a $500 receiver or integrated amp with bookshelf speakers. That being said, there’s someone somewhere that has done just that.
So my own designs on system building aside, the hearing is the true decider. The final analysis. Why you will pay more or less for anything in audio.
To not try however, or be contemptuous before the fact only limits your own exercise. Keeping an open mind and acting with some degree of prudence opens many doors. Prejudice closes them all.
I really do enjoy very much so, all of the rigs I have, just on differing levels of performance. Just like I used to really dig my first 125 cc dirt bike, but it didn’t compare to my drag bike. |
Lissnr
Thanks much.
I'm not trying to convert... just open eyes or perhaps, remove some blinders.
I wouldn't think anyonw should take at face value, any opinion here as the exact truth or last word, anytime on anything. I would think however the dedicated ones will ascertain for themselves their own truths.
opinions here are but likely options, and occassionally, answers.
An open mind to the in's & outs of audio system building definitely reveals it's own truth for the possessor of such a perspective. However, to each their own... |
Rdylan As to DIY cords… many are just that but we’ve missed calling them OPDIY… and just pony up the bucks for’em instead. There’s a ton of power cords available for not much money… the key question remains though is it right for you and your system? Given the expense, I guess it comes down to how you value your time and expertise in pursuing such an endeavor. Try this link http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/archive/index.php/t-103597.html for some greater insights into power cords sonics from one perspective, it’s a review of 22 inexpensive power cords. Carl109 Does having a much higher level system improve things, or render these poorer masterings even less listenable? To answer you best I'm going to have to put it in my own perspective. Higher resolution can easily become the main thrust of a systems build. Been there and definitely ‘done that’. Yes, it severely limited my disc selection… and to some extent the times of day I could listen as well. I swore I’d not go that way again. I had all the analytical and sterile you could want… and darn little satisfying involvement to the musical recreation. tons of info but not much fun. There is indeed a fine line between having a critical or analytical rig and owning a highly resolving musical system. Resolution and detail are required to retrieve ambient venue information, spaciality or dimensionality, if you will. In a word,’ Immediacy’ or another one could be ‘presence’. There’s back ground who cares music, there’s the you are there! Type, and then there’s “They’re standing right there!” or as I call it “Could you make this out as to my best friend in the world?”. The first two are way easier to be had than is that last one. I don’t get that last one with every disc but do on a good many… and that’s with tubes for power and preamplification. The devil himself may well live in the details, for exploring details simply for their own sake yields lesser the involving experience if taken too far. IMO A balancing act of a kind is required, contingent upon the whole of the ingredients. As 'Stringren' has just said here, it’s the whole of the gear being used, and not usually one item as a rule. Pressing one’s arrangement of fine audio devices seems the way to go… extracting more of what’s in each component is done in many ways, but a safe and practical one is with external wiring. I’d say isolation follows, and acoustical treatments are needed too. Some however press on immediately to modding their gear. Some sooner, some later. Investigating the effects of power cords is a great place to start. I have found when the resolution and detail becomes dryer, I’ve gone too far. When it becomes difficult to discern a performers geographical location, and/or the soundstage begins to darken up, or condense, I’ve gone too far the other way. There are other minutia, odds and ends, but those are the ones easily noticeable. In audio, familiarity does not breed contempt, it breeds boredom… or so it would seem. It’s invaluable however. That well-known signature of your own stuff will lead you along and it is very honest in how it goes about telling you these things. It’ll pay you to listen to it more so than listening to others… when it comes to finding a ‘keeper’ cord or cable… or other component for that matter. I’ve found it very special to explore just what can be done with a certain device via isolation and cabling, rather than just pluggin’ in and out new gear if it doesn’t float your boat right off. In the end those recordings which aren’t good, are sure revealed by high resolution systems. Will they go from so-so, or hmmm, maybe not tonight, to “Hey! Someone dial 911! I’ve gone deaf!”? Probably not. It will sure make you a more discerning media buyer, I’ll grant you that much. In all, I can listen to everything I own on my main rig. How long and how often, is another issue altogether. It’s also why I have lesser systems at my disposal… though these others came more by way of trickle down effect, than a premeditated act. Well, that and the fact I’m a pack rat at heart. So don’t be scared of high res rigs. Just ‘member, How high is high anyways, and ‘who’s high we talking about here?’ You’ll definitely know when you’re getting too much of a good thing, I assure you. The smile goes away, the knee quits bobbing up and down, and you start wondering what’s on TV. |
Carl109
I don’t think DS was picking or pointing to anyone specifically.
