A full range speaker?


Many claim to be, but how many can handle a full orchestra’s range?

That range is from 26hz to around 12khz including harmonics, but the speakers that can go that low are few and far between. That is a shame, since the grand piano, one of the center points of many orchestral and symphonic performances, needs that lower range to produce a low A fully, however little that key is used.

I used to think it was 32hz, which would handle a Hammond B-3’s full keyboard, so cover most of the musical instruments range, but since having subs have realized how much I am missing without those going down to 25hz with no db’s down.

What would you set as the lower limit of music reproduction for a speaker to be called full range?

 I’m asking you to consider that point where that measurement is -0db’s, which is always different from published spec's.
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Showing 4 responses by ivan_nosnibor

Agree with @douglas_schroeder  that listening to a system with strong output down through 15 Hz is a completely different listening animal than most people would suppose. Whoever said that there's just not that much musical info below 40 Hz was absolutely wack. 

Also recall that "20 Hz" does Not represent the "lowest sound we can hear"...it simply is the lowest sound we can hear that most people can Identify as a **musical pitch** or **tone**. But, there is all kinds of musical information - having to do with tone,  dynamics And spatial relationships - that can easily be felt as well as heard. Not to mention the idea of properly pressurizing a room of a given volume vs amp power vs typical listening levels.

But I certainly agree with others that, more than anything else, it really doesn't just take a custom system (which indeed it does) but it takes a truly custom room. A nice, reasonable, typically good set of dimensions might be on the order of 25 or 30 ft long, by say 20 ft wide and at least 14 or 15 ft tall(!) And kiss goodbye any thoughts of 2x4 construction - you'll need more like 2x12's, instead - floor, walls and ceiling alike. And you will still need room treatments, maybe not as much as in a 'bad' room, but you'll still need them...and EQ.

People do engage in these sorts of projects from time to time, but all that is a major barrier that most people aren't quite willing to try to scale for obvious reasons. The rewards are there, particularly if you're looking to build your next home, or modify you're existing house (if you've accumulated home equity over the years, that can come in handy). True, full-range sound can be had, but, done right, it will come as a nasty sticker shock. But impractical problems sometimes require just plain impractical solutions.

A couple things about room treatments in general: it may look at first like it’s just a matter of picking out what you might think you might need from a vast forest of treatment products that are out there, pro or DIY. The one big problem with any of that is that it will in fact work to some extent. That is, whatever you pick out will work, but how much and at what frequencies? It’s great to say that we can absorb or diffuse by so much at X frequencies. But how do even know where the problem spots in the room actually are to begin with? Are we reducing the right frequencies at the right room locations? Are we in fact making things better or making things worse? We can’t know what to treat and what to leave alone if we haven’t yet done our homework and have visually mapped out where the problem areas in our room actually are...until we do that, then we’re just guessing...the odds certainly don’t favor guesswork simply because the behavior of the world of acoustics typically does not follow ’common sense’ logic...our best guesses are more likely to turn out to be wrong than right. There’s always experimenting, which is good, but measuring the room first is even better. But this can’t be done in a single sitting, it takes Many different readings. It’s tricky, and in the pro arena, when it’s time for that they call in the other pro’s: the acousticians. In the hifi world, that gets pricey, worth it maybe, but still pricey.

But, of all the things you mention above, the drapes idea seem to be maybe your best shot at your biggest bang for the buck here. I mean those very heavy sound-deadening curtains they use in studios, with a thinner outer covering to keep the wife happy. None of the you mention will really do anything to offer much control below 200 Hz, but above, those curtains would be good. But the best part is that you can control how much wall coverage and you can experiment easily by sliding them open or closed...a great way to experiment for yourself. Rugs on the floor if you don’t already have them.

