A somewhat unusual request for PrePro help


I have been in 2 channel high end for a long time. I've been very happy for many years with the following:

EAD T1000 transport
EAD DSP-7000 v.III D/A
Bedini Preamp
Bedini 803 amp
Shahinian Diapason speakers
Kimber and Siltech cables throughout

Like others I am struggling with the desire to move into HT, without sacrificing musical reproduction. My problem is as follows: my house does not allow me to support a dedicated 2 channel AND a HT setup (not enough room). I also find that most HT receivers I have heard (B&K, Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, some others) really do not sound all that good - each in their own way (relative to what I'm used to) for unadulterated musical listening. So I have decided to try and put together a HT system with parts of my existing system.

Since the space I have for HT is also non-ideal (it's big enough, but its arrangement makes for troublesome equipment placement), I decided that I would try to replace parts of my system in an effort to try and consolidate things. One of the first new things I bought was the Marantz DV-8400 DVD player. I listened to a few units (including Denon and Sony) in the hope of finding a universal player that would work well with 2 channel music. I settled on the 8400 because it was the best compromise (for me) given its cost. It does 2 channel in a nice, musical fashion. The low end is reasonably articulate (but does not go down quite as low as my EAD rig). The mid is somewhat laid back, but not recessed. The high end is (again) musical and reasonably airy (but not as extended or haze-free as the EAD rig). I know this sounds like a *negative* assessment, but it really isn't. Given that I was not about to look at a Linn Unidisk or anything like that, it's really quite nice. The Marantz is also quick and has nice pace. It was a steal at the price I paid. Plus, it's video performance is quite good.

So I am now looking to replace my Bedini pre with a HT prepro. Now I know that I *should* be looking at using my Bedini in some kind of pass-thru fashion with a HT device just handling multichannel, but I really am trying to consolidate things, so I am willing to make compromises, but only very SMALL ones (g).

I've read up on a few prepros, and have narrowed my interest to Bryston, Cary, Naim, and EAD. My desires are for the following:

Multichannel analog direct mode
2 Channel analog direct
Video switching is not a requirement
The usual other stuff that makes for HT audio capability (but well done)

I am primarily hoping to find something in the $2500-$4000 range (like new or new) that will help the 8400 in both the upper and lower extreme, but not at the expense of grain or hardness at the top, or boominess at the bottom. I am greatly interested in the Naim, but I am a little concerned about how much of the classic "Naim sound" it may have. Now my audio experience is all in 2 channel, and may be a little out of date. But my memories of the Naim sound were that of incredible pace and rhythm, and excellent midrange, a tuneful upper and lower end, but not as airy on the top or as resolved at either end as I would have liked. Additionaly, I found that the old style Naim sound tended (IMO) to impose that sort of Naim-toe-tapping effect on everything that went through it, even when it didn't seem right. Again, IMO, but if the Naim sound has evolved over the years to keep that sense of pace but also add extension and openness then it will definitely help in my thoughts regarding the AV2.

I would greatly appreciate help and opinions from those of you who are familiar with the sound of the Bedini/Shahinian combination (are there any left out there?). As far as speakers go, assume I will eventually move to maybe Arcs or the like for rears, but I don't know yet what to do about a center (unfortunately Shahinian does not make a shielded speaker).

Is it possible for the price range I've laid out to get HT sound that will at least approach what I'm used to?
tonyptony

Showing 20 responses by tonyptony

Yeah, my wife would not be too happy about turning our den into an equipment obstacle course! (g)
Yes, EAD comes up quite often in the forum's discussions about good 2 channel performance. Can you characterize the difference in music reproduction between the 8000Pro and the 8800Pro? I may be able to get an 8000Pro used for the kind of money I'm looking to spend, but an 8800Pro may be a bit dear.
Beemer, Sean, I would love to have two systems, but as I said in my top post that is a bit of a problem. My high end system has to almost literally be assembled every time I want to listen to it. I just don't have the room anymore to support two independent systems. I can't put my 2 channel in any of the bedrooms, or in the living room, so that leaves the den. That's where I can put one system. And I want that system to (primarily) allow me to listen to music, but also support my movie watching. Sean, you're right, I'm not a hard core videophile, but at the same time I'm not sure I have a lot of alternatives here. If I don't find a way of morphing my 2 channel system into something I can also use for HT then the high end system loses. To both you and Beemer, I would ask you to tell me a bit about your experiences in trying to do this.