I don’t see anything wrong with your priorities or the amount of money you have into your system. Not at all. That’s why I recommended commensurate power cords from several outfits which may yield you some greater level of performance.
I guess being in Australia can pose some added issues in availability & expense, regarding trying various items, be they cables or components for that matter.
True too is the point of diminishing returns. It’s a floating point however. It seems to travel about in accordance with the price point of the overall system too. Years ago in my first few efforts I found wires at and beyond just a few hundred dollars did not provide me much betterment at all. Sure some changes were apparent, but little bettering was evident… in a system with BW 602, and 604’s. in fact the 600 series of BW were quite forgiving speakers and many sources worked ok there. The power was from my still in use Sony es HT receiver.
Moving up the food chain to the 9NT’s… things began to change. By then I had tried BK 220 Ref amp, and Krell KAV 250. Still using the rec as a preamp. About this time wires began to matter a lot more. Lots of things began to matter a lot more… not just the wires either.
I tried various other sources, and processors, still holding onto the notion wires weren’t the issue. Moved onto the Monitor gold 60’s too. Things still weren’t near satisfactory though. It was about then I found this site.
All the clamor here about system matching, power conditioning, cabling, and so forth astounded me. I thought to myself, as so many opinions were vastly apart from my own “Am I the only one right here, or am I missing out on something important?” Feeling my notions were in the minority, I figured to give credence to opinions outside my own… and just try some of them. Still prejudiced on many accounts, I did just that and began with cabling. Power cords to be exact. Enter Voodoo Cables.
I was sincerely moved by that experience. Seeing for myself what can happen to the rigs sound by simply adding a cord here or there. It was and still remains my only regret… that I did not possess more open a perspective. Had I then, perhaps I wouldn’t have sold off everything I owned then… but it is what it is. Just another lesson. In the end it always works out and where I’m at now is much better. It could have happened a mite quicker though… perhaps.
As my confabulous conglomeration of componentry has grown my current point of diminishing returns seems to reside, in regard to cabling, around the $1K +/- retail mark. Though this is my current exp. It’s not cast into stone either. There are some wires that over achieve. If they are right for this system or that. Or, more appropriately I suspect, for this or that person’s tastes, is the usual query.
The answer will always be, “Try it and see for yourself.” I’m a big proponent of getting in where you fit in. How much one spends is optional always. I’ve heard stuff at dealerships which cost many times the value of my own rig, and I wouldn’t buy them with Doug’s money… and surely not how they were set up.
Like the Flatlanders tune… Now it’s now again. It’s the set up more so than the dollars being laid down… and that’s where the finer art (if there is such a thing) in a systems building, rests. Isolation. Power conditioning. Cabling. Acoustical treatments. Not solely the components.
One of my deals can be had for about $1500 total. I’ve no problems listening to it at all. I do on a daily basis. It doesn’t take a lot of $$$ to have a very enjoyable outfit, just an open mind, and some attention to otherwise neglected peripherals.
Finding some folks in your area with whom you can swap cables and ideas will help immensely. I just borrowed some ic’s from a friend a few states away to try out, and sent him a pair of mine too so he could do likewise. That just cost shipping to and fro. Hard to beat that deal. A dealership might well assist you as well. Or simply sticking to popular brands so resale doesn’t pose a tremendous issue can reveal good results too.
There’s no time frame, no number of products which has to be encountered, and no specified dollar amount which needs be cast into a construct, for one to become either serious or involved.
My own constraints are purely fiduciary. If I ever hit that ‘red neck’ retirement (lottery) some Saturday night, one of my first thing to do is travel. Travel to here and there to see as many different systems and components as I can. In the end I fear, it won’t matter much aside from the fun of the travel itself, only having the items in my house will actually tell the tale.
… and yeah… then I’ll spend a lot of money most likely…. ‘just cause I could.
Good luck. |
If you can’t hear the difference… don’t pay the difference. Period. Some folks can, so they do.