AFA the ceiling is concerned, I’m not sure anything would be effective for the bass. Foam would help only so much in the mids and the highs, but the reason the mids and highs sound so compromised to start with is because of the bass. Too much folded bass energy in the small room creates not only a problem with the fundamental bass note, but also on all the harmonics of that note, as you go up in frequency (and down in amplitude). So you can put foam, fiberglass or curtains down to control the harmonics everywhere, but they are just band-aids. The real trick would be to try to gain room size and volume to keep the bass from bombarding the mids and highs into oblivion. Once the mids and highs are contaminated (mixed in with the harmonics), you can’t absorb your way out of the problem without reducing the good sound along with the bad...so, if you must do it that way, then reducing things by a judicious amount, and no more, is the about only hope there is of applying an optimal treatment, a limited compromise...but it does also help keeps costs sane, since any additional treatment after that point would only make things sound worse.
I’m getting around the ’crappy sounding sub’ problem by going infinite baffle bass (a pair of Acoustic Elegance HTIB 18" woofers) in a somewhat custom built room, the construction of which is on hold due to building prices for now.

But, I’m really sold on IB. All the benefits of open baffle bass sound, but without that one, single drawback when it comes to slam and impact.

I was running out of room in my home for my system as I kept growing the rig. Was also looking for a workroom space to maybe start my own business. Adding onto the house seemed cheaper than moving, and simply building a metal outbuilding and finishing it out on the inside was even cheaper than adding on.

With the equity in my home, I will get a 21.5’ L, 17’ W, 11.5’ H interior listening room with a 1400 cu ft workroom on the other side of the system’s front wall, that wall being made from cinder block to handle the reactionary forces from mounting the 18-inchers directly in the front wall, using the workroom as the rear enclosure.

But, I love how neatly IB sidesteps All the traditional problems of putting a woofer in a box, most of which stem from the air pressure issues fighting against the woofer, regardless of which direction it’s moving in. Completely free pistonic movement that doesn’t ever require anything extra in the way of motor structure, amp power, enclosure size, distortion control, cost or anything else. IB bass works perfectly, well..."right out of the box", uh..to coin a phrase...

Looking at solid, in-room response down to 10 Hz, at the lp, as well.
@mijosytn,

Yes, the fs is 18.4 Hz. Acoustic Elegance is something of a ’Rolls Royce" brand of woofers for many different apps actually (sealed, IB, OB, etc) b/c John, up there in Michigan, takes the time to personally tune the design of each woofer for that particular app and that app only. He doesn’t go in for designing ’dual or multi purpose’ woofers...or off the shelf - he makes everything in-house to his custom spec. Full specs are here:http://http//www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/AE/IB18HT#8%CE%A9
I have the "Apollo" version here:http://aespeakers.com/shop/ibht-woofers/ib18ht/

Gotta laugh sometimes when I visit IB sites and start perusing through the mass graves of the unfortunate souls who have gone before and had fearlessly waded into the swamp waters of IB territory, having heard past tales of glory to be had on the cheap and armed with little more than a tape measure and a skill saw. The sites (like cult of the infinitely baffled and others) are strewn with examples of people who’ve made all kinds of ill-advised major surgery to their homes in an effort to DIY and ’save some money’. In the extreme some of them all but destroyed the resale value of their homes(!) And most severely underestimated the vibration problem. But, I salute those who posted their horror stories and have contributed to my sobriety of mind before taking on this project of mine.

So, going in, I’ve held few if any illusions about how easy an undertaking this all is. I’ve had the last 2 yrs to think things all the way through as much as I could even before I bought anything, let alone broke ground for construction. Many advantages in going for a standalone structure, don’t have to worry about sympathetic transmission to the rest of my house. It will be built on a concrete slab with the system front wall made of concrete block, all interior walls, floor, ceiling will be made of 2x12’s with walls and ceiling having at least a 3" space between them and the damped metal shell (room within a room construction). There will be the unexpected challenges I’m sure, but I will have to allow for that and come up with solutions as I go.

The 18" woofers should be ok. I’ve been using them in my living room in an OB config and their behavior so far has been exemplary. I know you’re referring to the sag as they age, but I’ve intended all along to rotate them once a year to keep the spider material from wearing asymmetrically over the life of the woofer. A calculated risk, as it were, as to whether or not that works, but I’m thrilled with their sound right now, we’ll see.