Shouldn't a good HT prepro with real 2 channel direct (or pure analog pass through) be no different from a 2 channel POV than trying to pick a new stereo preamp?
Okay. Let's say I go along with this (BTW, Beemer, I see from your other posts that you have quite a 2 channel system from the looks of it). My Bedini preamp does not have a unity gain output, so unless I either run it fully cranked or make some kind of volume preset mark I will have to look at another preamp. Assume for the moment I find some way of using my existing preamp. What could you all recommend as a quality multichannel processor to be used for HT?
Gunbei, I'm very envious that you've been able to do this all in one room (it must be some room!), but you must believe me when I say I know I could not put a 2 channel and HT system in my den (I've tried with some friend's equipment).

I am the first to admit what I'm doing will be a compromise, but if I want to have any kind of listenable 2 channel available to me I have to do it. Before I moved into this house I had a dedicated listening room which I used for close to fifteen years, both in building a music system and listening to it. (This doesn't count the 10 years before that just finding out all I could about high end audio.) I just don't have that anymore. I'm willing to lower my standards, but just enough to find an acceptable compromise. I have to live with this reality.
Rontube, I could maybe see what the MX119 goes for on the used market. I haven't heard any Mac stuff in quite a few years. Can you give me a feeling for the sonic character of this device?
Upadte: Ron, forgive me for being an idiot. I guess the McIntosh has only just come out. Probably not many on the used market!
Jeff, I have NO intention of getting rid of anything of mine. Even if I ultimately replace my EAD transport / DA with the Marantz 8400, I will just box away the EAD stuff. Same for the Bedini 866.

I have been thinking the same thing about the center channel. I have never really taken to the whole center channel concept for either HT or music. I've found that there is an odd effect especially when sounds pan across all three front speakers (of those I have heard). So I'm going to go into this without a center (for right now); the Diapasons do just fine in developing a coherent center, thank you. (Of course, in about a month Everest will be releasing classic true three channel recordings, so that brings up a whole 'nother problem!)

Your last point is the key: who makes a good "clean processor that has a good quality passive option"? My thoughts during these past few days have led me to believe that if I can find such a thing, then I can keep my Bedini gear in line and have the processor just be a passive through to the amp for two channel use. Then for HT I can just switch in the processor for multichannel stuff. Sound like a doable plan?

It's nice to hear from someone else who doesn't think either Dick Shahinian or John Bedini were / are some kind of odd footnote in high end audio. Dick especially has never gotten the recognition he deserves (IMO).
I understand your position, Sean. I've done some further research into the postings here, and there are more than a few people who have tried this and not been happy. So I have to consider that it is a difficult thing to do, at best. I think my first post perhaps was not as clear as I would have liked. If you see my response to Jeff you'll see that what I would like to try and do is keep as much of my system intact as possible. I really don't want to necessarily replace my preamp with a prepro - that was the hope. But if I can't do that then I'm willing to see if there's a good prepro or just a good processor that has a pure passive pass thru so that I can put it between my preamp and amp in that mode for 2 channel use. Then have that passive tap switched into the multichannel processing for when I want to do HT. Does such a good thing like this exist?
Thanks for the info on the Aragon. I did not discount it from my consideration, really. I just had not looked into it very much. I will explore this further.
Maril, this is very interesting news. I am also very curious as to how you would characterize the difference in sound between the Bryston and McIntosh. I had heard that the 1.7 had a very good analog preamp capability. My recollection of Bryston gear was a quality of transparency, speed, extension, and very much detail oriented. Was that your interpretation of the 1.7? How does the Mac compare?
Nighthawk, in my ideal approach I would plan to get a two (or three) channel amp to support the additional amplification. Like you, I'm not sold on the merits of a center channel. I'm not sure about going the receiver route. I'm a big believer in trying to get a consistent "voicing" in my system. I'd like to approach that in HT no differently than in my 2 channel experiences. In that regard, I will probably get a pair of Shahinian ARCs or Slants for the surround channels. There aren't really many options from other manufacturers in matching with anything from Shahinian. As I would like to get a consistent voicing for multichannel music I don't see where it's worth the risk or trouble of trying to find someone else's speakers for surrounds.

