"p.t. barnum is validated once more"
"Forgive him Joshc for he know not what he sayeth." It is true, I used to be a hard core skeptic until the moment it was proven to my satisfaction it wasn't the plecebo effect. Welcome to the alchemy arena of audio and ALWAYS, trust your ears! |
Well Rok2id, I didn't expect you to concede so quickly, come on, state your case.
Great points Chicagojtw this is important to ensure that you aren't being fooled by any number of factors that can make you believe you're hearing something that in reality you aren't. This is going to be an interesting thread. |
Timrhu I completely concur with what you said, absolutely! These tests must be done over a period of time and the results MUST be consistent. An initial response to a change in sound is usually positive as you state. What is harder to ignore is a consistent result over time with careful assurance that all else in the system remains the same. At that point, trust your ears. |
Forget the logic and science of what should be Rok2id. I agree with your premise but what you have to do is listen before being biased into a logical conclusion based on what you think should be. I understand your point and I'm not sure there is a definitive scientific explanation of what we perceive to hear but it is my contention that one can hear differences in cables regardless of what the actual causes are for those differences. In my experience the differences are much more apparent the greater the resolution of the system. |
"being biased into a logical conclusion" you wanna retract that:)
No because my logic always won out until I started doing extensive listening and realized I was hearing differences, sometimes profound differences between ic's and speaker cables. Sometimes there are no apparent differences. How can this be?
"Whether the difference is better or worse is a subjective judgement made by the listener" I agree Ahendler
The history of this hobby always has the naysayers and a healthy dose of skepticism is always a good thing to maintain to keep reality in check. All I'm saying is that I can hear differences between cables that matter to me in the best examples and don't in many or even most cases. |
Furthermore let me ask if the doubters believe there is a different in the sound characteristics of the same tube type by different manufacturers in a given audio device with all electrical parameters measuring the same? I'll bet most would say yes and some technically knowledgeble enough might be able to give reasons as to what is causing those differences. Wire is much more difficult in this respect outside the known electrical parameters of capacitance, inductance and shielding and how those factors might be contributing overall into the differences we hear or are there other factors as well as Jallen notes? |
I agree Grannyring, it isn't really important. What IS important is conveying to people that don't really have an opinion but are inquiring, maybe novices new to the hobby that there are two camps on this subject and to find out for yourself. Having said that I will say that it should NOT be anywhere close to the top of priorities in putting together a musically satisfying system, more like last. So far as power cords are concerned, DEAD last.
It really is an individual and personal endeavour for each to explore to the degree they see fit. Beyond that, it really isn't that important to me if folks don't believe it, I really don't care if they do or not.
Concerning the topic of price, which was never part of the original question, I don't believe it is relevant to this thread but it has surfaced. Since it has surfaced, to each his own, again listen with your own ears and you decide. It can get nuts, I agree but one man's nuts is another's nirvana. I wouldn't put it to myself to make any judgement on what one can or is willing to spend after all in the grand scheme of this hobby 95% of the rest of the world would consider us all nuts if they were let in on the details of our expenditures for this hobby, at least some of us! :) |
" I know all the essential truths about audio equipment. Working forty years in electronics will do that."
I really don't know what your background is Rok2id and frankly it isn't important. If you have come to this site with preconceived notions and are attempting to "set things right" in a search for truth, you are quite frankly in the wrong place. If you are new to this hobby, or at least have limited experience listening to the gear and the effects that seasoned listeners have spent years doing, how can you be so certain in your beliefs?
The main theme of this thread and many that you will find on this site is to use your ears, trust them. Over time you will realize that it really is the most important factor in finding your truth, after all that is what matters most. All most of us really want is reproduced music that is satisfying to us personally. As stated above skepticism is a good thing but if your skepticism isn't balanced with curiosity it is nothing more than cynicism and really, what is the point of that? |
I hope my post didn't discourage you Rok2id, it wasn't my intention. I really believe in what I said. I've been in this hobby a long time and prior to the internet much of what I learned was far more gradual than it is now with the vast amount of information and experiences available. The improvements and knowledge I've gained over the past 10 years would have never been realized if not for this site and others. I never believed half of what I read because it just didn't make any sense to me. This is the point, you really have to listen. I am absolutely convinced now that measurements of electronic equipment DO NOT tell the whole story of what we hear. If you remain entrenched in your belief system based on your knowledge of electronic theory without listening you are not giving it a chance, no curiosity. How can you be so certain that what you believe is right? You really can't but then again maybe you aren't curious enough to find out first hand. If you still don't believe it after comparing then at least you can speak with greater authority and self satisfaction. |
"I was told 'you have to have faith'. As far as I am concerned, that ended the argument. You can't argue with faith."
No YOU WERE TOLD TO TRY LISTENING ! |
"The original poster thinks there are sonic differences between cables. That's great, if he's happy why should I try to convince him otherwise"
Rja, I don't think you read through this thread carefully, I didn't read anywhere where anyone was trying to convince anyone about anything but their personal experiences. The Truthsayers were the disbelievers that essentially stated its all a bunch of hogwash based on an implied group think philosophy (Rok2id's "I don't think you have fully understood the implications of the philosophy that permeates this site." comment) What kind of bulls..t is that? I am personally insulted by that remark. Look around this site, different folks with different ideas and different tastes. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just relaying MY personal experiences as did the OP in his opening.
The point isn't to prove a point but to relay personal experiences. It isn't an article of faith it is trusting the two apendages on either side of your head and not relying TOTALLY on measurements that may but may not totally explain what we are hearing.
The real guys with the religion are the guys that buy into the science with the BELIEF that all that we hear can be measured, end of story. I don't care if they believe that all I'm here to do is share what I can hear without trying to prove anything to anybody. |
Rok21d
You really DO have a hard time listening don't ya? I'm outta here. |
Paul Graham your post REALLY made my smile of the day, thanks! Now I'm REALLY outta here. |
