To Paul_graham:
This is getting to be like the Greek philosophers debating the number of teeth in a horse's head. Maybe someone should count. Or in this case, experiment. |
p.t. barnum is validated once more. |
how do the different speaker cables do their magic? explain it to me please. |
"It is true, I used to be a hard core skeptic until the moment it was proven to my satisfaction it wasn't the plecebo effect."
well I guess that settles that. |
if you take a speaker cable that cost thousands and replace one side with a walmart 12 gauge wire and then measure the signal from each side at the end that attaches to the speaker will the signals be the same? |
then how many possible differences are there? |
tubegroover
"being biased into a logical conclusion" you wanna retract that:) |
ahendler:
does difference = 'better' or improved?? |
ahendler:
my only concern is for the guys just getting started, and post asking for advice on how to get started. one person wrote in asking for that advice, and on the first response, was told to start off with a very good power cable. That is an outrage. The pity is many many ecperienced people on this site know better, but seem to be reluctant to challenge the "if YOU can hear it, its real" crowd. |
Rja
i'm sorry you were forced to read it. |
if these wires cost 5-10 dollars then all you have said would be ok. but we are talking about hundreds even thousands of dollars. the differences should be 'obvious'and 'immediate'. but of course there is no difference to be heard. |
To Antipodes_audio
I thank you for a very interesting post. I will have to reread it many times until my puny brain can comprehend it all. But one question I have is this: can you give me any information on the manufactoring process. What do you do to achieve the different properties of the cables. You mentioned that more expensive cables perform better than cheaper ones, then the question is what do you do or fail to do to achieve the different price points. These price differences in electronic equipment and speakers are more readily apparent, but cables sort of look like cables. :)
thank you |
dekay.
which post gave you that impression? |
dekay.
but you are correct just a rookie seeking truth. |
dekay.
how do you know what my real world experiences are? I know all the essential truths about audio equipment. Working forty years in electronics will do that. Now maybe you are better versed in the pathetic, absurd drivel that passes for debate and truth on this site. But you don't have to read my posts. So if you will ignore me, I can assure you I can and will ignore you. But be clear, I will opinin as I please. |
some guy offered a million dollars if one of the so-called audio gurus at stereophile, could pick the 'high end' cables vs lamp cord in a blind test. that million is still on the table. anyone need a quick million? the guru called in sick. :) |
To Dekay
G company 702nd. Uijongbu 75-76 and 89-90 where you ever there? |
I have concluded that you are all correct. This is not my sort of place. I will move on. I did get some information on speaker placement and external sites. I thank you for that. |
'If you have come to this site with preconceived notions and are attempting to "set things right" in a search for truth, you are quite frankly in the wrong place'.
I came to this site to talk about stereo equip and music. I agree, I am in the wrong place.
'All most of us really want is reproduced music that is satisfying to us personally'
I have that now. |
I am not discouraged. I just asked a simple question.
If the signal,i.e., the information on two different cables going to identical speakers in the same enviroment is the same. Why would the sound out of the speakers be different?
I was told 'you have to have faith'. As far as I am concerned, that ended the argument. You can't argue with faith.
I don't think you have fully understood the implications of the philosophy that permeates this site.
I do not have some sort of personal 'belief system' when it comes to hifi equipment. I follow the science. The people I learned from are all dead, and they had no agenda. They just loved the equipment and music. So do I. BTW I don't think there is anyone on this site more curious than I am. Hence my question in the first place. |
Rja
'I say believe what you want to believe and leave everyone else alone'!
which is exactly what I will do. |
Lord, my burden is great
you have a stereo system. You decide for some reason that the sound you hear can be 'better'. You must have a shortcoming that you can describe i.e. lack of a certain freq response, no soundstage, noise/distortion, lack of dynamic range etc.....
1.why would you conclude the cable is at fault?
2. which cable do you buy? do they have what problems the cable fixes printed on the package?
3.If cable #1 $500 improves your sound does that mean cable#2 $600 will improve it more?
4. can you reach a point where you undo some of the earlier improvements?
