A New Believer

I second the comment by Bill (Audiofeil), and the similar comment by Blkadr.

It's surprising how cable debates always seem to turn into arguments about whether differences do or don't exist, and ignore what is IMO the real question, how strong is the correlation between performance and price. See my post here for some thoughts on that question. (Ignore the first paragraph in that post, which is about a different subject).

Regards,
-- Al

04-13-11: Antipodes_audio
In our case it is the cost of the materials that makes almost all of the difference.

Antipodes_audio, can you explain why and how more expensive materials will tend to reduce (to a degree that is significant at audible frequencies) the "two-fold time-domain issues" that you mentioned as being key, namely "signal-smearing and phase distortions"?

Thanks. Regards,
-- Al

Antipodes_audio, thank you for the comprehensive response.

Electrical engineers are very inclined to a reductive view of physics, dismissing many known issues as irrelevant at audio frequencies. By that they mean they are too small to be heard. Convenient when making a competent product, but how exactly do they know we can't hear them? As I say our ear/brain is incredibly sensitive to time issues, as that system is constantly separating out what we hear, its direction and its location, and that system is far more dependent on time-domain accuracy than timbral accuracy.

I am in agreement with this, up to a point. However, I would respectfully submit that there is a flip side to this line of reasoning. If we can’t clearly draw a line defining the boundaries of audibility, we also can’t predict when the point of overkill will be exceeded, and when the wrong parameters are being focused on.

It would seem safe to say that the chirp of a bird ten miles distant will be inaudible. Similarly, it would seem safe to say that one femtosecond of “time smear” will be inaudible, and will be swamped by other inaccuracies in the system as well. So there would seem to be finite limits to the extent to which reason, common sense, and technically informed “a priori” judgment should be deemed inapplicable to audio.

That applies to the cable designer, as well as to the consumer. How does the designer determine what design approaches to investigate, develop, and try out, when the point demarcating overkill for any given parameter is so nebulous? How does he know that he is focusing on the right parameters in the first place? How does he know that applying comparable focus and investment of time and resources to development of less expensive approaches won’t yield results that are just as good or possibly even better? Reasoned, technically informed judgment, common sense, technical knowledge, and experience all have their place.

And along the lines of a comment you made in your initial post above, it would seem safe to assume that those qualities, and just as importantly the motivations, of different designers will differ.

Regards,
--Al

04-20-11: Stops
Shadorne: Interesting but the rise and fall time of the signal is relevant and therefore the impact of the impedance is also relevant even at "audio" frequencies.

Keep in mind that the risetimes and falltimes of the source material, the source component, the amplification, the speakers, and our ears are all limited, and with the exception of some amplification components do not extend into the rf region.

And even if "transmission line" or other cable effects that occur at rf or upper ultrasonic frequencies were somehow audible despite the limited bandwidth/risetime/falltime of everything else that is involved, there would seem to be no reason to expect those effects to be predictable, or to be consistent from system to system, or to be significantly correlated with price.

I certainly agree, though, that impedance can be important in analog audio cables. But the reason for that is because of the interaction of its constituents (resistance, inductance, capacitance) with the impedance and other characteristics of the components the cable is connecting. Those interactions are technically predictable. More importantly, pretty much any given set of impedance parameters is obtainable across most of the price spectrum.

Regards,
-- Al

04-20-11: Stops
Al: There is a fly in the ointment though. Speaker loads are very far from being predictable speaker to speaker. The low output impedance of an amplifier will help but as I said in the first post you have the cable and the speaker in series.

I agree.

Implicit in my comment about the predictability of the interactions between cable impedance and the impedance and other characteristics of what is being connected was the thought that the effects of any given cable will vary widely depending on what the cable is connecting. Sometimes in opposite directions, in fact. Nevertheless they are generally predictable for a given combination of cables and components, assuming the technical parameters of both are known.

For example, a low capacitance interconnect cable used as a line-level interconnect will tend to have GREATER bandwidth/faster risetime than a higher capacitance cable, as a result of its interaction with the output impedance of the component that is driving it. That same low capacitance cable, if used as a phono cable in conjunction with a moving magnet cartridge, will tend to have LOWER bandwidth/slower risetime than a higher capacitance cable, as a result of its interaction with the inductance of the cartridge. Same cable, exactly opposite effects depending on what it is connecting. Those effects will sometimes occur at frequencies well below 20kHz.

Feedback amplifiers can measure well under continuous drive but can fare badly in transient conditions.

Agreed also. Although in typical situations I would expect cabling to play a role in that which is minor or negligible, relative to the performance of the amplifier itself and to the sonic effects of amplifier/speaker interaction.

Regards,
-- Al

04-21-11: Stops
Al: I am not sure I wholly agree with the concept that the speaker cables have an insignificant effect....

Stops, with all due respect that is a complete misreading of what I have said, which surprises me after your previous response. My reference to speaker cables having a minor or negligible effect strictly applied to your comment about the effect of amplifier feedback on transient response, and applied to the role played by the speaker cable in that specific effect (relative to the more important role of the amplifier design itself, and the interaction of the amplifier with the speaker).

Early on in this thread, in my post dated 4-10-11, I explicitly seconded a comment by Audiofeil which said essentially that cable differences exist and are easily perceivable in many systems, but that the correlation between performance and price is small. I also expressed the view that the real question that should be focused on when it comes to cables is the degree of correlation between performance and price. I provided a link to a post I had made in another thread on that subject, in which I provided rationale for that position, at some length.

Everything else I have written in subsequent posts in this thread has been consistent with those viewpoints, that cables can and do make significant differences in many systems, but that in my opinion, and in the opinions of several others who have posted in this thread in addition to Audiofeil, the correlation between performance and price is a weak one.

Regards,
-- Al