A full range speaker?
Someone above said 35, for me it a solid 30.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Each his own I'd much rather have a 40hz bottom midwoofer that offers a cleaner superior 40hz-1khz range. This is the tradoff. Seas Magnesium Excel goes to 40hz, The Scanspeaks go to 25hz Magnesium's are more musical in the 200-1khz range. I don't care for paper cones, Heard too many paper cones back in the day. So i give up the lower **tight punch** in these Scans, for a superior voicing of the 200hz-1khz range of the Magnesium cones. . Always a tradeoff. The Seas newer cones, Graphene gives a more kick in the lows, but at a price, 2x;s((W22 = $550 each!!) the price of magnesium Again trade off, $250 bargain vs a wallet busting $550. For what, ? a few hz's below 40hz?? = Not worth it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6B6WjAzuc8 |
A full range speaker? Many claim to be, but how many can handle a full orchestra’s range?That range is from 26hz to around 12khz including harmonics, but the speakers that can go that low are few and far between. That is a shame, since the grand piano, one of the center points of many orchestral and symphonic performances, needs that lower range to produce a low A fully, however little that key is used. I used to think it was 32hz, which would handle a Hammond B-3’s full keyboard, so cover most of the musical instruments range, but since having subs have realized how much I am missing without those going down to 25hz with no db’s down. What would you set as the lower limit of music reproduction for a speaker to be called full range? I’m asking you to consider that point where that measurement is -0db’s, which is always different from published spec's. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Odd you would post this, just as I am listening to Regna Schirmers' 2000 recording of Schnirrke's 3 sonatas. A reference piano rdcording if ever there was one. I am pondering if the wide band which arrives Friday is able to match what I am hearing with The Frankenstein. I mean it goes deep and powerful, The Frankenstein has dual W18's, vs the Vox as a single driver, If the Vox does actually go to the claimed 20hz, this might give it a chance to match dual W18's going to 40hz. Then also to consider the Vox is like 97db sens, the W18E001's a miserable 87db, What might be giving the W18's that nice solid punch in the piano low register is the Mundorf high ends caps. Thing is how often does classical muisc have notes under the 40hz range?? Ravel and Debussy , did not write much in the super low registers. So honestly i consider the 20hz-40hz, as nothing more than a **bonus** = not necessary. Dual W18's/87db/40hz/Mundorf cap vs Vox 97db/20hz Can't say which will offer the deeper resolution of the low piano notes. My concern is can the wide band handle the voicing of a symphony orchestra in full swaing, as in Ravel's Daphne and Chole. The Millennium tweeter crashed in such passages. This to me will be the real test of a wide band for classical music. Dome tweeters have a rough time attempting to voice all those fq's via a 3/4 inch voice coil. + The new wide bands have an astounding flat fq chart , allowing for a full representation of even the tiniest nuances which most domes struggle with. I'm guessing the wide band will reveal all sorts of nuances which the Millennium had missed picking up. |
Oh, and the top end is way more extended than you think. It extends far beyond 20kHz, to 40k at least if not 60k. No, you cannot hear that high. But instruments produce harmonics that high, which unless reproduced we lose fidelity
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OK this helps me understand what my tech was saying about the above 15khz range. There may not be much music above 15khz, but its the **ambience** = The sparkle, sheen which we want in these ultra fq range, Some of the wide bands claim, 30k-60khz. Which may be a issue, if simbliance kicks in. Can too high a sensitivity become a issue in this ultra high range?? |
the musicians fingers sliding up and down the strings while playing it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can hear some of this in my DavidLouis 4 incher wide band at 91db. I am sure the new higher sens wide band even notable. Due to higher sensitivity. . Schnittke Cello concertos/sonatas BIS and Chnados. as Reference cds. Wide bands voice music in a magical way. |
william53b OP103 posts07-12-2021 6:19pmFor those who want to know: Frankenstein! https://www.klipsch.com/blog/klipsch-kpt-904-speakers-frankenstein-edition man that is one heck ofa monster. puts my Frankies to shame |
I just wonder what people find acceptable, since I know many people have very expensive, to me, systems that can barely manage 40hz, -0db down.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Money might be able to buy the 20hz-40hz, but at what cost? Lets say a audiophile figures out how to get the elusive 20hz-40hz. Say witha $500-$1000 (EACH!!!)Scanspeak woofer But how is the 300hz-1khz range? A bit muddy? Well thats the tradeoff, Now he has the Golden 20hz-40hz, but he has to live with the muddy 300hz-1khz , AND!!! can the Scanspeak go above the 1500hz to meet the tweeter?? Or cuts off at 1khz?? There are headaches trying to acheive the 20hz-40hz. I strongly suggest, just completely forget the 20hz-40hz. Ain't worth the trouble. My dual W`18's **only*** go to 40hz, but with duals, you get the gut feeling of a 20hz punch. Troel's gave me this insight in his MMT designs. = Dual midwoofers going to 40hz, sounda much solid punch that a single woofer going to 20hz. |