5. do the makers say what effect their product will have on your system?
just curious, do you believe that lifting the cables off the carpet improves the sound? |
Tubegroover
'I'm outta here'
Me2 enjoyed it. |
Paul_graham
'If I told you a beautiful sunset and a naked model in my lap made the scotch taste better'
now I do believe this. with unshakeable faith! :) |
|
To Antipodes_audio:
Thanks for the very detailed discussion. It increased my understanding of the wire question. My next question is this: A commonly held opinion on this site, states that you have to have a system that is capable (expensive enough?) of allowing a person 'hear' the effects of wire. Is that true, or can wire be heard on so-called 'Lo or mid-fi' systems? Assuming the listerner has normal hearing.
Thank You |
To Chrissain:
'They indeed make a difference, and if you cant hear it, you should get out of the hobby.'
Is your decision final, or do I have a right to appeal? |
To Calloway:
'my guess is either your hearing is somehow lacking or your system is not good enough to hear the improvement that some cables make.'
after viewing your system I think it could be both. Awesome setup! |
To T_bone:
'I think that the debate about how well wires carry signal is to some extent kind of silly'
The so called debate is whether or not wire can change the signal. Saying it can is silly. Saying it can change sound stage and detail and Lord, let us not forget mid-bass, is down right absurd.
All this can be proven by anyone. It just requires two people, both committed to finding the truth. One to install and change cables and another to listen, for days,weeks,months, then compare notes. The peoblem would be how to prevent the listener from seeing which cable is playing.
I thnk we don't give enough importance to the role eyesight and the awareness that a component has been changed, plays in what we think we hear. |
To Blkadr:
You are hereby charged with 'listening under the influence'(of your brain and eyes) :) |
If you can't answer the question, dazzle them with bs. |
To Antipodes_audio
I think you need to reread my posts. I used the word BS once, and that was not directed at you. I am not here to do myself 'any good'. I am not trying to win anything. As far as I know there is nothing to win. I am certainly not angry. Angry at who and for what? ALL my comments are actually directed at the young guys just starting out. Economic times are tough and money is tight. Families are involved. This is No time to be WASTING money on NONSENSE, such as wire and power cords. And EVERYONE on this site knows it's nonsense. It's sad the more well known and respected guys won't speak out. BTW your little fear/anger psycho-babble is wrong! |
To T_bone:
you make a lot of good points, and I will try to respond to them all.
I would love to have the results of your test. Now we are getting somewhere.
As far as having to involve cd players and the rest of the system, well thats what we are talking about. HIFI systems. Some people are trying to twist this thread into some discussion of physics lab results, but the question is, does wire change what comes out of the speaker. If you can hear a difference, that is actually what you are saying. What happens on the wire surface at a Lab at MIT or some place is not the question. The question is HOW does it affect my hifi playing Beethoven's 9th to such a degree that I can hear it? |
To T_bone:
'The nice thing about the 'wire is wire' argument for people like you is that it is easy to be satisfied. You can simply buy the cheapest CDPs and amps which look good. You don't need to worry about tubes vs transistors (it's just wire vs wire) and you don't need to worry about Class A vs Class B vs Class D (it's also just wire vs wire). CDPs are simple - bits is bits. Jitter is a figment of people's imagination or an artifact of the CD manufacturing process. Speakers and phono cartridges you might be able to claim are key, because they are not electronic signal carriers but physical transducers. But everything between tonearm output to speaker input can be garage sale castoffs linked with lamp cord.'
Now this is where you lost me. Why does my position on wire mean I buy the cheapest components? I don't get the connection. Tubes went out Econs ago. I have had class A and class AB amps. My current amp is both. I don't know whether jitter is real or not, but I paid a grand for my CD Player, so I better not hear any. I threw my phono cart away with my Thorens, or at least I threw them into the garage. Your last sentence is nonsense. BTW, I never said amps is amps or cdps is cdps, BUT some very prominent people have, including my guru's Len Feldman, Julian Hirsch and Peter Aczel. So who am I to disagree? BTW, most 'high end" amps cost what they cost to a large degree because of what it took to make them LOOK like they do. And they look GOOD.
|
To T_Bone:
'but I expect that given the way you have presented your ideas (or rather, your attack on others' comments)'
This seems to be a recurring theme on this site, concerning my comments. Am I doing something wrong? Breaking some rule? If I am, please set me straight. I am relatively new here. |
To Antipodes_audio:
I see your point. Maybe I should tone it down a little. |
To T_bone:
All of your points are well taken. I guess I still have a lot to learn about high-end audio. I think I will now withdraw from the 'wire' battle, bloodied but unbowed. I thank all those who contributed to the discussion. |