I have heard amps that have a similar sound to the Bedini, so I would feel better going that route.

Again, I'm not sure how I feel about going with a receiver-centered approach. Maybe I have my high end thumb stuck too far up my a$$, but honestly most of the HT receivers I've heard that are not too expensive I have not been too impressed with. I still have to consider the quality of a multichannel music presentation. I agree that for movies I could probably be happy with a decent receiver. If I could find a musically satisfactory HT receiver for that kind of money - and if I could get a reasonable match in voicing with my existing amp - it might be a viable option.

BTW, it seems you are not familiar with the Diapasons; the low end is the least of my problems. The Diapason is a complex midrange / high end module sitting atop a Double Eagle subwoofer. A pair of these Double Eagles are pretty much the bomb when it comes to musical low frequency reproduction. (Yes, I believe that there is such a thing as stereo low end.)
Hmm, that's an interesting tidbit about adding a sub for LFE even with full range fronts. I'll have to keep that on the list of things to juggle in this whole merry-go-round. Thanks.
Yes, I've head that there are such subs, Dave. One more data point to keep in the mix.

To all, as far as one of my original points goes, what if I got something like a McCormack MAP-1 multichannel preamp? How does something like this stack up against a decent 2 channel? I'm coming to the conclusion that I don't think I want (or need) a processor of any sort. My Marantz DV8400 has channel level adjustments, DD, DTS, True Surround, and distance settings (which don't work for SACD, though). This kind of thing is getting to be more and more common with source components, so why do I want to trouble myself with multiple sets of A/D/A conversion? That's something that still has me put off by HT: if I'm going to drop a huge piece of change on a HT processor why do I want a DVD player? Why don't I just get a quality DVD transport? I never understood the concept of paying for D/A converters you weren't going to use. (rant mode off)

So how about this idea of using an analog multicannel preamp?
Sean, is it possible to use the center for movies but then deselect it for multichannel music? I assume this would depend on the prepro being used. If that's the case I would maybe go that route, as I have heard MC music a number of times (on a few different systems) and I rarely find the center channel either necessary or desirable. I concede that it would in fact be useful for movies. The only remaining problem would be to get a center that would integrate well (yes, even for movies!) with my Shahinian fronts.
My Shahinian brother (Holzhauer)! You bring me news I did not know. I have a recollection of the new tweeters going in, but when did the Double Eagles get this indicated redesign?

Also, can you describe the new 100W monos? Is it "Bedini high bias AB" or did he finally come out with a new pure Class A mono? Do you have a point of reference you can use for a sound compaison (250/250, 803, Plinius, Rowland)?

What are you using for a MC controller?
Yes, I saw the pictures. There're a couple of things that look a little familiar there (bg)! I'll have to give Dick a call about the new DEs. I have a friend who has the Hawks, and one of the things I was afraid to admit was that, while the single Hawk subs did not go down as low as my DEs, they seemed to be a bit quicker, which I think helped with giving them a slightly better feeling of pace. Do you find that true with these new DEs compared to the old?

Do you find that the new Bedini 100 is actually better in the bass than the 803? (I also have a highly modified 250/250 - modified by John himself - I wonder how that would sound next to the 100?)

I will send you a PM reagrding other thoughts Shahinian.
Sean, I had already asked Richard about this. If you may not already know, his position is driven first and foremost by what is good for music. In that regard he is NOT a believer in a center channel. I already knew they offered nothing in the way of a shielded center (some of his customers have actually hung a Hawk or Diapason module upside down from the ceiling!). He has not yet offered a suggestion for an alternative maker's center as usable in a Shahinian system. I started another thread for this in the Speakers forum.