Full range speaker, no problem.. http://pointillistic.com/vmps-audio/RMX.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Very impressive indeed. WOW The Mother of all ribbons. Price?? don't care to know. |
william53b OP103 posts07-12-2021 6:41pmIf I were to build my dream speakers these would be the foundation of them. Scan-Speak 32W/8878T11 Revelator 13" Woofer https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-12-woofers/scan-speak-32w/8878t11-revelator-13-woofer/ Or these in an open baffle, which is the way I'm leaning these days. AE Speakers http://aespeakers.com/shop/dipole/dipole15/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Why the need for a 13 super bass anda 15 inch dipole woofer??? bass on top of bass???? My dream speaker would be Seas W22 Graphene xossing at say 200hz/Mundorf high end caps, and a Vox 5 incher. Thats a huge waste of the W22 Graphene. |
I’m settling for 18” short throw paper cone, extremely light and ridged, right now in my studio. And at about ⅓ power it feels perfect.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'll consder looking at your 18 inch woofer, Also Lii has some high sens 15 inch woofers on the cheap, like $300 a PAIR!!! I will also conisder those as a possibility. I have no idea what the bass will be with the 8 inch wide band. The lab claims 20hz. If it is true the speaker goes down to 20hz, I feel no need to bring in any 15 inch/18 inch sub woofer. Now it will all be out of balance. Besides, my room is only 10x12/8 ceiling. A 15 or 18 will not work. For a 15 or 18 woofer, one needs at least 20x20x10/,minimum |
mijostyn4,659 posts07-14-2021 7:10amdjones, a rising response from 100 Hz down to 20 Hz with 20 Hz up 6 dB does not produce fat bass. Fat bass is produced by a peak in the 80 to 160 Hz region. Pushing the response up at 20 Hz gives you that sense of a live performance at less than ear shattering levels. Push it too high and the bass becomes disjointed, you know you are listening subwoofers. You should never know you are listening to subwoofers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yet another lzaer guided missle. I mean this post really nails it. Subs are *boomy** = un-musical, = anti=musical = anti high fidelity, Bug deal your sub goes to 10hz, I could care less. its Your subs 80-160hz region that makes ** fat* *Ugly* *Boomy* bass distortion, = YUCKKKKyyyy I HATE subs. 40hz is really all you want, as pragmasi has very convincingly shown and proved. Troel pretty much says the same thing about his dual W18's per channel MMT speakers. **paraphrasing **although it does not go below the 40hz, it SEEMS as though the bass hits well below 40hz** A 6.5 midwoofer will have a superior 80hz-160 hz voicing, cleaner, clearer vs a sub. Some audiophiles are obsessed with this **fantasy* 20hz-40hz region. This range represents only 1% of the actual music. = There is nothing there Why go chasing this region employing all sorts of crappy bass woofers?? Get over it. |
pragmasi196 posts07-14-2021 6:43amThis may be useful for some - here's a Sound on Sound page with a link to a frequency chart in the top right corner. Fundamental notes are within the range of 16Hz to 9kHz, with harmonics going much further up in frequency. If you don't listen to a lot of pipe organ music then a lower bound of 30Hz will include all the fundamentals ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Intuitively I figured there was not much below say 40hz, And this chart shows the truth of the fq range of clasical symphony orchesra. This explains why I can not accepta dome tweeter for my classical muisc. There is too many notes bombarding this crucial region for a 3/4 inch voice coil to handle. For those who listen to mostly classical music, your dome tweeter is not **delivering the goods*** You need to go wide band to have a orchestra symphony/chamber sound **Live**. For jazz fans, the dome tweeter is acceptable. But why not go wide band, this way you get your jazz and classical voiced beautifully. I just do not see any more need for dome tweeters, They served us well these past 50 years, its time to let them go. |
pragmasi196 posts07-14-2021 6:43amThis may be useful for some - here’s a Sound on Sound page with a link to a frequency chart in the top right corner. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just took a pic on my CP and blew it up to read. Man I tell you, ~~~The real meat of the muisc starts at 150hz~~~~ Sure the low string on the cello is 60hz, THE LOWEST NOTE that is,, = rarely played. ~~~~ The music starts at 160hz~~~~ Which completely validates my strong belief wide bands are the bomb. You take + have your Wilson.s Wide band is the only speaker I can listen to. Why?? All the music is represented in all its fullest richest, deepest, colors. With zero coration. zero fatigue. Wison’s $360G’s..,,oh its full range all right,, but also full of something else, called deep coloration and distortions. |