I was an electronics tech for the U.S. Govt., and an industiral electriciain thereafter for some years. Disbelieving the talk of cables being a valid part of a system cost me a couple years worth of time & energy, and some good bit of money by not addressing cable needs throughout the system.
Folks who base their daily lives on imperical evidence tend to hold onto spec sheets and measurementsas the sole verifiable result. Attributing any said audible changes as mere illusion, or accounting them to a ‘placebo effect.
My own since experiences, has shown me the greater the resolution of one’s system the more easily the diffs of wires can be distinguished. A lesser resolving system will yield lesser significance to wire changes.
Sometimes the diffs are simply that… different. Not necessarily betterment. Although diffs can and are good things now and then too.
At this stage of the game my recommendation would be also the Power line from VD, the entry level cords from VooDoo, the Acoustic Zen Tsunami, or a VA Flavor cord. Once your system is improved upon, this rhetoric on wires either making improvements or not, will more easily be a call you will make for yourself routinely.
Always though when trying out any item you’re hot for or interested in, always put back in the original thing last… then decide.
Change any of the parameters of a cable… resistance, impedance, capacitance, inductance, or even the diaelectric of the insulating body, and changes have to be acknowledged… as all are measureable quantities. By both the human ear and insturcmnets.
Naturally, instruments will be by far the more sensitive of the two accounting sources.
Many so called ‘’digital power cords’ have higher capacitance figures than standard application power cords. Hence they afford a far greater tendency to be both darker and softer sounding, attenuating the artifacts on the power line itself or being introduced into the system from the digital components they attach to.
All the models I mentioned I believe have trial periods… so try and see for yourself. In the end it’s your ears that have to decide anyhow.
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There are plenty of inexpensive alternatives in cabling people can acquire. If they will or not try them in their own system hangs in the balance. A still more difficult hurdle is acquiring ALL likewise cabling, I believe.
Front to back, ‘same same’ wiring isn’t something I see in the majority of systems. However more synergistic is that approach. Just as any number of systems congregate various components, so too is the amassed wiring fueling it. Circumstantial purchases and subjective assignments conjure up a pot we sound chefs believe we can cook to a quite satisfactory bill of fare.
The system’s cabling can be both it’s limiting, and enhancing factors.
The question in all of this is usually, Which or What goes with this or that? I’ve asked that same self serving question many times. For me it’s driven by economics. Well, that, and impatience. Now and then by ignorance too.
However I think in more general terms a lot of the time too these days. To date I’ve found no particular rhyme or reason mandate which is always applicable aside from this: Either try something else or be satisfied with what one has in house. AND “Everything makes a difference… to some degree, more or less”.
I own a fairly ambiguous slice of wires. Ranging from well under $100 to well over $1500. Each has a purpose and it’s own qualities. Were my curiosity and patience levels commensurate with one another, and the funding available, I’d try a lot more cabling than I have so far.
Further hamstringing me is the sheer numbers of wires that present themselves to the end user for trial or comparison. I have noted an inherent synergy via the use of all the same brand cabling in the singular event I was allowed a couple years ago. Yet even then the types or models of the cabling differed some. The results were unexpectedly rewarding. Though improvements were surely evident, and system performance was improved a good deal, it wasn’t exactly what I was looking for in the end. Neither could I justify the overall expense. So I kept those which gave me what I wanted and moved on to find the remaining and still, “missing links”. I’ve managed to find them sometimes on purpose, other times coincidentally.
I don’t feel it really matters what the particular wire actually costs, as that will always be a relative concern, I believe it does matter about the fit itself, and the desired goals. There’s the rub indeed. The goal itself. Realistic ones are attained without much issue. Unrealistic ones might not be found out at all. Honesty is one of the keys. Experience, is another. Ego for me also plays a formidable part… it’s the dog that is always barking at my heels. Feduciary means usually keeps my Ego to just an annoying murmur.
I mean to take no one to task for their belief system. Only to share my own experiences and give some voice to the notion of gaining such experiences is the only true and sure way an answer will become a reality.
I simply maintain anyone whose mindset says a thing is this or that without some due course of trial and effort, is not on the beam, as it were, and has become mired in in a myopic state of affairs.
With the little to no cost in home trials and the low cost option of the A’gone “buy and try” shuffle, it’s just to easy a thing to do and verify personally, that I’m concerned with those who say “No” and wonder why it’s not, “Try…. ”. |