An aural and external exciter and a, oh what’s the word I’m looking for???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, you are now aware , which many still sleep. Is there such a driver that can produce music, which elevates the senses to some sort of mystical , Elesusian Mystery Religious experience. Where the sound waves float so effortlessly, so magically through the air molecules, where the speaker itself disappears and we are embraced by this wave of pure bliss, and we become united by this pure high fidelity, , thus losing our identity in this Mystical Oness of Beauty. . I should think this is possible. |
Good Lord OP I had to visit the (open but closed to any SS person) Social Security office today. I'm not kidding ONLY people who don't have a SS card could get a face to face
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Government is getting more weirder each and every day. I could say more, but I don't want to get banned via cancel default. |
pragmasi198 posts07-16-2021 10:08am The entire audible environment for Humans measure at 15Hz - 150kHz. Where do you guys get your information from? Even IF this were true 15hz - 150k hz. who really cares. Orch is 60hz-2khz. Thats all i listen to is classical. |
What would you set as the lower limit of music reproduction for a speaker to be called full range?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you look at the link above giving the fq range of all classical instruments, You will see 60hz -2k hz is the low/high of 90% of the orchestra. Now I just hada experience of a 96db wide band driver. I found ita bit thin and female vocals not accurate. I found the davidlouis 91db far superior in sonics vs a 10x's more expensive wide bander, Seems each wide bad offers something different, just like xover type speakers , each is completely different from the others. The little DavidLouis 4 incher delivers all the body in this 60hz-2k hz that i need ina midrange. But to answer your Q. 40hz is the very bottom, 20hz-40hz is nothing but a fantasy, These fq;'s are so rare in classical makes this area nothing but a empty bag. Same for any fq's over say 12k,, nothing but a fantasy. The only fq's that really amtter in any speaker, horn, wide band, low db sens etc, plannras, ribbons, etc etc , A-Z speakers, any speaker that was ever made.... The only fq's that count is the 60hz -say 3khz tops, really 2k. But i'll extend graciously to 3k. This is where classical music is performed. We should all drop the fq range specs of speakers as a distraction, The only thing that really counts, Is how does the speaker voice the 60hz -3k hz. thats it. This is why I feel my Frankenstein really voices these fq's as a grade A/B speaker. The weak link in the Frankenstein is the davidLouis in the 200hz-1khz range, , only here hasa slight edge on the fq's. Bottom is sweet, top is sweet, Its in the middle fq's where there is a slight *edge*, Which is why I give my Frankenstein's a A/B grading. , Beats Vandersteens, Class C speakers. Thats for sure. Beats Wilsons as well. Class B/C speakers. |
Many claim to be, but how many can handle a full orchestra’s range?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Since a member here graciously posted a link revealing the fq range of a orchestra. FACTS of the matter is 60hz-2khz is the solid core of a symphony instrumentation. How low, how high a speaker does extend/does not extend is not at all to be considered in speaker choice consideration. Its how well does a speaker vouice this critical band width. Wide Bnad high sensitivity is not beefy enough for voicing this band with a significant force factor, = SLAM. The cone material is too thin, there is not enough power to voice a full orchestra. Horns would be best bet, But there are 2 serious issues with horns 1) Big/heavy 2) Expensive 3) Ugly= Not wife friendly This rules horns out. back to xover designs. as the ultimate speaker for voicing orchestra. The only cone material that works for me, is Seas Magnesium. I have not heard their newest Graphene cone, which may be a improvement, I have no idea, they are expensive. Midwoofers voice the 40hz-1500/2khz. Here is where a orchestra's main heart and soul is voiced. Tweeters only add a shimmering I have added a 4 inch wide band DavidLouis and this adds more body and fullness to the 80hz-12khz area, My Kasun 3.5 double magnet 91db paper cone tweeter adds sparkle, glitz to the 9khz-14khz My next step is to find another DavidLouis that tops his 4 incher. I am happy with the 4, but I think we may get something more out his 6.5ers. His cone material on the 4 is not thin like the german labs, , it voices the muisc much different. The DL has soul, has warmth and body. Although the cone is like 3 inches, believe it or not, has some bass kick and highs roll off nicely at around 12k. My Frankenstein is full range but w/o all the distortion issues you will find in speakers such as Vandersteen, Wilson Focal Kharma Klipsch ProAc Sonus Faber Tannoy KEF Revel Harbeth and countless others that suffer The Distortion Issue/Coloration in the critical bandwidth. I have no such major issues in the criticals. Only the DL 4 has some stress and mushiness at peak passages in orchestra. I need to work getting a new wide band 6.5 to make my Frankenstein the best possible speaker. Sure horns will beat it, but the cost involved with horns, its not just practical. |
mijostyn4,687 posts07-17-2021 11:40amYou all have to understand that there are very few speakers that can project under 80 Hz with authority in a normal sized room. The specs are taken at 1 meter. Anyone here listen to their speakers at one meter? This does not even account for what the room does and most rooms are awful when it comes to bass. To me a full range speaker does 100 Hz to 20 kHz. Below 100 Hz is in the realm of a specialty system designed specifically for 20 Hz to 100 Hz with room correction (really speaker correction) and enough power to handle the correction. There is only one speaker made today that is truly one way, flat between 100 Hz and 20 kHz and with a perfect dispersion pattern minimizing room interaction and I'll give you one guess what that is. Hint; it also has the lowest distortion of any speaker and the fastest transient response. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ AS I guessed earlier The 20hz-40hz is nothing but pure fantasy. If you wish to believe in the 20hz-40hz, just great, Don't try to push YOUR fantasia agenda on to my ACTUAL REALITY/beliefs Not even Dr carlosn labs tests could convince me of the 20hz-40hz as **real** music, . Not even his science. I ain't buying. 40hz is all I'll accept at the very bottom. 60hz is where i really begin to say **Music starts here*. The real test of any speaker, From Bose to Wilson's $975,000 speaker, is how are the sonics in the 100hz-2k hz region. This is where all distortion/colotaion is comming from. Which is why i choose Magnesium cone material for my dual mids. This material shows near zero coloration/distortion. The only complaint is the low sensitivity, but as with all things its a trade off. = It is what it is, 87 db sens. You just have to accept this spec as part of the package. Which is why i know fora fact I would not like any speaker comming from Wilson's labs. Wilson uses Scanspeak's, which have rock solid punch, but has a flavoring in the lower mids that i just can not live with, = Grate my nerves. Magnesiusm is the New Midwoofer. Surplanting the old paper composites. I do use a paper tweeter which matches any dome tweeter on the market. This tweeter has zero distortion, zero coloration. Tweeters is not the issue in speaker coloraion, Its the midwoofers where all these nasty resonances come from. Fatigue comes from midwoofers 100hz-1500hz region. |
Here read CAREFULLY, , this excellent summary of Troels, on the distortion in the 800-2khz range and how he notes Dual W18's, **seem* to make bass that goes lower than specs on the paper.. Dual W18's move more air vs a single W22 or W26. Bass has more of a *punchiness*. Troels also gives a big thumbs up for the Cresendo. Why? One of the very few dome tweets to hit 92db sensitivity. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/CNO-25-mkII.htm |
That range is from 26hz to around 12khz including harmonics, but the speakers that can go that low are few and far between
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I've looked over every option from Seas and Scanspeak Every woofer that goes below 30hz, has a paper composite cone. My hifi journey all began with paper woofers. I am trying to avoid this paper woofer resonances. In my experience the magnesium material cones offer best dampening and cleanest upper bass fq's. The Scanspeaks offer a deep bass kick, Seas Mag's superior upper bass/low mid fq's. |
is a bit looney. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ EDIT OK I just read your post a 2nd time, just after posying the response below... Grant it , in some new age electronic music, there is a good representation of the super low, super high fq.s Exception to the rule. Take a very close look at the classical orch fq chart above,,somewhere,,, I downloaded the page and use a IP camera to blow up the image so i can see the main fq’s region . 60hz-2khz I am not sure who started this idea of musical notes within the 20hz-40hz and above 12k hz ~ There is nothing there. If we go to Mr Carlson’s lab and he sets up a testing of these 20-40hz and above 12khz...you would be in shock at how puny, minisclue is the sound force. And then ask Carlson to find these notes within a jazz, classical, or rock LP, he would be at a loss. His gadget meters would only faintly register these hits. Only if we get a bass drum smashed hard by Keith Moon. And a cymbol smash by Billy Cobham. will we see the below 40hz and above 12k fq registered. And when Carlson adds up all the fq’ timings hitting below 40 and above 12k,.,,,would result is1% Its all flufff, WE;ve been propaganadized, pure snakeoil All (well 99%) of classical muisc falls in the 60hz-2500hz. THe purpose of a tweeter is to add sheen and sparkle Tweeter=tweeter, All good tweeters are equal. What makes a tweeter superior vs the other is sensitivity rating. Below 91db is weak and lacks voicing force/power. Also this 60hz-2khz region is mostly carried by the midwoofer,. making the midwoofer the very heart of the speaker. Thus the cone material is most critical in how these fq’s will sound. Which is why I do not like paper in my midwoofers. Magnesium has superior damping character, giving us a much lower distortion/coloration . Which equates to a sweeter, cleaner musical image. |
bache363 posts07-18-2021 7:15amfor good bass 40 hz and up is good enough ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Troels Gravesen pretty much says the same thing about his 40hz+ MMT speakers with 6.5 inch mids. **I don't EVEN miss the 40hz below region with DUAL W18's pumping out rock solid bass** Paraphrase mine. WE've been scammed , chasing this elusive 40hz below fq's. Just more snakeoil in this speaker industry. We all drank from the cup of baloney. |
Many people have noticed something special when they add a subwoofer to their system and have remarked about it here. It seems to add more than just bass. People say things like it adds "air" or makes "everything else sound better." You can only hear at best down to 16 Hz. But you can feel right down to 1Hz if the pressure is high enough
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Agree with this excellent post. Troels mention this **air movement** volume as having the feel ofa deeper bass than what is actually on the graph. I'd rather have dual W22's than a subwoofer. |
There is more to live music than the frequency of any given note especially when it comes to percussion. But, since you insist, the lowest note on a pipe organ is 8.17 Hz. The lowest note on a tuba is 16.35 Hz as is the lowest note on the Bosendorfer Imperial grand piano.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bach's organ concertos **Might** offer a few seconds of these super rare organ notes, At the cost of what?? Crappy upper bass/low mids comming from the heavy duty woofer. No thanks. I do not want/need below 40hz in my system. ~~~However~~~ It would be nice to swap out a W18 for a W22 or W26 woofer. Just for a deeper bass transient.. Whether these larger cones go down to 20-40hz I have no idea. If I can gain bass VOLUME/effects. , swapping out a W18 for a W22, I might make the tweak. But this tweak has nothing with attempting to capture 20hz-40hz, as there is really nothing there in full symphony orchestra... Cello lowest note is 60hz. |
Note carefully what Troels say here **The edge coated driver....but it does make things sound **better** than it ACTUALLY SHOULD,,,as is sometimes the case with drivers displaying significant linear distortion ,,,which can sometimes be SEDUCTIVE,,but none the less ,,,DISTORTED... Vandersteens and countless others,, B&W.s , come to mind here. **Yeah I’ll take em...** Get home,,WOW , love em,,,6 months later,,,haha,,1 years later,,,**maybe I should upgrade or change labs..** haha. Eventually our old friend,,or should i say ,,fiend,,,, the Fatigue factor will come around. happens all the time. Why? The Seduction factor got the best of ya. Not once have I ever felt even the slightest faigue with the magnesium cone mids. Purchased 2004, and believe it or not, had the Thors up for sale at $900, with new Millennium tweets. man would that have been a major mistake... More than likely when I recover from the **Vox Project** I will swap out a W18 for a W22. Not sure if I;’ll go W22E001 or the new W22 Graphene. have to look over magnet weight, lowest hz spec. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/SEAS-W12CY006.htm |
bache365 posts07-18-2021 6:28pmsorry very bad performance ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Interesting. A speaker has to stand or fall on its own. A EQ might upset the natural performance of a driver. The Vox **Full range** was far from *full*, Whereas the davidLouis 4 incher, is truly FULL, rolls off ,,well actually there is no weakness in rolloffs, . Goes nice and low and extends nice and high. Only in the say 1200-2k range there is a slight edge when orchestra gets loud. But in jazz, this lil full range really has some nice *warmish* (Body, substance) voicing. Not colored, not fatiguing. Female voice, very accurate. Its only when a orch is in full swing the upper mids get a bit stressed. But certainly *livable*. **Every wide band will sound different from another I tried 5 different ones, and found this DavidLouis 4 incher offering nice things in such a small package. The other 5 had issues. Dayton Audio 3 inch Diatone 6.5 inch AIYIMA 5 inch Lii Fast 8 (old model) Voxativ = Not all wide bands are the same. |
bache366 posts07-18-2021 8:10pm@mozartfan I did not see Tang Band in you list , this is the Best ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You know I came across this driver, and did some reserach,,then for some reason did not like the voicing ona YT video,, But as we just learned, YT vids do not tell the whole story, as my recent experience in The Vox Project has proved. So here is the 8 incher,, from my fav YTer Hifier, This guy is the best on youtube , He knows his stuff and presents it clearly and HONESTLY. I only wish I could be where he is at in testing high fidelity components. Here is his demo of the TB 8.. I am glad you mentioned the TB's, as i was very close to ordering the DavidLouis 6.5. Not sure what the specs are on this TB8, and more important price, As the Vox Project set me back $800+ = I'm running out of cash... Lets take a closer look at the TB DavidLouis offers 3 different designs in the 6.5. Now i have to think things over........ .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeWdxE7qED0&t=115s . |
csmgolf687 posts07-18-2021 4:53pmThankfully, you are not in charge of anything. Go on, keep throwing money at this trying to cobble together something without ANY clue as to what you are actually doing. It is great entertainment watching you fumble around cluelessly. If you had saved all of the money you have blown in the last couple of months flailing about, you could have actually bought something that sounds good, designed by someone that actually knows what they are doing. By all means though, carry on. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think you have a mis-understanding about my speakers,,, I like the bass from the W18's,,although as you will hear in the YT vid below,, the bass does in fact, when the W18's are isolated, I seem to hear a certain **flabbiness* to the bass. That may NOT have been there pre adding 4uf in the Thor xover design in the bass. Original Thor 8uf. I havea 10uf and just added a 2.2 uf. I am going to tech today and have him remove the 2.2 Mundorf SESGO ($100m each, came out the Millennium xover), I figured lets xover the W18 even lower, with the 10uf, crossed like 1200hz, now crosses 800hz/ WHat I think is going on, is the W18's are being asked to respond to a much lower fq , and they are getting all flabby. The video was orginally intended to be short , only showing the W18's in action,,But the Sony battery kept going and going,,so i brought in the DL 4 inch and also shows my paper tweet in action. You don't have to stay to the end. As it is over 30 minutes. I'd say my sound is good, At least, the coloration/distortion factors are very very low = no fatigue Only in big orch sections do we hear stress in the DL4. I am talking with ebayer now, not sure to go with his white wood cone 8 inch or yellow wood 6.5 cone Both have Neo magnets. If these larger cones hold up under huge orch fq attacks, , then I can say I have a real 1st class speaker. Sure I spennt on the experiementaions past year. But in the end, it may all be worth it. Just have to doge the wife flack attacks, now and then ;-)),, or really :-(( Can't leave comments as YT has me CANCELED due to my comments in the 1st few days of the cv19 thing. Comments section is PERMANENTLY closed off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIn2tfYCjK8 |
mijostyn4,699 posts07-19-2021 11:17amMozartfan, I think you need to listen to a pair of Quads. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WOWWW Indeed!!! WOWW https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaAsse6INeo problem is, are they tube amp friendly?? Do they have that narrow sweet spot, which would get on my nerves. But man do they sound fantastic!!! |
OK vid is loading on YT, Here are a few things about upcomming NEW Video of the Frankensteins. The Frankies beat out Wilson and Vandersteen in some respects. The low bass on the Vandersteens and especially the Wilson's have a superior punch to drum sets. over the Seas Magnesium mids. But having owned paper woofers in the past,, my goal is to be far away from anything paper composite. Paper is not as clean, clear in the upper bas/low mids vs the Magnesium cones. There is a trade off, as in everything audio. We each have to pick the components that work best for our individual preferences, even as peculiar as they may seem to other audiophiles. Grading the Frankensteins, i have no complaints, My year long struggle to attain a world class speaker has been a success, but at a price,,,, these experiements do not come free.. |
1) Pulled out the white stuffing from front port hole where Millennium used to sit = adds bass 2) took out a 2.2 uf in the bass xover = mushy bass, now gone, clean, clear 3) swapped the Mundorf Supreme Silver OIl 2.2 for a Mundorf SESGO 2.2 on the paper tweet,,= nice gain,,, All in all, this lil Frankenstein has bass./mids/highs, clean, very low distortion/coloration in upper bass/low mids. = Fatigue Free I’d say this is a High Fidelity speaker. Not every/just any speaker can claim High Fidelity Status. Sure the Wilson’s has incredible highs, deep bass. But how are the upper bass/low mid fq voicing??? Here’s where the music gets tough. You see, the Vandersteens/ Wilson;’s beats out the Frankensteins on the low bass register, but when we come to the super critical upper bass.low mids,,ahhhh,. now here is where things can get all muddy, sloppy. The mid cone material determines the fatigue factor. I can listen to these Seas all day long with not even a pinch of fatigue overtaking the session. It is non-existent for all forms of jazz. . Except in some full orch symphony there is some stress from the lil DavidLouis. The paper tweet will stand up to any dome tweeter, under $200. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PhXOCibpz4 |
Gut feeling says the Nextel mids from Seas, give more tighter punch in low bass, vs the softer low bass of the Magnesium. But I can feel that paper resonance in the Nextel coated paper woofer, vs the the cleaner, neutral upper bass/low mids in the magnesium. Trade off once again. I'll take the clearer/more sweet, less warm Magnesium over the Nextel.s I think Seas made the Nextel to compete with Scanspeaks superior low bass. Scans are paper composite mids. I just can not deal with that overly warm voicing of the upperbass/low mids, which even a Nextel coating can not mask over. As far as the Cresendo, its 92db. I'd rather think the T35002 with 95 db, and $100 less per tweet, is a better bang. Hard to say w/o comparing side by side. T35005 goes down to ~~~~~1500hz~~~~ wow, don't see that low very often The Cresendo's recommended xover is 2khz. hummm, see my hunch is right, T35002 95db, Neodymium magnet, x's 1500hz. WinWinWin So I'd go Graphene W22/T35002 vs this Bifrost. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgaUQO4lvII&t=10s https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-excel-t35c-002-35mm-mid-tweeter/ Cost about the same, But better bang IMHO |
IMHO Best midwoofer for the BuckBang WOW factor high. Dont come cheap, thats for sure, = bank busters. Worth every cent you pay. High tech will cost ya. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/seas-excel-w22nx001-graph-e0077-8-graphene-co... |
Scratch the T35C002 back to Cresendo. Yeah I know low is 2K, W22 Graph high 2k. Gonna have to xoss at 2khz. The issue I have with the T35C002, is its too sensitive and has too much gain in the upper register. The Cresendo will give more **body* to the lower register and will not extend as high. Its a beefier tweeter. I found the T35C002 has too much sizzle on top end. Oh yes, I love this Cresendo graph at 2khz, ~~~90db sens~~~~ wowow, thats super. This is one heck of a tweeter, Cresendo Magnet weight 53 grams vs T35C002 @ 35 grams. Cresendo Bestbang tweet, https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-soft-dome-tweeters/seas-excel-t29cf-002-e0040-crescendo-f... |
daledeee1201 posts07-20-2021 8:38amThis thread made me look at specs. Many speakers really do well down to 40Hz. I wonder if people overlook the -6dB tucked away in the specs of many speakers and subs. Big boxes make bass easily. But wait, we want a speaker that is full range. And we want one that has a nice look, a nice profile. Oops there goes the efficiency. Here come the monster amps. Once again I have to hear these relatively small boxes make 20 Hz. Oh I'm sorry. My two 10" subs will do 30 Hz at 105 dB. When I received my subs i asked what it took to get down to 20, he answered a box half the size of a refrigerator. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hahaha YOu NAILED it on the head, one hit of the hammer, putting the final nail on the 20hz-30hz coffin. I told everyone it was all a dream, some such elusive fools gold trippin... 20-30hz, do these fq's exist in some reality? Yes, Are these rareites contained in our music? NO HT movie/space age music, yes, But thats not music. Glad you post the truth. Half the size of a frig. No wonder Vox and AER has these massive ridiculous horn set ups. Here is the Cresendo in action female voice. WOW factor high. Blows the Millennium clean out its cowboy boots in a shootout. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP_CUbelIuY |
Full range,, hummm lets see, thinking it all over last night, early this morning. My best bang bet ~~Seas W26, Says Aluminum, but also has the fantastic Magnesium mixed in. we all HATE the almminum from the 80/s woofers. YUCKKK, but this is a compostie = acceptable. 20hz-1000 hz, simple xover, maybe just run it xoverless. Like a full range, not sure get with your Madisound tech geek. This wil be the lower chamber/sepaate from the above mid/high box. Easy cabinet, sealed, porter, front rear however you wish. There’s your bass. Now onto midrange. Seas W15CH002, yeah I know paper, but here we are not dealing with the issues present in woofer paper resonances. I chose this treated paper over the magnessum Hex neo, to bring in warmth /body in this 1000-3k critical range. Not sure, either one would work. I’d try the Nextel W15 1st, doesn’t work, try the magnesium W15 Hex Neo magnet On to Highs 3k-15k. Cresendo w/o a doubt. There is my BestBangBet for a true high fidelity full range. EDIT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, have to go back on the Nextel W15CH002. I much prefer the less warm W15CH002 magnesium, I know roels loves the Nextel, But I have to stay within the Magnesium family So Mids 800-3k will be carried by the W15CH002 Magnesium. Sens is low at 85db , that might be a issue. This is not the Neo Hex W15, this is the brother with the Ferrite magnet system. Still you get an idea how it voices,, GORGEOUSLY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PEU80loDCQ |
I've never made my self clean about the OP's Q;s Full range? Does it really exist? I tried to explain , but have missed being clear on the matter. After speaking with Josh /Madisound on the phone yesterday, we were discussing compromises in designs. He mentioned something that i now see as so true Josh brought up 1 of Murphy's Laws, You can get 2 or the 3, not never 3 of 3 qualities ina speaker. Now i see exactly what he is saying about Seas, vs Scan speaks midwoofers. Its never been my intention to finda speaker that has deep 20-40hz bass. Neither sweetest highs. No. My main searching has been for cleanest mids. Which is why i chose the magnesium. The Seas magnesiusm's can not perfom as a Scan speaker mid. Its a different cone material If you want rock solid drun solos, get Scan speaks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6B6WjAzuc8&t=4s But somewhere you are going to have to make a sacrifice. I;'m willing to give up that rock solid punch, fora sweeter upper bass.low mids which I find the magnesium offers better. Again, if you want nice sizzle and sparkle on the highs, get the Scanspeak tweeters. I find the Seas , though not as sparkley on top end, has a finer body voicing vocals with STUNNING accuracy and perfection. Again a trade off, the Seas lacks that sparkle and sizzle, but a superior bottom fq reproduction. . Hope this clears up what I believe about the idea of full range. |
You can spend more and get less. IMHO anyone chasing after deep powerful bass, super sparkle highs,, might end up witha midrange 800hz-2k hz which may have coloration/distortion issues. I don't know, Seas seems to understand these issues and attempts to achieve a balance of the 3 fq ranges. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/seas-excel-w15ch001-e0037-5.5-magnesium-cone-... |
both of which were definitely full range. He alsways said that to build a better woofer build a better tweeter meaning, of course, that bass quality depended as much on the bass notes harmonics as on it's fundamentals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Your friend was on to something,, ~~Fundamentals~~ YOu see Scanspeak's beat Seas Magnesium in the deepest bass fq.s More punch, kick, But what Seas gave up in the deep bass of the drum percussion, they gain in the upper bass/low midarnge. Paper composite has its own characteristic, and Magnesium has its own particular voicing. __bass notes harmonics**. The bass guitar on the magnesium is unreal, super sweet. THe Scan paper composite just won't work for my peculiar taste. You see Wislon sticks a bunch of drivers in a cabinet offering you true /complete full range, deep powerful bass, sweet glorious highs,, But at the sacrifice of upper bass.low mids, quality control.... Vandersteen is guilty of this mid issues as well, but certainly at a lower price tag. Wilson has a speaker now, approaching close to the $1M tag, (M as in Million!!) |
WEll seems Wilson is defining what Full Range is, the cabinets are fulll of drivers, There is not 1 fq missing. To me thats FULL packed range. Sorry not interested. Seas Millenniumk twee rolls off the top end, but the low mids are super fidelity and voice as accurate as any Magneplanar, Sound labs, Quad 57 human voicing. I think the new flagship Cresendo has extended the top end. IMHO full range is 60hz-12k hz. |
mijostyn4,713 posts07-21-2021 7:22amdaledeee1, absolutely incorrect. Specs as published mean very little. They are taken at one meter in an anechoic chamber. At 3 meters in a real room the story is entirely different. Most speakers start dying at 80-100 Hz with a peak or two below depending on room nodes which results in one note bass. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WOW Very nice info here. You justn saved me from consideringa Seas 2 way with a dedicated midrange and adding a W26 or W22,. based on your info, makes no sense for me to attempt to gain a deep bass than what i already have. Dual 6.5's might in the end beat out a single W22 or even a single W26 Both the W22/W26 on paper go lower, but as you say ina test room, 1 meter. In real time, its a game changer. No, I'm thinking now dual W18's = best bang for the bass buck. Troels pretty much confirms this on his notes about Dual W18's bass punch. |
Anything with a whizzer cone is not full range
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ No indeed, it is not, There is some roll off in the lows/highs. But I can tell you , this lil 4 incher packs a nice lil kick in the upper bass. and highs are not so rolled off, at least for classical music, For jazz, yeah you want more of the shimmer and glitz on top end. I am using it more of a upper bass - upper mids driver. The W18's now at 10uf go up to 1600hzish and so there is a huge overlap with the W18 and 4 inch whizzer, The 4 goesc down to say 100hzish. As i say has some punch for a lil guy Highs aint too shabby either. Vocals accurate, Stress/distortion glares in full orch explosions/huge chorus. But livable. I think folks need to be aware the whizzer full range is onlya LIMITED wide band, Not a FULL range. Again, for my tastes in orch, its more full rich ofa image vs a 1 inch dome tweeter. I'd a whizzer cone can be considered full range as in the sense 90% of the music is voiced by the driver. A better name for these drivers is a 90./ Other **full range** were not even 90% More like 70% of the fq's voiced. making these lower Q drivers , near worthless for my usage/intentions. Lii fast 8 old model 70% DavidLouis Diatone 6.5 70%. The Vox was even lower. |
After trying various types of wide band as a low bass- lower highs driver,,,I've just ordered something I think will put my speaker in the ball park of true full range W18's as bass modeuales, 40hz-1200hz DavidLouis 6.5 , 80hz-,,who knows, maybe like 12khz rolloff and a Seas Crescendo running,,like 4khz-say,,who knows maybe 15k+ hz. There is alot of over lap between the 3 drivers,. For me thats ok, as long as all3 have quality musical reproduction. (= no coloration/no muddy mids/no fatigue) Think of it as a sort of **LIne Array** And this set up is friendly to whatever amplifer of your choice. All are 8 ohms, easy load. I'm running a DL 4 incher, and have pretty good results. Female voice accurate. |
